My homemade .44´s have Shotgun accuracy :-/

[LuckyLuke]

Asking, for some advices when it comes to improving the accuracy of my loads.


There are so many parameters that might matter, so a few tips on what to check first would be great!


Today I´ve used a Ransom Rest + chronograph to check if my .44specials ´walk the walk´.

But I sadly noticed they did not. At all.


What kind of accuracy do you feel is a minimum for a decent revolver?


I would like to be sure that, every time, it is my Fault if I miss that 10p when shooting at 25meter = 27.3 yards

What more - if one cant trust the gun, then who is to blame when placing a not-so-good-shot. Was it the gun? Or me?


(the 10 has a diameter of 50mm = 1.27")

So a accuracy at about 1.1" - 1.2" at 25m would feel acceptable,

ring X = 25 mm
ring 10=50 mm
ring 9=100 mm
ring 8=150 mm

But this maybe is to much to ask of a stock Smith&Wesson 629 6½" ?


Also belive that the fps differs quite alot. What is normal? A few fps?

Some things that I might try out is:

x "slug the barrel" - haven´t done this. The bullits are sized with a lee .430die. Also have a .429 die,..somehow I have a hunch that the .430 are better..

x Barrel? .. I´ve shot a few hundreds of my casted bullits now, about 60% .44special, and 40% .44mag.
...perhaps time to take a look inside it..my homemade Lube might be crappy. (about 1/3 Beeswax and 2/3 candleparafin) Perhaps a good cleanup would tighten the groups?

x Lead. I use range scrap. The hardness probably differs somewhat. I´d say its about 50%Jacketed and 50%lead with some antimon and tenn.

x Different loads/powdertype? Might it be so easy that a somewhat altered amont of gunpowder could tighten the groups?

x Caselenght - Have never ever checked this on my plenty-shooten brass. Although - when I set the bullits, there seems to be no problem as the bullets appear to find the same "shrink-encroachment(google translate..)"-depth

x Some cartridges feels like they need different preasure when seating the bullet, have been a bit puzzled about this. Does the bullets sizes differ? Or is it the brass that differs?....

x Temp when casting. Strange. Today I read that some pro-casters turn the pots on "max"..but somewhere else I´ve read that one should cast at "lowest possible temperature".

x When sizing the bullets I have noticed that some bullits passing the die almost without any resistance at all. Some other bullits, on the other hand, are tough to get through..
-Perhaps seperate the Lee´4-cavity-bullits, and see if any of the cavities might be different when it comes to the sizing?

x Stick to same-brand-brass... I use all kinds, a real mix..noticed though, that the last group of five shots was a decent group. Here I tried to use only one kind of Brass "MRP". But perhaps it just was a ´lucker´..


Late, again. Time to meet mr.Pillow again.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_25055506b8d4ae0634.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6901)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_25055506b8d5476c3c.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6902)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_25055506b8f94e0639.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6903)

[462]

Start at the beginning: Till you slug the cylinder throats (measure with a micrometer) everything else is but a guessing game. You might be very surprised at how large S&W can make them. My 24 and 624 have throats that measure .432", and .430" grooves.

Some say to size to the same as the throats, others say .001" over, take your choice.

After you are shooting a properly sized bullet, and accuracy is still not acceptable, conduct only one experiement at a time.

[subsonic]

Well, it seems you have some ideas of what could be the problem. I suggest going down your list and crossing them off as you experiment.

Your issues where boolits seat with different pressure and slip through the sizing die with different amounts of force is not an un-common observation.

Casting with a consistent temperature is more important that what temperature you cast with.

Eliminate all variables and all things you are concerned about and see if they matter. If you can't eliminate a variable, sort it out. Put the boolits that slip through easily in one pile and the ones that are harder to push through in another - shoot groups with both types and see if it matters. Try the same thing with the boolits that seat with a lot of force.

When I am making ammunition for accuracy, I cast Hot and Hard by water dropping wheel weight alloy. I size to the throats of the gun. I load in full length cases when I can - magnums, not specials. I make sure my cases are trimmed to the same length and sorted by type. I also have had my best accuracy with slow powders at magnum speeds. I make sure I have plenty of case neck tension without sizing down the boolits with the cases, and I make sure my crimps are not buckling the cases, but sufficient.

[HDS]

Start at the beginning: Till you slug the cylinder throats (measure with a micrometer) everything else is but a guessing game. You might be very surprised at how large S&W can make them. My 24 and 624 have throats that measure .432", and .430" grooves.

Some say to size to the same as the throats, others say .001" over, take your choice.

After you are shooting a properly sized bullet, and accuracy is still not acceptable, conduct only one experiement at a time.

I've heard everything from .0005" under to .001" over, but only testing in your own gun will tell for sure.

I currently shoot .001" over (.431") just because I want to use my ammo in a revolver and rifle both. It doesn't seem to affect accuracy that I could detect with my shooting skills.

But yes, definitely check throat size, oversize is less of a problem than undersize though, I had undersized throats and my 629 was utterly horrid with cast bullets until I got it fixed.

[44man]

Loading bench is where things start. The Special is no different. Search about the .44 mag loading, case tension, proper boolits to twist, primers, etc.
You have felt different seating pressures and do not realize how important it is. Are your dies a failure?
Lube and alloy? Beeswax and paraffin is not boolit lube. Search Felix and Ben's Red plus many more.
Range scrap is range scrap. Casting is an art and all boolits should be the same.
Revolver groups? The S&W is fully capable of 1/2" at 50 yards.
You are in the right place but you need to search around for answers.
It gets very hard for the good people here to repeat and repeat.
The hardest thing for me to say is when someone buys dies and expects to duplicate factory loads right away, is he can fail. It takes us years.
Some offered you good stuff but it is the tip of the ice burg.
Subsonic is saying good and his best suggestion it to experiment.
You are at the beginning of the road to extreme love of revolvers and cast boolits.

[bobthenailer]

Theres a whole lot of idosincreys in the ransom rest that have to be delt with to get accurate results , but they do work well for marathon testing sessions!
With the avaliablity of scope mount for almost ant gun today , i sold mine a few yeras ago and now shoot from the bench do my testing with a red dot or pistol scope with excellent results !
With a good load from either a RR or with a scope/red dot you should get a inch or better at 25 yards with cast bullets and a revolver , I have also done a inch at 50 yards with several revolvers & SS handguns with cast bullets, my best is a avg 1 1/4 " group at 100 yards with 1- 5 shot and 2- 10 shot groups with a single shot pistol in 30/20 with a scope.

[76 WARLOCK]

I have a 629 mountain gun that I almost gave up on, 12" groups at 25 yards.
Then I read on this forum about sizing to the throats, mine were 432. With a 432 sized bullet I can get 1" groups if I do my part.

[Larry Gibson]

Switch to a proven lube.

Add 2% tin to the range scrap and don't excede 1200 fps unless the BHN is 12+ or the bullet is GC'd.

What bullet?

What powder(s)?

What charge(s)?

Larry Gibson

[LuckyLuke]

Switch to a proven lube.

Add 2% tin to the range scrap and don't excede 1200 fps unless the BHN is 12+ or the bullet is GC'd.

What bullet? "Lyman 4-cavity 429421"

What powder(s)? "Vihtavuori N340"

What charge(s)? "7.0grain"

Larry Gibson

Also: Federal (not magnum) primers

Only .44magnum-brass - no .44sp.


-Thanks All for the feedback - Really!


Just thinking of all those shiny .44´s that I´ve already casted/sized and..well.."lubed", with my "1/3 Beeswax + 2/3 scented candles"-lube..accuracy might be suffering - but the scent is incredible nice.

Fortunately they are all remeltable. Will check out those other lubes also, promise!

It´s sure is a long road (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzY17CzM68w) - but you guys have shortened the journey by several miles. Thanks again.

[Wayne Smith]

If you have greatly variable pressure sizing the boolits you have different diameter boolits out of the mold. Sizing them gives them all the same diameter, but weight and bearing length will not be the same. Re-cast or group them so you are shooting all the same boolit.

Slug your cylinder mouths - size to that if it is larger than your bore. If the cylinder mouth is smaller than your bore size there is your first problem, the gun's geometry is wrong.

I agree with hardening your alloy some.

That's a start.

[subsonic]

Target 5 & 11 both show some promise.

[MtGun44]

Match boolit diam to throats or +.001" measured with a .0001" rated micrometer,
not calipers, which are not accurate enough. Enco tools online usually has the
Fowler brand (good Jap quality) for $35 or so. Well worth the money.

I have no problems with 8-14 BHN (range scrap to air cooled wwts) in .44 Mag or
.357 Mag at up to 1500 fps book number, not chrono, probably really 1350-1400 fps.

+1 on known good lube, like NRA 50-50 (many brands) or LBT soft blue.

I suggest you try 7.5 Unique.

Bill

[gwpercle]

Also, loads in 44 mag. cases will generally be a bit better than those in 44 special cases . Less jump. and size bullets to fill the throat, that seems to be paramount in revolver accuracy. Clean the barrel really good before you retest and look at the crown to make sure there is no damage. Just a slight nick in crown will play havoc with accuracy.
Good luck....gary

[Larry Gibson]

LuckyLuke

Add the 2% tin to the alloy.

Go ahead and melt down all the bullets you've already cast as with the 4 cavity mould you can recast them rather quickly. Or try them as is over 5 gr Bullseye in the .44 SPL cases or 6 gr Bullseye (N32 will also do). However, the lube is suspect. You can melt off or wash off the lube and relube them with a known lube such as BAC or Lars 50/50.

Use the known lube on the newly cast bullets with the + 2% tin alloy. If AC'd let your bullets cast of that alloy age them 7 - 10 days before use. If you WQ then allow a minimum of 24 hars before use.

Try 8 - 8.5 gr N340 in the 44 SPL cases and 9 - 10 gr in magnum cases.

When you install the M629 in the ransom Rest shoot 18 - 20 magnum rounds to settle it into theRansom inserts and tighten them between cylinders full before conducting accuracy tests.

Larry Gibson

[wv109323]

Just my opinion and experience with .45 ACP loads.
-Slug your barrel and get the correct diameter boolits.
-Make sure the barrel is clean and lead free.
-Case length or Mixed headstamp should not make any difference.
-Range lead should be O.K. if you are smelting lead bullets. If you are smelting a lot of Jacketed bullets and using that lead you may need to add some tin.
-Velocities are questionable to me. The "sweetspot" of .45 ACP is around 725-800 FPS. You seem to be under that with your loads.
-Another thing I would examine is the diameter that you are sizing the neck of your cases to. Most reloading die sets are meant to seat Jacketed Bullets. The die sets are sized to seat a .428 jacketed bullet ( for .44 Mag). When you seat a lead boolit into a case that is .428 you may well be destroying the fit of boolit to the barrel. Seat a Boolit and then pull it and observe the amount of distortion. The RCBS Die Sets designated "Cowboy" are meant to load lead Boolits and are made to different dimensions.
I would think that group sizes ought to be 1" or less at 25 yds.

[theperfessor]

Lots of good advice here. Let me add that the Lyman two-diameter M die or it's equivalent sized to work with cast and not jacketed bullets will make for more uniform neck tension and less damage to your bullets if they're a little soft. And it allows the bullets to be seated straight in the case from the start.

Just my $0.02.

[LuckyLuke]

Only got a caliper..Thanks to MtGun44 I am quite aware that it really isn´t good enough, although I belive it´s a good quality one, ..but still tried to measure some:

Un-sized bullets from the Lyman 4-cav. mould is "Caliper-wise.."
..more or less.. ;-) ca 10.9mm = ca 0.4291

The Lee sizer (.430") sized bullets were..
..quite the same = ca 10.9mm = ca 0.4291
..might be the reason why I feel almost no resistance when
pushing the bullets through the sizer..

All six cylinder throats seemed to be quite the same
= ..ca...10.8mm / .425

I had some big problems when it came to measure the
"through-the-barrel-slug":

As the barrel got 5 ´stripes´..yes..my english is´nt what it should be,
well - how do you measure that`? With an even number there would
be no problem I think, but now it was impossible to measure "straight
through" the slug, instead I measured a bit "off-center". That for sure
messes it up quite badly.

Slugged barrel-slug was (or not...)
10.6mm = 0.4173

The gun is btw a "629-4 classic 6½"


I´ll try to lend/buy a micrometer and try again.


How big should a non-sized Lyman mould bullet be?

If, when measured properly with a micrometer, the
un-sized bullets really are only .429..what to do then?

Order a new mold that casts about .433-435?

All the numbers on the 4-cavity mould:
.right side
Lyman 429421 HV
211
-left side
211 07-12

"429" seems to indicate the size of the
bullets?

[canyon-ghost]

Before you get too carried away, consider weighing the bullets. The lighter ones will have air in them, small air voids. Sometimes that condition is accompanied by rounded bases. I seperate them into light (too light) and medium- heavy categories. You can get by with a one grain variance in weight. Then they'll show up too heavy. At the outside of the spectrum a 1.2 grain variance is as wide as you'd want.

In 44 Special, 7 to 8 grains of Unique really shows no difference in accuracy. There will be one tenth grain load that is better but, they all shoot about the same. I suspect magnum will be higher (8-10 grains) but, should be about as easy to load. If you are seaching for a load, I use five seperate targets (8X11") on a half sheet of plywood and shoot five rounds of each 1/10th grain increment. Then, I take the best load and load that one for consistent ammo. The smallest group wins. You may have to do it twice but, you'll get a smaller group somewhere.

It's finding that 1/10th grain load that shoots best with the consistent weight bullet that works.

44 Special (my revolver) 7.4 grains of Unique, 200 grain Lee, Starline brass and winchester primers.

Good Luck,
Ron

PS: I looked at your groups, some are not very bad. It takes a lot of practice to shoot revolvers accurately. It took me several weeks to get consistent ammo and then I had to reset the rear sight some. I'm still learning it, myself. Just keep shooting and cleaning that gun.

[462]

LuckyLuke,
Sir, it's a shame that more Americans don't have your grasp of the English language, and its spelling and composition.

[canyon-ghost]

Here's the lube I've been using, it's inexpensive. I have a heated lubersizer and use Carnuba Red :

http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/

While 429 indicates the size of the bullet, your barrel slug says the gun is plenty tight for that size. Provided, that you measure the largest point on any slug, it should show that your sizing is fine.

Fine-tuning the powder charge would be my first step. I'd just have to reach a consistent grainage of powder.

And, yes, use the same brass all the time. Change only one thing at a time. Same bullets, same brass, same powder, same primer and then, change the powder charge to suit.

[runfiverun]

the 425 cylinder throats are your problem.
push a boolit through each one and measure again.
to measure the 5 groove bbl.
take your slug, wrap something around it like a thin piece of copper or some plastic.
measure the outside of that.
now measure what you wrapped around the boolit.
subtract twice that, that's your slugs measure ment.
measure in a couple of places to get a good average.

[HDS]

You might try beagling the mold to drop larger bullets, but if the throats are below the size of the groove size of your barrel it won't matter how large you make them. Your measurements sound a bit off to me, possibly because you are using a caliper.

I would clean the throats extremely well and slug them, then measure with a micrometer. I would see if you can find a gunsmith or some other person in posession of a V-anvil micrometer to measure your barrel slugs as well. Though maybe the trick runfiverun mentioned here is also good.

[LuckyLuke]

..

While 429 indicates the size of the bullet, your barrel slug says the gun is plenty tight for that size. Provided, that you measure the largest point on any slug, it should show that your sizing is fine.

I have been measuring the Smallest points of the barrel-slug..but feel that this has to be the correct way to measure?

Surely it is the deepest points of the 'valleys' of the barrel-slugs 'grooves' that I measure?..(hmm..That felt like a really ankward sentence;-)

-not the largest point?

Also, have contacted the local gunsmith today..or as it got kinda late when typing, again, ..yesterday..

He had a bunch of tools needed for the job. Also no problem if I needed help with opening up the cylinder throats. But I will lay my hands on a micrometer first and slug the throats, to be sure that I've got the correct measure. Promise to clean them really well before doing any sluging.

That tip about having a thin cupper or plastic around the barrel slug got me into thinking that it would be possible to measure the largest point of the barrel slug, and then withdrawing the height of the grooves..but a wild guess is that Mr.smith'wesson doesn't pour that much energy into making a 'consistent' deepest points of the barrel, so that might perhaps differ a lot from gun to gun, and if so, then the height of the grooves can't be correctly withdrawed?

Might ad that I wouldn't be particularly surprised if someone here at Castboolits knows the height off the 629-4 classic-grooves :-)

Also had no clue that the die sets might be wrong for lead bullets...I'll check what type Ive got.

So,if the bullet seat with a lot of force, then it might be damaged, 'downsized'(then all efforts of opening up the throats is a waste of time..), but if too little force, then perhaps it won't keep in place when loading 44magnums? So perhaps a quite easy seat, but a rather hard crimp would be alright then. Casting harder bullets would probably help with not damaging 'em.. Well, most important might be to have a uniform seating..also..hmm..this is getting increasingly tough:veryconfu ..but as someone noticed above 'I'm at the beginning of the road..

[Blammer]

knowing what I know now here is what I would do first.

1. Wt all of your boolits, seperate them in groups. USE THE HEAVIEST ones.
(this should eliminate a few variables at once; such as them not "sliding" through the die untouched, and consistent projectiles is also the name of the game when target shooting)
You may notice some differenced in the projectiles once you segregate them by wt. Keep the pretty and perfect ones, remelt the others.

2. Trim brass to all the same length, easy and eliminated a variable.

3. Look down the barrel, if leading is present, clean it and buy some lube to start with. eliminated another variable. when things are good then make your own lube.

4. lead alloy is fine, don't change it

5. segergate brass by headstamp

6. size to .430 and start there

7. load powder in increments in batches of 6 (one cylinder full)

[Blammer]

Here is my best target, I have an extra hole lower than the first five because I thought I kept missing the target, so I aimed lower.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/5-44shots226grNEI.jpg

[practical_man]

Luke,

Larry Gibson and others have given good advice. I have a 5" model 629 that will hold 3" groups at 50 yards. I now use a Mihec h&G 503 mold that drops at 432. I run them thru a .432 size lube die nose first. Lube with LSS BAC lube (a vendor on this site).

In 44 special, 6 grains of HP-38 or 7 grains of Universal work great. In 44 Mag I use 4227 powder with good results. I have tried H-110, 2400, and a host of other magnum powders but 4227 has been best so far. I do intend to tryofferings from Ramshot and AA 9.

Your revolver should easily hold 1,5 inches at 25 yards. I would ask you to check the barrel crown on your revolver. Most can be improved by a simple re crowning with an inexpensive tool from Brownells. You might also check the forcing cone to see if it is leading up. There are lots of other little things on a smith revolver that can improve accuracy with lead bullets. Those two are the most important. Constriction in the frame barrel junction is another common problem.

If your revo shots well with jacketed bullets I would look hard at Cowan and forcing cone.

You should also follow the great advice on improving your casting. I learned a lot of great tricks on this site and I have been casting for a couple decades. This site took my casual hobby and added some real science to it.

I too use range scrap mostly. I smelt in big batches and pour smaller ingots for the furnace. I add 2 percent tin to help flow. Every mold has a temp that it operates best. Experiment with yours to find the best casting cadence. Preheat your mold helps too. And keep it clean and oil free. A little lube on the sprue plate is all I use.

Hope this helps. You can make that revolver shoot. Most of it you can do yourself without machine tools. Feel free to email me if you want to discuss further.

-John

[practical_man]

I have been measuring the Smallest points of the barrel-slug..but feel that this has to be the correct way to measure?

Surely it is the deepest points of the 'valleys' of the barrel-slugs 'grooves' that I measure?..(hmm..That felt like a really ankward sentence;-)

-not the largest point?

Also, have contacted the local gunsmith today..or as it got kinda late when typing, again, ..yesterday..

He had a bunch of tools needed for the job. Also no problem if I needed help with opening up the cylinder throats. But I will lay my hands on a micrometer first and slug the throats, to be sure that I've got the correct measure. Promise to clean them really well before doing any sluging.

That tip about having a thin cupper or plastic around the barrel slug got me into thinking that it would be possible to measure the largest point of the barrel slug, and then withdrawing the height of the grooves..but a wild guess is that Mr.smith'wesson doesn't pour that much energy into making a 'consistent' deepest points of the barrel, so that might perhaps differ a lot from gun to gun, and if so, then the height of the grooves can't be correctly withdrawed?

Might ad that I wouldn't be particularly surprised if someone here at Castboolits knows the height off the 629-4 classic-grooves :-)

Also had no clue that the die sets might be wrong for lead bullets...I'll check what type Ive got.

So,if the bullet seat with a lot of force, then it might be damaged, 'downsized'(then all efforts of opening up the throats is a waste of time..), but if too little force, then perhaps it won't keep in place when loading 44magnums? So perhaps a quite easy seat, but a rather hard crimp would be alright then. Casting harder bullets would probably help with not damaging 'em.. Well, most important might be to have a uniform seating..also..hmm..this is getting increasingly tough:veryconfu ..but as someone noticed above 'I'm at the beginning of the road..

Luke,

I measure largest diameter of bullet. Smiths are 5 groove barrels so it is not an easy task to get an accurate measurement. Blamed give goos advice on starting with .430 die and adjusting from there.

Remember to only change one variable at a time so you
Can clearly identify the problem.

[475/480]

If your cylinder throats ARE .425", that IS the problem. IMHO You will have to ream the throats to at least .429" maybe .430" and size your bullets .430".
.425" is WAY to small, the boolit is being downsized as it passes thru the throats and then are to small going down the barrel to engage the rifling.


Sean

[MtGun44]

Several questions have been asked and not answered.

As to revolver accuracy - if all the dimensions are correct and you make good ammo,
no reason not to be able to do smaller than 2" at 25 yds. I have many S&Ws of
various calibers that can do 1.0 to 1.25" with their best loads for 5 shots with
me shooting with wrists rested between knees in reclining position against a
post.

As to "429" in the Lyman 429421 - yes the 429 represents the nominal "design"
boolit diameter. Molds should cast a few thousandths of an inch larger than the
nominal, but not all do - may change with alloy and temp - but this is a smallish
effect.

Remove the cylinder if you will drive slugs through the throat - hammering will
bend the crane. Support the cyl on blocks of wood and tap some oversized
slugs through to measure the throat diameter.

If your throats are actually .425 inch, this is not going to permit good accuracy
with cast. Please obtain a good .0001" micrometer before proceeding to
modify the gun. If the throats are this small, reaming or lapping out to about
.430 will be a good improvement.

One post indicates you may be outside of the USA - if so, where? If you need
some assistance obtaining the micrometer (not sure if Enco will ship overseas),
I can help.

If you have Unique powder (if you are outside the US, I know US powders are
very expensive) 7.5 gr for .44 Spl and 10 gr for .44 Mag are both loads that are
"known good" - usually very accurate in MANY different guns under the Keith
250 gr designs like the 429421.

Bill

[Groo]

Groo here
All the advice given is good but you should walk first.
The range lead is usually soft and the makeup varies greatly.
#1 Bullet size will change with your mix . The softer /heaver the more lead.
Also the more lead the smaller the bullet will size [ less spring back]
#2 Your loads look a little light, load to keep all shots above 800 to 850 fps
Powders have a "sweet spot" in pressure / load/ speed where they are most constant.
#3 Does your gun shoot jackets well??

My suggestion is to use a mid / burning speed / powder like Unique.
Cast from one pot, weigh the bullets +- 2gr, size .430 , same cases, weight powder +-.1gr
Set load for 800 to 900 fps normal crimp and try ..
Ps. Hunting loads [full power] that shoot 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 inch at 25 will work just fine for most things.

[LuckyLuke]

Several questions have been asked and not answered.

As to revolver accuracy - if all the dimensions are correct and you make good ammo,
no reason not to be able to do smaller than 2" at 25 yds. I have many S&Ws of
various calibers that can do 1.0 to 1.25" with their best loads for 5 shots with
me shooting with wrists rested between knees in reclining position against a
post.

As to "429" in the Lyman 429421 - yes the 429 represents the nominal "design"
boolit diameter. Molds should cast a few thousandths of an inch larger than the
nominal, but not all do - may change with alloy and temp - but this is a smallish
effect.

Remove the cylinder if you will drive slugs through the throat - hammering will
bend the crane. Support the cyl on blocks of wood and tap some oversized
slugs through to measure the throat diameter.

If your throats are actually .425 inch, this is not going to permit good accuracy
with cast. Please obtain a good .0001" micrometer before proceeding to
modify the gun. If the throats are this small, reaming or lapping out to about
.430 will be a good improvement.

One post indicates you may be outside of the USA - if so, where? If you need
some assistance obtaining the micrometer (not sure if Enco will ship overseas),
I can help.

If you have Unique powder (if you are outside the US, I know US powders are
very expensive) 7.5 gr for .44 Spl and 10 gr for .44 Mag are both loads that are
"known good" - usually very accurate in MANY different guns under the Keith
250 gr designs like the 429421.

Bill

Luckily I decided to take one more look at castboolits before going out there and hammering the cylinder..

"Remove the cylinder" - X Check(!)

..thanks..for keeping me from denting my precious 629!


I live in Sweden and think I found me some micrometers:

Found a, well, quite affordable..micrometer at "Jula"
http://www.jula.se/mikrometer-162025
At just 139SEK = 21USD

Apparently it´s good for 0.01mm

Almighty Google :
0.01 millimeters = 0,000393700787 inches
0.0001 inches = 0,00254 millimeters

If I am going to measure between 0.420-0.440:

Then I probably would be quite alright with a "0.01mm / 0.000(393blabla)-micro?

My mind is trying to think of a thing as small as 0.01mm..and well..having some difficulties. When it comes to imagine a thingy only 0.00254mm wide..well.. thats almost ridiculously tiny.. Virus-size?.. :-)

Also located a 0.001mm micrometer, but that one was somewhat expensive.
http://www.esska.se/cgi-bin/esska_se/iboshop.cgi?showd21360!0,241151770421866,365752902 131

So, I´ll choose the easy path here: Cheap & instantly(buy it today), instead of expensive & wait for the delivery..


Also thanks about the info on the Lyman 429421.

However - I cant recall that I saw a "Lyman 431421" when I bought the 429421..?

Until now, I thought that most moulds always casted big enough bullets and that was why we had to buy the sizers. But now I figure that I probably could shoot the bullets un-sized?

[HDS]

You could try beagling the mold to make it drop larger bullets, check this out (need to register if you aren't a member):
http://skytteforum.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=27981

Though if you find that your bore measures .429" then you might not need a new mold or even beagle the current one, a 429" bullet through a .429" bore should work fine as long as the throats are .429" or larger (ideally no more than (.001 larger).

[462]

How to 'beagle" a mould, no web-site registration required: http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/HowTo/Beagling.pdf

[35remington]

Show me a stock Smith wheelgun that is capable of 1/2 inch groups at fifty and I'll show you a unicorn. One must have more realistic results than that in mind; I suggest you apply a more reasonable standard.

Start with measuring the chamber throats and forcing cone and barrel, as suggested. All else is guesswork.

[44man]

Show me a stock Smith wheelgun that is capable of 1/2 inch groups at fifty and I'll show you a unicorn. One must have more realistic results than that in mind; I suggest you apply a more reasonable standard.

Start with measuring the chamber throats and forcing cone and barrel, as suggested. All else is guesswork.
I had many, 5 or 6 29's and a model 27 in .357 that held 1" at 100 yards all day.
Yes, it seems the old ones were better.
My first 29 was hitting targets at 400 yards easy and so was my Ruger flat top.
My old rifles were accurate too, even the 1892 Marlin 25-20 would do 3/4" at 100 with cast and open sights.
Have we gained?

[subsonic]

Show me a stock Smith wheelgun that is capable of 1/2 inch groups at fifty and I'll show you a unicorn.

Get that unicorn out of the barn...[smilie=s:

[MtGun44]

As to the 431421, I have never seen one, but I do have a 431244 which I bought years
ago. Seems to cast about the normal size - maybe they intended it to be larger as cast
diam than the normal molds marked 429244.

Glad I mentioned the "pull the cyl" before slugging. As to the .01 mm micrometer,
that is pretty good, but since .01mm = .00039 inches and our normal 'good' mic will
be .0001, this is not quite there. The rule for precision measurement is that the
tool should be able to measure 4X the required precision. So a .00039" mic will
give you reliable readings at 4X that level, or 0.001575 inches. Not really all that
good for our purposes. For a .0001" mic it will reliably measure .0004", so when we say
we need .431 diameter, then you can for sure distinguish very well between .430 and .431.

If you cannot find a .005mm rated micrometer, let me know, I can get one of the
Enco Fowler mics and ship it to you. .005mm may not be a normal unit, I have
no idea.

I went to Enco's site and they only show .01mm and one .001mm, a $100 unit
that is discontinued. I think you need a .0001 inch unit. Here is the link:

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=16720828&PMAKA=619-3106

under $30 before shipping. You should see if they will ship to you.

As to what is that size, a sheet of paper will usually run about .003" a blond hair about
.001-.002, dark hair is larger. Red can be finer.

Bill

[HDS]

I've got a cheap one but I am considering replacing it with a Mitutoyo digital micrometer, that's something for another day though.

[44man]

As to the 431421, I have never seen one, but I do have a 431244 which I bought years
ago. Seems to cast about the normal size - maybe they intended it to be larger as cast
diam than the normal molds marked 429244.

Glad I mentioned the "pull the cyl" before slugging. As to the .01 mm micrometer,
that is pretty good, but since .01mm = .00039 inches and our normal 'good' mic will
be .0001, this is not quite there. The rule for precision measurement is that the
tool should be able to measure 4X the required precision. So a .00039" mic will
give you reliable readings at 4X that level, or 0.001575 inches. Not really all that
good for our purposes. For a .0001" mic it will reliably measure .0004", so when we say
we need .431 diameter, then you can for sure distinguish very well between .430 and .431.

If you cannot find a .005mm rated micrometer, let me know, I can get one of the
Enco Fowler mics and ship it to you. .005mm may not be a normal unit, I have
no idea.

I went to Enco's site and they only show .01mm and one .001mm, a $100 unit
that is discontinued. I think you need a .0001 inch unit. Here is the link:

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=16720828&PMAKA=619-3106

under $30 before shipping. You should see if they will ship to you.

As to what is that size, a sheet of paper will usually run about .003" a blond hair about
.001-.002, dark hair is larger. Red can be finer.

Bill
Enco is where I buy a lot of stuff. They sell to anyone. You do not have to be a business. Not like Granger.

[35remington]

Nah. No need to get the unicorn out; he's staying put and out of sight.

[Mal Paso]

Just cuz it hasn't been mentioned:

My accuracy went to hell one afternoon. Groups grew to 12" at 25 yards. Next morning, depriming the brass, I noticed primer strikes off center. Pulled out the gun (629-6). The timing had warn and as lube built up and caused drag, the cylinder stopped short of lockup.

I have reamed the throats of 2 629s when the throats were smaller than the barrel groove.

[Ola]

..my homemade Lube might be crappy. (about 1/3 Beeswax and 2/3 candleparafin) Because you seem to have beeswax and you are from the homeland of IKEA, here is a simple lube recipe to start with. It is NOT the best there is but it works quite nicely in revolver boolits (I've also used it without problems in moderate .308 Win rifle loads (450-500 m/s)).

Melt beeswax and ad some (10 %(?)) of this: www.ikea.com/fi/fi/catalog/products/00046786/

Melt the beeswax and add the IKEA stuff, then let it cool down. If the mixture is too hard (takes a long time to soften between fingers), remelt it and add some more. If you have a lubesizer, it is OK when it runs through without heating.

When it is time to eliminate the lube-issue, this is a easy and proven way to start. If there is a difference in accuracy (or leading or something else), then consider Felix and the other fancier lubes.

[44man]

I hate to mention age but I have had a Mitutoyo .0001" mike so long it only cost $30. :bigsmyl2:
Mal Paso, timing does not wear unless you speed shoot and hammer lock notches. CA shooters and speed shooters scare me, they need a lot of money for repairs.
I cock hammers slow and pull the hammer full back.
You might have worn the hand by not lubing the ratchet. I use STP.

[LuckyLuke]

Because you seem to have beeswax and you are from the homeland of IKEA, here is a simple lube recipe to start with. It is NOT the best there is but it works quite nicely in revolver boolits (I've also used it without problems in moderate .308 Win rifle loads (450-500 m/s)).

Melt beeswax and ad some (10 %(?)) of this: www.ikea.com/fi/fi/catalog/products/00046786/

Melt the beeswax and add the IKEA stuff, then let it cool down. If the mixture is too hard (takes a long time to soften between fingers), remelt it and add some more. If you have a lubesizer, it is OK when it runs through without heating.

When it is time to eliminate the lube-issue, this is a easy and proven way to start. If there is a difference in accuracy (or leading or something else), then consider Felix and the other fancier lubes.

"White Mineral Oil" - Alright! Guess I´ll try that one! - Have some, not Ikea, but "bike-white-mineral-oil" though.
--------------------------------

Have been trying out my (cheap.. and only 0.01mm..) micrometer..

Even tried some ´Beagling´ - seemed like it worked just fine! Haven´t tried the accuracy yet - but will soon.

The Gunsmith had some issues when it came to measuring my Barrel-Slug. The average was about .430, but the bullit was quite uneven. He figured that I had probably used a too small bullet-slug.

-Seems it´s only me who measures the smallest part of the bullets around here..the gunsmith also measured the largest part..

Tonight I used my "Beagled Lyman 429421"-slugs (now about 10.95-11.06mm / 0.4311-0.4354(!) when sluging the barrel And the Cylinder Throats.

The Un-Beagled bullets is about 255grains. Beagled ca 262grains. (both un-lubed)

My not-so-good-micrometer told me:

Throats 1-6 was quite even: All had a smallest measure of 0.4287, and a "largest" measure of 0.4291 (..not 0.425 that my caliper lied about earlier...)

Also tried, once again, but with the beagled bullet, to measure the barrel.
I got the largest part of the slug to about 0.428...but then again.. the Gunsmith measured my earlier slug to ca 0.430..so guess I trust him and his "three-point-micrometer" somewhat more than myself..

So, if..I know what I´m doing when measuring the throats, and, if, the slug that the Gunsmith measured - If all this is correct, then it seems that the
Cylinder Throats are ca 0.4287 - 0.4291 and the
barrel ca 0.430

That would be a not-so-good combo, right?

pfff.....well...I´ll visit him once more, with my beagled-barrel-slug plus the beagled-cylinder-slugs..

When ´Microing´ one of my Beagled(unsized ca 0.4311-0.4354)-bullet, After sizing it with the Lee 0.430-sizer, they came out 0.4291-0.4295. Probably my micro arent telling all the truth, or the Lee sizer makes ém too small, or the guy thats doing the measuring having thumbs where they supposedly should´nt be..

Wondering if it´s possible to enlarge the lyman ".430"-sizer to about,,hmm..431, or 432..

Loaded some 50 shots with:
Beagled 265gr.SWC
Vihta N340 8.5gr.
.44Magnum Brass(same-brand)
Federal primers

Also made some bullets for the first time with the 310gr. Lee-"Bear-killer"-2cav.mould. It is a aluminium mould. Got alot of wrinkled bullets before I cleaned it once again + got it back to temp and finally smoking it lightly - then it delivered some nice ones!

Only I mostly would like a really light "target 44spec", that also are quite accurate.

In the field-competitions, most ppl having .38s and even .32s..,..it´s hard as it is trying to hit the targets in those few seconds..with less recoil one has more time to aim and squezzing that trigger!

http://s7.postimage.org/eglnozyyj/Lyman429421_Beagled_To_04311_04354_001.jpg

http://s12.postimage.org/a5eia2grx/Lyman429421_Beagled_To_04311_04354_002.jpg

http://s12.postimage.org/nau0g6anh/Lyman429421_Beagled_To_04311_04354_003.jpg

http://s9.postimage.org/jerufvotb/Lee_310grain.jpg

..forgot to mention that there were Wery even pressure when 0.430-sizing those beagled bullets..

[Mal Paso]

I hate to mention age but I have had a Mitutoyo .0001" mike so long it only cost $30. :bigsmyl2:
Mal Paso, timing does not wear unless you speed shoot and hammer lock notches. CA shooters and speed shooters scare me, they need a lot of money for repairs.
I cock hammers slow and pull the hammer full back.
You might have worn the hand by not lubing the ratchet. I use STP.

No speed or CA shooting but it was a used gun and I have probably put 25,000 rounds through it. Good sharp grooves but the bore is mirror smooth.

I hate to mention age but it's the first rain of the season and everything I broke in my younger days hurts. :groner: