Pan lube help needed for 7.62x25

[ronz]

Hi I’m new to casting and I’m attempting to load for tokarevs 7.62x25 and want them close to factory power don’t have a chronograph yet so have been going by how they feel and the very limited data that’s online so using my very unsophisticated methods trying to get from 1400 to 1600 fps
I’m using a Lee mould 311-93-1R six cavity (LEE90308) need to seat between the lube groves for proper length
95/2.5/2.5 lead I bought from Aaron
Barrels slugged at .301/.311 .302/.313 .301/.313 and .300/.312
.311 is the largest that will chamber if there seated short (both lube groves in the case) will chamber seated properly sized to .309 using a cz m-57 for testing slugged at .313
Using 45-45-10 and tumble lubing until all the groves are full didn’t get any leading but they gunk up the dies real bad and look like **** using any less I get leading (last 1/3 of the barrel) same with lla (short seated wd unsized.311)
I tried pan lubing with wheel bearing grease and bees wax at 50/50 leading was real bad (short seated wd unsized.311)
Have been using wd so far but I sized all the ad and there just over 2 weeks old so can start trying them now

[Boolseye]

I would recommend three things to you:
cast the bullets hard (pure WW or equivalent)
pan lube them properly. Do a search on recipes–it should include wax and grease at a proportion of 6/4 or thereabouts (at least, that's what I use). Beeswax, paraffin, couple crayons for color, crisco, vaseline and JPW are all good ingredients. Do a search here and get all the info you could possibly use. Most people remove the cake and push the bullets out. I leave the cake in the pan and pull them out with a pliers. Works fine for me, barely marks 'em. I let it cool about 15 min, so it's still warm but not mushy.

Finally, a lightcoating of 45-45-10 as well as the traditional lube will assure that they don't lead the barrel. I double lube my high velocity 9mm bullets and it works great.

I recognise that my methods are a little non-tradtional. Take what you like, and good luck.
-jp

[runfiverun]

stop using a boolit that's too small and making up the difference with lube that will be the biggest help.
one light coat on the 313 boolit will be a lot better.

[ronz]

Can’t be done runfiverun wont chamber even if it could be cast that big
Did a bunch of researching before I started casting for the tokarevs most wd and size to .309
Definitely not the best round to start casting for but cheapest j bullets are .13 each
its my favorite round and surplus is drying up and getting expensive
Seeing it’s a harder round to cast for was hoping to find someone that already cast and pan lubed a round on the hot side for it
There are just so many lube recipes :confused:
Was going to try a pan lube of 2 oz paraffin 2 oz bees wax 4 oz petroleum jelly 2 oz lee liquid alox & 2 tablespoons jpw size to .309 then tumble with 45-45-10
Boolseye glad to hear someone tumble lubes after pan lubing I was going to do that but haven’t read about anyone else doing it

[Boolseye]

Was going to try a pan lube of 2 oz paraffin 2 oz bees wax 4 oz petroleum jelly 2 oz lee liquid alox & 2 tablespoons jpw size to .309 then tumble with 45-45-10

I think that may be a bit on the soft side. I would bump up the wax a bit and/or lower your grease levels.

[runfiverun]

i'd lower the vaseline by half,the alox by half,and cook down the jpw from 2 to 1.
and try that.
you could also just add some beeswax to your 45/45/10 recipe i add 25% and still tumble lube with it, it makes a nice thick coat closer to a 22's.
i know most tokarovs are smaller bbl'd and tighter chambered.
but i'd try to chamber the biggest i could reliably get to do so.

[ronz]

Was thinking that as I was coping it
Sorta messed up and put the whole bottle of lla in so hope this works
now its 7oz bees wax 4oz paraffin 4 oz petroleum jelly 4oz of lla and 2 tablespoons of jpw
That’s a lot closer to 60/40 might still add some more wax depending on how it turns out

[ronz]

I can get the .311 to chamber if I seat the boolit .085 deeper but have chambering problems seated normally want to try .310 but will need to order a sizer just have the .309 for now
Needed to make some more 45-45-10 so did use cooked down jpw for the pan lube

[mac60]

ronz - I cast for my Tokarev using the same mould you're using. My bore slugged at .311. No matter what I did I couldn't get the gun to function reliably until I started sizing .309. I can't explain that, but that's the way it worked out. For lube I'm using modified Emmert's (50% beeswax, 40% crisco, 10% lanolin) and pan lubing. I don't have a chronograph either, my load is 7.0 gr. of blue dot and it's a stout load. It shoots well and the gun functions 100% with minimal leading. I make my brass from 5.56 range pickup brass.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_16526506b6a1d0843e.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6897)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_16526506b6a4e7e3bf.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6898)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_16526506b6b15c8a15.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6899)

[JHeath]

I think the sizing/chambering issue is that the chamber neck is dimensioned for a .308 or .309 bullet plus the thickness of the brass. When you try using a .311 bullet to fit the bore, the case neck won't fit the chamber because it's stretched to fit the bullet. I have Tok project underway and studied this.

My plan, once I get around to it, is to ream the chamber with a .340 reamer sold for brake master cylinders for about $40. The nominal dimension of a Tok chamber reamer is .337 at the neck, so another 3 thou should fix the problem.

Also, I want to shoot 311316's (115gr gas checks). So I might try reaming the chamber neck deeper as well, and make my brass from .223's with extra-long necks. I already started converting brass and playing with the dimensions. I'm waiting on a 31R expander plug for my Lyman M2 die body. I think it will leave my converted Lake City brass close to the right OD for the .340 chamber without reaming or outside turning.

When finished this fall, I'll have created a 7.7x29mm Tok Express. Either that or ruined it.

But if does work, it'll be like having a super-flat, compact 9-shot .32-20 or .327 or .30 Carbine; that looks like a blowback 1903 Colt, but locks like a 1911.

The other hurdle I anticipate is that the 29mm cases will be too long to eject. I'm shooting for 29mm because that matches the 31116 crimp step at my max OAL. But Toks are notorious for throwing brass into orbit, and I think I can solve both problems by filing back the ejector lug to delay the ejection until the long brass has cleared the barrel hood and ejection port. The question is whether cutting the ejector lug back far enough for the long brass to clear the port will also cause it to stove-pipe (ruined the fire control group plate, BAD) or cause it to drop my hard-won cases a convenient 5' away (success).

Also, a 311116 seated to Tok magazine depth will leave the gas check below the neck. With crimped gc's I think this is okay. And the lower lube groove should be just inside the neck, which would prevent contact with the powder.

My fall project. I'll let you know how it works. If you try it first, let me know.

[ronz]

From what I have read would say about 75% use .309
Do you seat yours between the lube groves?
Cast and lubed up 30 if this one don’t work going to try the lube you use
Going to load some of these up with 7g of blue dot
I a bunch of 5.56’s converted to 7.62x25 ordered a 7.65 mauser trim die :groner: :killingpc thinking it was 7.63
Only have a couple hundred brass need to get that dang sizer so I don’t have to spend a half hour looking for the last few

[mac60]

I think JHeath might be onto something there. The jacketed bullets in milsurp ammo measure .307, so what he's saying makes sense to me. When I make brass for this thing I inside neck ream - which leaves the neck thickness at .011 - I'm using 1.268" for an oal. I'm pretty sure the lube I'm using isn't optimum (but it's all I had, so I had to work with it) - I got me a Lyman 450, but money's tight and I gotta save my pennies for some size dies/top punches.When I get the lubesizer up and running I have some of randyrat's TAC#1 to try and I've got everything together to make some Ben's red. I really struggled to get the Tokarev to function 100% - first it was boolit diameter then powder choice/load. But when I got worked up to 7.0 gr of blue dot it was just what I was looking for. That container of brass in the picture (450 pcs) took me about 5 hrs. to make, but it didn't cost me anything (free is good). Anyway, I'd be interested in how it works out for you - oh, and JHeath that goes for you too.

[JHeath]

Mac60, I am thinking about reaming out my sizing die neck to produce a formed neck OD of .337. Then if I ream the chamber neck to .340, the case-neck-to-chamber clearance of my formed cases should be correct. Basically, I'll make the chamber dimensions match the bore size like they're supposed to. Then form brass to match.

A bullet diameter of .313 (my bore is large) plus .002 to .003 clearance = .314 to .316. Subtracted from an OD of .337 it would leave me an allowable neck thickness of half of .021 to .023. Which equals .0105 to .0115.

Which is pretty much exactly what you're running.

If I ream my sizing die neck to produce a .337 OD brass neck, I might even be able to seat .313 boolits without inside-reaming the case necks after forming. Not sure, been experimenting and think the dimensions are close.

Haven't researched how to ream the sizing die neck, whether the reamer is available or if the steel is too hard for that to be possible.

Apologies that this has digressed from the subject of lube, but it's about getting bore size correct to prevent leading that lube won't solve.

[ronz]

No apologies needed boring out the chamber was one of the first things I thought of
Along with just about everybody else who ever even though about casting for the 7.62x25
Definitely is something I’m interested in knowing more about and would be the cure for the tokarev dilemma

[JHeath]

That reamer I mentioned above is actually a valve guide reamer, .340 seems to be a common size. I just bought one on eBay for $23. Clark "The Destroyer" Magnuson rechambers Toks to 9x23 with drill bits, and how could anybody go wrong with him as an example?

[ronz]

What about just using a properly sized rods and grinding compounds

The lube & 45-45-10 worked only a little leading with the tokarev and almost none with the 9mm

[mac60]

Good deal then. Is function 100%? Recluse's improvement of LLA works in every application I've tried it on - namely .38 spl. and .45 AR. If you're getting 100% reliability and minimal leading I'd say you're there.

[ronz]

Think it was the combination that worked with the undersized tok rounds
I bought some cast 160g for a 38super that leaded real bad (also undersize) going to try tumbling them in some 45-45-10 just to test if that will made them work

[ronz]

When I try pushing the boolits out of the wax block I always get some missing lube
Would the most likely cause be the wax or just because the boolits and wax grove is so small?
I made a cookie cutter from a spent case that works good but slower than being able to push them out

[mac60]

Are you letting the lube cake get rock hard? How are you pushing them out - base first or nose first? I don't let the lube cake get totally cold. As soon as the cake releases from the pan I remove it from the pan and punch them out base first. A few are missing a little lube, but almost all of them have the lube groove full all the way around. I tried the cutter and found out why some people call it "pain lubing". To me, it's far easier to push them out of the cake than to fool with a cutter. I'm sure there are others who feel just the opposite - it's whatever works for YOU.

[ronz]

Have only tried it 4 times or so usually let the wax cool overnight only tried it once with the lube still a little warm same results I only get around 75% of them properly filled
The lube I made is fairly soft think adding some more bees wax too harden it would help?

[ronz]

Was thinking about how to make a cookie cutter that worked better
Going to try a spring loaded cutter cut the whole pan then dump them out

[ronz]

Tried pan lubing some 9mm same problems so must be the lube
Put the new cutter together worked ok but think the spring I bought is too strong going to try to put a t handle on see if that helps

[rbuck351]

I neck turn the case to about .011 to allow a .312 sized bullet to fit and it seems to be working pretty good. Before I could get boxer brass I used 38spl brass by machining off the rim and cutting an extractor groove, sizing then trim to length. Real pita but it worked well.

[ronz]

I used an unknown to me military 30 cal berdin primed piece of brass for the cutter had to take the rim down so it would fit in the t handle just chucked it in the drill and hit it with a file not as fast going as I thought it would be but still was easy to do and used a chamfer tool to put an edge on it worked pretty good when wax is still warm but still needs some improvement

[ronz]

Rbuck to make 7.62x25 brass?