Duplex loads/Pyrodex/2 FG/45-70

[Mr Humble]

Have an 1885 Browning High Wall 45-70, 28" bbl, w/3-9 Zeiss on it. It shoots 300-400 gr jacketed bullets with 3031 sub MOA.
Been fooling around with memories from my youth using 300-400 gr #2 alloy boolits lubed with SPG and duplex loads of 2400 and Pyrodex (back then we used 2 F).
Lyman 457191 with 6 gr 2400 and 44 gr of PD shoots very well @ 50 but opens to about 3" @100. Lee 90373 (dropped from an old single cavity mold bought @ a yard sale for 5 bucks) does not work well although my replica 1886 loves it.
The Browning's bore is like a mirror and accuracy (or lack thereof) doesn't change. A typical PD session is followed by one jacketed load, a double shot of wipeout and an overnight Hoppes soak. A couple of dry patches, bore is a mirror and back to the range finds nothing changes.
As the Lee mold is the only .457 mold I currently own, I'm looking for some thoughts.
Mold seems okay as it will shoot 2" groups on the 86 w/iron sights and ancient eyes.

Also shoot two MZs, a .61 flinter and .452 percussion both with pure lead, 2F and SPG. Have shot both enough to take an Elk and an Antelope but not enough to chase tiny groups.

The Baker and Henry:

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z377/rocketcity1/tororeelmower18/9a6cdc86.jpg

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z377/rocketcity1/tororeelmower18/dh1.jpg
Insights appreciated. Thanks.:castmine:

[montana_charlie]

What is the rate of twist in the rifling of the 1885, and the 1886?

Is that 44 weighed grains of Pyrodex, or from a volume measure set for '44' ?

CM

[Texantothecore]

Slug the barrel on the Highwall and see what bullet it really needs.

[Mr Humble]

As with all black powders and substitutes, "weight" is by volume, not off a powder scale.
Twist is the same.

IME and rifle with a perfect, as new, bore that will shoot the correct jacketed bullets in sub MOA groups @100 yds, will do just fine with a cast boolit 1 to 2 thou over. All slugging would tell me is that it has a .457 bore. It would hardly tell me "what it really needs".
Far more important is the twist, the boolit and load.
BTW it shoots the same cast boolit in 1.5 MOA with pure smokeless loads.
Black powder is not as easy as smokeless but it will shoot with the right mix.

I was hoping that someone with experience with duplex loads might offer some real world experience.

Elmer Keith ?

[montana_charlie]

I was hoping that someone with experience with duplex loads might offer some real world experience.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I was trying to help you figure out why one rifle liked your combination better than the other rifle does.
If your goal is to develop a duplex load from two types of smokeless propellants ... Pyrodex and a straight smokeless powder ... the Black Powder Cartridge Forum is a poor place to ask.

CM

[bigted]

ill adress this only from a blackpowder perspective...never used smokless and the aftermarket stuff.

after much reading and talking with knowledgable folks and some reassoning with my own self i decided to proceed with some experiments with duplex using smokless in nothin more then 10% of the main charge of...[again true blackpowder]...black. i would recomend that a bunch of reading of old loading manuals and books that detail the use of duplex as well as some research on this internet to determine if you wish to proceed with this largely un-tested procedure.

having said this and distancing myself from any liability... ill recount my experiments with duplex.

reasson i started down this trail was to obtain loads that would require no blowing nor swabbing while hunting and shooting in the cold arctic conditions found here in the frozen north in mid-winter. i love blackpowder and want to continue its use during the extreme winter conditions.

loads are as follows...6 grains IMR 3031 loaded behind 54 grains of GOEX cartridge powder for a total powder charge of 60 grains. pushing a lyman 457125 520 grain boolit. did very well and is what i consider the optimum in my efforts. almost completely clean barrel and the ability to shoot as many shells as i desire.

next found is 7 grains IMR 4227 behind 63 grains of the same cartridge powder for a total load of 70 grains powder. pushing a lyman 457643 430 grain flat nose at a respectable pace...again this is very clean and a real hunter in the making.

i endeavored the paperpatch boolits with duplex as well but the accuracy has so far eluded me but the fun factor in those are almost intoxifying. i continue my patching endeavors but with many different loads that do not include duplexing. the fun never stops.

so go with trepidation and much study and enjoy your journey. have fun!!! and friend...USE REAL BLACKPOWDER ???

[Hiwall55]

I'm with Montana Charlie ,seems this guy should be on another forum for his Questions about non Black Powder loads

[Mr Humble]

bigted, thanks for your thoughts on duplex loads. I'll try them as it gets pretty cold here as well !

Insofar as the forum....Pyrodex is a BP substitute and hardly smokeless. I'd bet the farm that there are far more "muzzle loading" hunters using BP subs than the real stuff in their inline, 209 ignited rifles.

As I own two "real" BP rifles and have actually killed big game with both, I think I qualify to consider myself a "real" BP shooter/hunter. I also shoot my 10 bore Ithaca "cannon breech" with both BP and BP subs at trap and regular break 22 or more. Absent a wind I have to trust my fellow shooters to score me as I'm behind a wall of smoke. (it's the top one)

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z377/rocketcity1/file-81.jpg

[Bent Ramrod]

I have a Garrett Sharps carbine in .45-70 that shot well with the Ideal 457124 and 39 gr of Pyrodex CTG with 5 gr Pyrodex RS on top of the CTG, under the boolit. It shot about 2-1/4" groups at 100 yards, with the issue barrel sights.

That is my entire experience with Pyrodex duplex loads. Pyrodex fouling doesn't build up, so it never occurred to me to try duplexing it with smokeless.

[montana_charlie]

Insofar as the forum....Pyrodex is a BP substitute and hardly smokeless.
... "Pyrodex, though man-made and with a variety of additives, still has sulfur in it and is corrosive. It is classified as a smokeless powder by the DOT, and bears little resemblance to traditional black powder in actual weight or grain size. It is a bit harder to ignite than black powder, and is safer to handle, use, and store due to this fact. It is also not as impact-sensitive as is true black powder. Pyrodex is not classified as an explosive as is black powder, and is sold at many chain stores due to this fact. ... "
http://www.chuckhawks.com/difference_black_powders.htm

[TXGunNut]

I'm a huge fan of the Hodgdon company and all they've done for reloading and the shooting sports......but.....Pyrodex is for folks that CAN'T get Holy Black. JMHO of course.

[Grapeshot]

Try using 15 grains of FFFFg (4Fg) for your priming charge and drop your Pyrodex on top of that. Once you compress the load the 4fg and PD will not mix, but the 4Fg will fully ignite your main charge of Pyrodex each and every time. This is how I had to ignite PD when using a percussion Sharps Carbine.

[Mr Humble]

Well had you noted the two rifles I showed and if you know about Pyrodex, then you would know that NEITHER of them will operate with anything but real black powder (of which I have plenty).
I'm not going to waste my time or anyone else's by arguing semantics of how BATF treats Pyrodex.
In terms of application it is a black powder substitute not a option to replace Bulleye, 3031 or RL 22 in any cartridges not originally designed for black powder. If you believe Pyrodex is no good, you are entitled to that opinion. Perhaps. unlike me, you have never used it in "modern muzzle loaders" like the TC Contender or Encore, probably never used the pellets or sabot bullets either.
Any honest unbiased analysis will tell you that they are superior to the traditional muzzle loaders we all love. Since Pyrodex works so well in modern muzzle loaders, there is no rational reason to assume it will not work as well in cartridge designed for black powder like the 45-70.
I asked for real world experience with duplex loading and got TWO on topic response.
The rest is the usual Internet "experts" running up their post count while not really being of any assistance.
Cast up and hardened a bunch of the 405 Lee plain base, lubed with SPG and loaded some with 2400/Pyrodex duplex and some with 4198/cornmeal. We'll give them a try tomorrow morning before continuing the search for the elusive atypical Antelope buck. Passed on seven good typical normal bucks so far but the season runs till 10/31 and the migration is very slow this year due to the mild weather.
Insofar as I'm concerned this is just a "fun" project", I'll keep those interested posted on results.:cbpour:

[Hiwall55]

Now he thinks "pellets" belong in the Blackpowder forum

[Mr Humble]

HiWall, I think if you have nothing to contribute but YOUR immaterial opinions, perhaps you could stop wasting bandwidth with comments that are of no value.
It is MY thread and it is NOT up to you to decide what I should think belongs where.
You are heading toward the troll's cave.

When you can do this with an 1809 British Baker Military .61 rifle USING 2 FG, be sure to let us all know as it would be a contribution rather than just flaming another member ! (BTW, there is no Pyrodex forum, in case you missed it.)

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z377/rocketcity1/tororeelmower18/4f6aa6c9.jpg

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z377/rocketcity1/tororeelmower18/69049bc1.jpg

[montana_charlie]

Well had you noted the two rifles I showed ...
Ignored 'em ... don't care about 'em.
So far, you've posted pictures of five guns ... and not a single BPCR rifle.
But, your thread is about using smokeless in an 1885 cartridge gun.

Your opening post had not a single question in it.
It seemed to be a request for help in picking a mould for the 1885, while wondering why the bullet used in the 1886 doesn't work.
I say it 'seemed' to ask that question, but it could just as easily have been taken as a thread for posting pictures of your muzzle loaders ... another subject covered in a different forum.

I asked a question leaning toward what I supposed you were asking about, and got a curt lecture on how to measure black powder loads ... but no definite answer on the size of your powder charge.

If you actually are loading 44 'volumetric' grains with 6 (weighed?) grains of smokeless, it's probably a pissy little underpowered load only suitable for the 50 yards where you got some degree of performance from it.

But, I don't really know ... because I don't use those propellants. The people who DO are found on a different forum. Get it?

CM

[MikeS]

Mr Humble, comparing in-line ML rifles fired with 209 primers with BPCR rifles are apples & oranges. Just like there are folks that consider pyrodex as closer to a smokeless powder than true black powder, there are folks that consider in-line MLs as being closer to modern rifles than true muzzle loaders. I personally have shot pyrodex, 777, and finally real black powder, and for me (and just for me, you're free to decide for yourself of course) I see no need to use any of the subs anymore, and will stick only with real black powder.

As there isn't a Pyrodex forum, this really is the closest you'll find for shooting pyrodex or black powder thru a BPCR rifle. Now I suggest one of two things, either the purists learn to see Pyrodex/777/whatever sub is mentioned as meaning black powder, OR that people wanting info regarding them just refer to them in your posts as black powder. As there are more purists here that don't want to change their ways, until Pyrodex forums are formed I would suggest anyone posting questions to just refer to black powder, even if you're using one of the subs, and just do the substitution on your end. I mean it's a simple thing to do, both BP and subs are measured using the same methods, so if I tell you to try 63gr BP & 7gr SR4759, than you can just figure on using a BP measure set to 63gr by volume of pyrodex along with the SR4759. No reason for everyone to get upset one way or the other, there's really no reason for either side to be so rigid in their thoughts, but by not mentioning pyrodex, even if that's what you're going to be using is an easy way to not get into pissing contests, and get answers to your questions. BTW, the load I mentioned along with the 4759 is a duplex load I've heard works well. I've never tried it yet, and actually was hoping to see if I could load that load in my original 1887 rolling block without harming it, or if I'm better off sticking with pure black powder loads in it.

[MikeS]

Actually thinking about it further, this IS the Black Powder Cartridge Rifle forum, with Black powder being mentioned right in the title, so really it's the folks that want to shoot subs that should be the ones to keep their powder choice to themselves, and just learn to refer to it as black powder. This will keep the peace here, and as I already said, it's really easy to do the swap between the sub & the real thing on your end. If and when there's a Pyrodex forum, then it would be the purists that would have to do the same IF they desire to post in the Pyrodex forums. I'm not a moderator, just another lowly user, but if I was a moderator I would make that a rule for posting in the BP forums.

[Don McDowell]

Actually thinking about it further, this IS the Black Powder Cartridge Rifle forum, with Black powder being mentioned right in the title, so really it's the folks that want to shoot subs that should be the ones to keep their powder choice to themselves, and just learn to refer to it as black powder. This will keep the peace here, and as I already said, it's really easy to do the swap between the sub & the real thing on your end. If and when there's a Pyrodex forum, then it would be the purists that would have to do the same IF they desire to post in the Pyrodex forums. I'm not a moderator, just another lowly user, but if I was a moderator I would make that a rule for posting in the BP forums.

Or simply post the fake powder questions in the single shot forum.:grin:

[MikeS]

Mr Humble, I have a serious question for you. You mention in one of your posts that the 2 rifles you've shown can't use pyrodex, and I'm curious, why not? I mean I can understand not wanting to shoot anything but black in them, but I see no reason why you couldn't shoot pyrodex in them should you choose to.

And Pyrodex does actually have a place, as somebody else said, it's for those that can't get black for one reason or another, say they live on an island, and shipping it in isn't possible (as was the case when I was younger and lived on an island). Other than to make shipping easier I personally see no reason to use pyrodex rather than real black.

[semtav]

I hereby request the Moderators ban for One month anyone mentioning any powder other than real black on this forum!!!!

Here is a start of people to ban:

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=162479

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=164073

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=165766

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=164800

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=162850

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=162358

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=109065

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=159908

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=157515

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=158939


Just think, If you get rid of those scoundrels, this forum will be as active as that "Handloads.com" BPC forum!!!!



:coffee::drinks::castmine::confused::violin::twist ed::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

[John Boy]

The forum is ...

Black Powder Cartridge (6 Viewing)
BPCR,your place for combining the Holy Black and Brass.

Gee, I can hardly wait for the next 'MR HUMBLE' post. Will it be a couple more percussion or flintlock rifles or shotguns that he wants to show off to us BPCR, note the CR, folks on the forum? Will we see another rack with a front stuffer cradled in the shooter arms? Will it be another condescending post, with a superior attitude toward others?

My suggestion for this thread is - let MR HUMBLE get the last word - and be it the last post for the thread ... to let it become not active anymore ...Bye!

Oh, BTW - don't forget he shoots 22/25 with the shotguns! :groner:

[tbierley]

Am I getting ban for one month because I can not get Black Powder in the area I live? I need to know

[wills]

Am I getting ban for one month because I can not get Black Powder in the area I live? I need to know

The fine folks at powder inc are happy to ship it to you.

[waksupi]

Never mind. I'll deal with as necessary.

[MikeS]

The fine folks at powder inc are happy to ship it to you.

No matter how many people are willing to ship something to you, I don't believe black powder can be shipped via AIR, and some places (like islands) usually only get deliveries via air. Unless the regulations have changed considerably, and I doubt they have. For example, on Long Island in NYS in order for a truck carrying black powder to cross any of the bridges going over it, it was required that the truck had an escort, front & rear, and worse yet, they had to close down the bridge for all other traffic while the truck was crossing the bridge. So while technically you could get the real stuff there, it cost something like $125.00/lb and at the same time pyrodex was selling for $6.00/lb or something like that, I don't recall exactly what the prices were, I'm talking about maybe 40 years ago. So given those kinds of price differentials, how many people would shoot black, and look down on pyrodex? The one pound of pyrodex I had was that old, and I still had half the can, which I used very wisely here in FL, and spread it across the lawn!

I will admit to buying a 1lb can of 777 a while back, just to see what a newer sub is like a while back. Still decided to stick with real black powder. But I think I will go ahead an use up the 777, but I'm not going to use it in my RB, but rather in 45Colt loads for my Ruger Blackhawk. I don't trust the pressures 777 can generate to an old original BPCR gun. In a test of side by side loadings of FFg and 777 in the Ruger, filling both with about the same compression, it's amazing how much stronger the 777 load is, it recoiled almost as strong as a 44Mag factory load does in a similar blackhawk! Even so, when I finish this can, it'll be the last, now that I live in FL black is almost as easy to get as the subs.

[Mr Humble]

Mike, IME Pyrodex is not suggested for or has it ever worked for me in a flintlock or regular percussion rifle, unless you put about 10 gr of 4F under it to ignite it. That prize is not worth the quest as 2F works just fine. I find the flaming going on here to be unacceptable as there are obviously a group of true believers here who cannot tolerate anything that does not conform to their wishes. Since I have been shooting real black powder in flinters, percussion and inline rifles, shotguns and handguns for 50+ years, I know just a tiny bit about it. Anyone who thinks a 400 gr bullet at 1100 fps is a "pooper" load is very misinformed. He best hope he never gets in an altercation with a good shot carrying a 44-40 or 45 Colt rifle fueled with LESS black powder, a MUCH lighter bullet at a LOWER velocity. Assume his knowledge of Rev war "snipers" is ZERO shooting even lighter round balls at lower velocities.

I have 2 pounds of Pyrodex left over from TC Contender in line days and intend to use it up. If I can get it to work fine, if not, it's hardly the end of the world. BTW an 1885 Browning or it's current Winchester twin are BOTH BPCR rifles ...... read the rules.
Probably not "winners" in a match but full able to compete (whereas a genuine Sharps-Borchardt, cannot, so much for "experts" !)

If the results justify posting I will. Those who are anal about picking the scheit out of the pepper, need not read it.

The rifle the other poster "ignored" killed this speed goat very dead at about 90 paces, again with a 400 gr bullet backed by 70 gr of 2F. I hear a lot of yapping but see no photos of game taken that is neither common MZ fare or in country that is tough MZ terrirtory.

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z377/rocketcity1/tororeelmower18/47799b64.jpg

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/z377/rocketcity1/tororeelmower18/dh1.jpg

Not like killing Whitetails from a treestand, which I did for decades,(with a BOW).

Enough, my thread, pirated by trolls, is now all yours (trolls) unless I can get some worth posting results.[smilie=p:

[Hiwall55]

Go to BPCR.net they have a forum for duplex loads

[montana_charlie]

BTW an 1885 Browning or it's current Winchester twin are BOTH BPCR rifles ......
Yes, the Browning or Winchester Hiwall IS a BPCR rifle, and a good choice for hunting or competition. But, you only spoke about one in your opening post.
Since then you haven't mentioned it, nor pictured it, nor even reminded us that you have one.
It's apparent that it was not the reason you came to be among us.
Your entire plan seems to be to browbeat us with muzzle loaders, Pyrodex, and "IME" that leaves us saying "so what?"


In Post #2 I asked for a bit of information to try to help you out.
In Post #5 I realized you didn't want help, and said that you were in the wrong place.
In Post #27 you are still trying to make us play your game, and insulting those who don't care to.

Now, you say you're leaving.
You may feel like taking your sandbox and going home, but the sandbox was here when you arrived ... and there's a reason why it is filled with black sand.
If you ever have a notion to talk about about black powder cartridge, come on back. If not ... well, don't let your Pyrodex clump.

CM

[waksupi]

I want everyone to go look at the sticky at the top of the BPCR forum, "I love Pyrodex".

[Lead pot]

This forum is Black Powder Cartridge BPCR,your place for combining the Holy Black and Brass.

Pyrodex is not a black powder it is totally different as well as 777 or the other subs. It reacts different cleans different pressures can be different if you start with heavy compression that gets used with black powder.

Many of us use this forum for passing information using the black powder to help individuals just starting to use black powder.
I care less what people load there cartridges with! I care less, but I dont want some new guy coming on here and read some of the wrong information that gets posted about the subs and load that stuff like the real black powder and get hurt.
I'm sorry but this how I feel very strong about this.

Your the Boss with the switch and if you feel the need to push this switch to ban me or censor me off this black powder forum feel free to push that button!!

Kurt

[Mr Humble]

Gentlemen, I had no idea what a ruckus this would evolve into. Let's all take a deep breath and realize there are far more important topics than powder types.
Nobody is going to get hurt by loading any of the "subs" volume for volume with the same burn rates, in fact far more chance of harm by using 4F where 2F would be correct.
Promise I'll never use the evil word Pyrodex on this forum again.
Have a good evening, one and all !

[oldred]

Pyrodex is one thing but why on Earth do you keep posting pics of unremarkable muzzloaders in the BPCR forum?:confused:

[MikeS]

I find it interesting that there are so many people posting in this thread about how they don't like subs, don't want to talk about subs, etc. etc. but yet they're still posting in this thread rather than just ignoring it, and going on to the threads that DO interest them!

But I will say that all the pictures of muzzle loaders which are not BPCR rifles, while nice rifles, they're just in the wrong forum, not because of the powder used in them, but because of how they're loaded. When I have a question about my T/C muzzle loader I ask it in the muzzle loading forum, when I have questions about the rolling block rifle I just bought, I ask them here. The chances of getting good answers goes way up that way :)

[wills]

Am I getting ban for one month because I can not get Black Powder in the area I live? I need to know


The fine folks at powder inc are happy to ship it to you.




No matter how many people are willing to ship something to you, I don't believe black powder can be shipped via AIR, and some places (like islands) usually only get deliveries via air. Unless the regulations have changed considerably, and I doubt they have. For example, on Long Island in NYS in order for a truck carrying black powder to cross any of the bridges going over it, it was required that the truck had an escort, front & rear, and worse yet, they had to close down the bridge for all other traffic while the truck was crossing the bridge. So while technically you could get the real stuff there, it cost something like $125.00/lb and at the same time pyrodex was selling for $6.00/lb or something like that, I don't recall exactly what the prices were, I'm talking about maybe 40 years ago. So given those kinds of price differentials, how many people would shoot black, and look down on pyrodex? The one pound of pyrodex I had was that old, and I still had half the can, which I used very wisely here in FL, and spread it across the lawn!



I sure am glad I am a member of this board. I learn so many interesting things here. For example, until now I did not realize Alabama was an island. :kidding:

[oldred]

Not taking sides one way or the other on the availability issue but it's obviously at least somewhat difficult for some folks to get real BP even if it is possible. There is absolutely no question that convenience plays a big part for some folks and I myself was tempted to buy Pyrodex because of this. Unless a person wants a lot of powder, in my case I only needed a couple of pounds, ordering it can drive up the cost substantially unless someone is lucky enough to be part of a group buy for a bulk order. Again in my case I had the choice of paying the extra cost or driving a long distance to buy the stuff, I chose to order it but some (and understandably so) may not want to take that route. So it all boils down to do I want to order a couple of pounds and wait on it plus pay the substantial extra cost after shipping? Do I take half a day and drive the 65 miles to the only place I know that stocks BP? Or do I simply walk over to the sporting goods section at Wally World and pick up a couple of jugs of Pyro while waiting on my wife to finish shopping? Well to me the real stuff was worth the extra cost and the wait so that's what I did but honestly is it so hard to understand why someone else may not want to?

[Mr Humble]

Geeze, I'm sorry AGAIN for posting pictures of black powder muzzle loaders. The Ithaca is not a muzzle loader but not a rifle either so I get another ding. It's like being back in grade school waiting for the teacher to whack you with the pointer (yes back in ancient times they could do that).
I have never seen such a bunch of childish popo over a complete non-event. Wonder if any of you are as worried about what's happening in Libya or Washington as you are over a simple error in an Internet blog ? This will be my last post on this forum as it is clear that, unlike the other forums on this site, a lot of the posters here have a real OCD problem. I'm taking my questions on breech loading rifles that can be loaded with black powder to where the moderator suggested.
Enjoy yourselves and remember, NEVER, use the word Pyrodex in polite conversation ![smilie=2:

[tbierley]

Okay, now that I have your attention, PAY attention. This forum is for sharing information on loading for BPCR type rifles. This means it is not just for competition shooters, that means EVERYONE who are shooting these rifles, in whatever configuration, from whatever manufacturer, or whatever powder they choose to use in them.
Any more condescending remarks, or telling someone to go somewhere else with their question will be deleted. If the person(s) persist, we will take a bit more affirmative action on the subject.
I DO hope I am perfectly clear on these points. hmmmm

[Lead pot]

Mr Humble

I like your rifle, I really do! and it looks like it gets the job done too.

[Newtire]

Well had you noted the two rifles I showed and if you know about Pyrodex, then you would know that NEITHER of them will operate with anything but real black powder (of which I have plenty).
I'm not going to waste my time or anyone else's by arguing semantics of how BATF treats Pyrodex.
In terms of application it is a black powder substitute not a option to replace Bulleye, 3031 or RL 22 in any cartridges not originally designed for black powder. If you believe Pyrodex is no good, you are entitled to that opinion. Perhaps. unlike me, you have never used it in "modern muzzle loaders" like the TC Contender or Encore, probably never used the pellets or sabot bullets either.
Any honest unbiased analysis will tell you that they are superior to the traditional muzzle loaders we all love. Since Pyrodex works so well in modern muzzle loaders, there is no rational reason to assume it will not work as well in cartridge designed for black powder like the 45-70.
I asked for real world experience with duplex loading and got TWO on topic response.
The rest is the usual Internet "experts" running up their post count while not really being of any assistance.
Cast up and hardened a bunch of the 405 Lee plain base, lubed with SPG and loaded some with 2400/Pyrodex duplex and some with 4198/cornmeal. We'll give them a try tomorrow morning before continuing the search for the elusive atypical Antelope buck. Passed on seven good typical normal bucks so far but the season runs till 10/31 and the migration is very slow this year due to the mild weather.
Insofar as I'm concerned this is just a "fun" project", I'll keep those interested posted on results.:cbpour:

Why on Earth did you kick this guy off!? He is really pretty funny to read, has me busting a gut here!