Melting Antimony?

[SWANEEDB]

Can one bust up antimony into small pieces and melt, is the smaller pieces easier to melt, I think I may not be able to get enough heat to get it into melting, what has anyone else done to melt it? I use a turkey fryer and a large cast iorn pot.

[shotman]

best way is start with some pure lead. weigh what you want to mix and start there. Pure is hard to melt in pure form

[zxcvbob]

Do you actually have some antimony?

You probably won't be able to melt it, but maybe it will dissolve in hot lead. It might take a while.

[John Boy]

You probably won't be able to melt it, but maybe it will dissolve in hot lead. It might take a while.
Bet your bippy it will take awhile...
Antimony Melting Point: 630.0 °C (903.15 K, 1166.0 °F)

[Oreo]

Yea but table salt melts at temperatures that turn steel cherry red, yet salt disolves readily in water at room temperature.

Has anyone actually tried putting pure antimony in a pot of molten lead? I'd like to hear a first hand account.

[imashooter2]

Once upon a time, I built a charcoal fired blast furnace to melt a 50/50 mix of pure antimony and pure lead. I used a cast iron crucible and covered the stuff with powdered charcoal to keep it from oxidizing too much. After it was done, the 50/50 mix would alloy with tin/lead at standard casting temperatures. All in all, it was an enormous PITA and I would never do it again. I'd buying type metal or Rotometal's Super Hard instead.

[waynem34]

If you have a forge you can melt it.Iron too,I have a friend that has a forge and really enjoys it.Has one you hand crank.Very small aperatus but has got me to thinking? that my be the way to go.Maybe too far fetched

[garandsrus]

There is special flux that allowa antimony to alloy at normal temperatures. I dont remember what is called. I have some in the garage, along with some antimony. I will look and see what its called when i gat a chance

[Bill*]

For some reason,(I think I read it here maybe?) I believe Antimony will dissolve into a fairly hot lead/tin mixture. Might take a bit of time and some stirring, but that's what I recall-just don't remember where for sure.

[KYCaster]

Antimony will dissolve in lead at normal casting temperatures. The process has been described here several times. It's no big deal.

Jerry

[L1A1Rocker]

There is special flux that allowa antimony to alloy at normal temperatures. I dont remember what is called. I have some in the garage, along with some antimony. I will look and see what its called when i gat a chance

That would be good information to have.

[geargnasher]

I did it the "old fashioned way" one time, tossed some chunks of pure antimony in a pot of near pure lead, threw in some sawdust, and whan that charred I poured about an inch of kitty litter on top to push the antimony down in the melt and insulate the top. Then I turned up the pot full-blast (900 F) and gave it a stir every once in a while. I forget how long it took to get it in there but it was about like ice cubed melting in a glass of water on a 35 degree day. Worked fine. Adding some tin toward the end and reducing the temperature helped a bunch.

Gear

[shotman]

It melts fine at about 800* in pure lead. A little goes a long way to harden the mix. Marvell flux is what I use but it is a boric acid. can get small amounts at a welding supply. Used to flux brazing rods but you do need the flux the first time. Problem with the other types of flux , they burn off too fast at that temp

[runfiverun]

iv'e used marvelux and held the temp to 600-615.
add the tin first.
put in the broken pieces of antimony.
lightly sprinkle on the marvelux like from a salt shaker sprinkle if you use too much it won't work well and will just make a mess of the antimony chunks.
use chunks about 1/4" or smaller and sprinkle on top of the alloy as the marvelux starts to turn wet stir in the antimony chunks and push them under the surface.
go slow on adding both the marvelux and the antimonial ore.

[lwknight]

1. Figure out the end alloy tin to antimony ratio.
2. Make a mix of 10% tin
3. Add the appropriate antimony.
4. Stir stir stir ........
5. Add lead to make the correct alloy.

Tin will be like acid to antimony. Antimony and pure lead is not an alloy but only a mixture.
Even rotometals superhard will slush up and try to float the antimony out till you add tin.

[KYCaster]

You guys are trying to make this too difficult.

I tried the "special flux".....that was the source of most of my frustration.

I first tried Bill Ferguson's method using his flux. He's a fascinating man. He's forgotten more about bullet alloys than I will ever know and I have lots of respect for him......but his flux may work in the AZ desert, but here in the Ohio River Valley where the humidity rarely falls below 75% it's useless. I still have a couple pounds of it here.....it's now a solid block about the hardness of sandstone. Before I can use it I have to crush it, dry it and screen it.

The amount used is critical.....not enough and the Sb doesn't dissolve.....too much and the Sb becomes encapsulated in flux and is isolated from the Pb. Most often I'd end up with varying amounts of undissolved Sb resulting in inconsistent alloys.

The last attempt I made with Bill's flux was going about the same as always....hours of stirring with poor results and lots of frustration. Eventually, I ran out of propane and the melt cooled till I could no longer stir it with plenty of Sb still unalloyed.

Back at it the next day with a fresh tank of propane. I got the melt up to casting temp. and the Sb was gone.....dissolved completely....nothing left but the fluffy ash from the flux.

So.........a bit of experimentation and.............

Melt the lead and hold it slightly above liquidous temp.

Add the Sn.

Add the Sb.........Sb should be crushed to -1/2". Bill recommends +1/8 -3/8 but that's because the fines become encapsulated in the flux and can't dissolve. 3/8" is a good upper limit but slightly larger (1/2") is OK. Fines are OK too, it's the flux that causes the problems. I once bought all the fines that Bill had accumulated over a period of a couple of years and used it all without issue.

Add the flux.........This is important and is one of the keys to the success of the method. I use lubed boolits....yeah, I know it sounds like a waste of good boolits but it's for a good cause.
The weight of the boolits you add should be enough to immediately cool the melt below the liquid temp. Three or four lbs. works for a 100 lb. melt. A handful should be enough for 20 lb. melt.
Don't sprinkle them around, drop them in in one big glob. They will become encapsulated in a layer of solidified lead (if your melt temp is right) which will seal the lube on the innermost boolits and release it slowly as the glob melts.
At this point your melt should be in a slushy state. Stir vigorously until the melt is back up to casting temp.
If any Sb is left undissolved, reduce the temp and add another handful of lubed boolits. That is seldom necessary.

So that's it. Discovered by accident....used successfully many times.

Have fun.
Jerry

[I'll Make Mine]

That's a very interesting method, and I'd be fascinated to pick the brain of a metallurgist (one who specialized in lead alloys) to find out why that works -- but meanwhile, I'll file it in my brain (in case I ever need to add antimony) under "stuff that works and we don't know why."

[shotman]

run has the sprinkle right . I found that WW or pure works. Problem is with ww you dont know the mix you will get. Yes tin works BUT you dont need much tin, so then you have a mix you have to work from. Tin is not cheap , and it melts at a low temp. Is lighter and well????
Pure lead works with the marvell flux. but yes it does draw moisture. thats why its in air tight container. . once it melts then add your tin.
The marvell flux is an acid so dont use it in a casting pot you use to make boolits , as it will rust the cast iron. It will not stay in the alloy but will have some that may be on top of ingots. I wash all the ingots in a soda bath and it works for me

[alamogunr]

Jerry, Is the special flux that Bill Ferguson sold the pink fine granulated stuff? I got some from him several years ago along with some pulverized antimony. I've started a couple of times to try making my own alloy but each time found the flux in the same state you described. By the time I got it dried out and screened, I had lost interest. May try it again but will anticipate the clumped flux ahead of time. As I remember, Bill's instructions emphasized using very little flux.

In your method, is the lube on the boolets critical? would 50/50 alox/beeswax work OK?

[KYCaster]

Jerry, Is the special flux that Bill Ferguson sold the pink fine granulated stuff? I got some from him several years ago along with some pulverized antimony. I've started a couple of times to try making my own alloy but each time found the flux in the same state you described. By the time I got it dried out and screened, I had lost interest. May try it again but will anticipate the clumped flux ahead of time. As I remember, Bill's instructions emphasized using very little flux.

In your method, is the lube on the boolets critical? would 50/50 alox/beeswax work OK?


Yes, that's the stuff. Bill does recommend using a small amount, but you have to get a feel for it through trial and error. Through successive attempts I found it harder and harder to dispense small amounts as the flux continued to absorb moisture.

The melt I described earlier would have been my last attempt had I not stumbled on the method I'm now using.

I've only used two lubes to do this....Thompson's Blue Angel, which I think is mostly petroleum and White Label Carnauba Red which is bees wax based. Both work equally well so I imagine any lube will work.



As for "Why does it work?"..............

I think it's fairly obvious that the key is maximum surface contact between the Sb and unoxydized Pb.

By reducing the temp. to the slushy state it's much easier to keep the Sb submerged rather than floating on the surface where the Pb is constantly being oxydized by exposure to air.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

Jerry

[runfiverun]

the low alloy temperature is the key to how i do it too.
i have used bill's flux and throwing a few boolits with some waxy lube helps.
i think it helps because it wet's the surface and creates an oxygen free zone.
it seemed like the antimony just sat there forever then the oxide layer on the outside broke down [or sumthin] and bam almost all of it stirred in and was gone rather quickly.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

I have an old timer casting friend who buys antimony ore right from the mine in 50 pound bags.
( we have a mine not too far away)
He's smelted it in his shop, I'd have to talk to him again as I can't remember the procedure

[SWANEEDB]

A very SPECIAL thanks to all who responded to this listing, I do believe I have now a few ways to test out on getting my antimony in a liquid form so I can mix and use for bullet casting.

[Mavrick]

Years ago, LETS used to sell pulverized antimony and a flux. I bought a 60# bucket, and still have some left. The flux is snow-white, but is hygoscopic. It clumps up something fierce!
I tried to get hold of LETS a while back, to get some more,. but they no longer deal in either.
I had a little over a ton of w-w, and converted some to linotype-alloy. It worked well, and was worth the time and energy spent...BUT, that flux sure does stink! I was persona-non-grata in the neighborhood for a while...
I alloyed in my RCBS 20# pot, and eventho' in extended my casting day, it was simple enough. In my opinion, it's better to get alloys from Bill Ferguson and add lead or tin.
The flux I used is still available, but only in 50# bags and that's more than enough for ten guys that experiment a lot for a lifetime...if they start young!!!
Have fun,
Gene

[alamogunr]

My understanding is that Bill Ferguson isn't doing much any more. Someone on this board that has had more contact with him than myself can better answer any questions about his situation. As I remember he is in his mid 80's or more.

Bill bought out LETS bullet casting stuff many years ago. Here is a thread from over a year ago that goes into more detail than I knew:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=123046

[Hawkeye45]

I have a 60 pound tub of antimony I got from let's metals back in the early 80's along with the alloyers flux. The only thing I don't have is the instructions on the flux, the label is partially gone. Can any body help?
This is my first post. The best cast boolit is one that hits the target.

Hawkeye45

[KYCaster]

I have a 60 pound tub of antimony I got from let's metals back in the early 80's along with the alloyers flux. The only thing I don't have is the instructions on the flux, the label is partially gone. Can any body help?
This is my first post. The best cast boolit is one that hits the target.

Hawkeye45


Help?...... Yes!

If you want to sell it send me a PM, I'd like to have it.

Jerry

[sleeper1428]

I have a 60 pound tub of antimony I got from let's metals back in the early 80's along with the alloyers flux. The only thing I don't have is the instructions on the flux, the label is partially gone. Can any body help?
This is my first post. The best cast boolit is one that hits the target.

Hawkeye45

I bought one of those 65# tubs of pulverized Sb plus 3 of the 12lb jars and also 3 or 4 plastic jugs of LETS Alloyer's Flux in the mid 80's and I've still got quite a bit that I haven't used as yet. The flux is indeed hygroscopic and is now in the form of solid blocks inside the plastic jugs but that really isn't too much of a problem. I spoke to Bill Ferguson about this and we decided that after breaking up and crushing the flux it could be added directly to the melt without concern regarding the water content. So now I just use an awl to break out a few chunks of the solid flux, drop them into a large mortar that I found on the 'Net for about $5 and crush it up with the pestle that came with the mortar. Then I add about a heaping teaspoon full to the measured quantity of Sb that I plan to add to approx 19.5lb of Pb/Sn melt, shake it around for a few seconds and then, after sprinkling another half teaspoon full of the crushed flux on the hot melt, I drop in the Sb/flux mixture, stir it around and it is ALWAYS fully dissolved in less than a minute. If I'm not mistaken, the instructions on that Alloyer's Flux were to use a tablespoon full or more mixed into the Sb but over the years I've kept decreasing the amount I use and I'm still getting excellent results but with much smaller amounts.

sleeper1428

[alamogunr]

Strange that this post appeared as I was rearranging my shop/loading area. I found a jug of LETS pulverized antimony that I bought several years ago(Ebay, I think). It has a tattered label with instructions. I removed it and scanned it but I'm new to this printer and scanning so I don't know what to do with it now. I can't even retrieve it because the computer says I need to specify a program that it was created by. I have no idea.

One option when scanning was to attach it to an email. I doubt that the recipient would be able to open it either.

If anyone wants a copy, I could mail it. I know how to do that. :bigsmyl2:

One more note. The LETS antimony is very fine. I have some more that I bought from Bill Ferguson that is more course. I would estimate that it is approx. 1/8th" pcs.

[bumpo628]

Strange that this post appeared as I was rearranging my shop/loading area. I found a jug of LETS pulverized antimony that I bought several years ago(Ebay, I think). It has a tattered label with instructions. I removed it and scanned it but I'm new to this printer and scanning so I don't know what to do with it now. I can't even retrieve it because the computer says I need to specify a program that it was created by. I have no idea.

One option when scanning was to attach it to an email. I doubt that the recipient would be able to open it either.

If anyone wants a copy, I could mail it. I know how to do that. :bigsmyl2:

One more note. The LETS antimony is very fine. I have some more that I bought from Bill Ferguson that is more course. I would estimate that it is approx. 1/8th" pcs.

You could take a picture of it and post it here. Best to have lots of light and no flash to reduce glare.

[SWANEEDB]

Just to let all know who responded to this thread, a very big THANKS, yesterday I took my 3lb chunk of antimony and got it into usable stuff. First I smelted down about 6lbs of straight lead, 2lbs 60/40 per cent tin in a small cast iron pot over a turkey fryer, fluxed the heck out of it with cedar chips (a lot), left the dross to keep the heat down on my mix, added my antimony (was in a chunk form), took awhile, maybe 30/40 minutes, I did really turn up the propane but now I have 1/4 lb ingots to add to my next w/w smelt or what ever i'm smelting. Ingots tested out around 95 on my cabine tree tester. Man this forum is great, could not have done this without all the help I got from you all.
Thanks again, Woof woof Gus an me

[lwknight]

Glad it worked out for you.
I knew that all those fancy fluxes were not necessary.
I would like to know how rotometals gets antimony into pure lead.
I do know that when you melt it , the antimony tries to float up and slush up till tin is added in a 1 to 3 tin antimony ratio. I have some 9-27-64 alloy that I made by adding 1 pound pure tin to 10 pounds superhard which makes mixing easy for casting alloys.

[darrowj]

I did this in the past. Had 50 lbs of lead and 5 lbs of Pewter. Someone gave me 5 lbs of Antimony, for free cause they work in a insulation manufacturing plant and got me some. Anyway, I melted the lead and pewter. Then added the antimony. It did not melt. Very concerning for me initially.

Then I used magic flux. I used candle wax from the dollar store (hehe). Over the course of 5 minutes the pure antimony melted right down and mixed in without an issue. I read that this would happen, but it is something else entirely to experience it. No problem at all.

[M-Tecs]

I not have much luck getting antimony to alloy with pure lead but it seems to work well with a lead tin alloy.

[leadman]

I have one of the old plumbers furnaces. I put a small cast iron pot, probably a 1 1/2 quart, melted a measured amount of pure lead, got it over 1,000', added the antimony and stirred. Melted in with no problems.
I did wear a respirator when doing this.
I duplicated Rotometals Superhard and it works very well.