Heavy 30-30 bullet loads

[JudgeBAC]

I am planning on shooting, in a 30-30 Marlin 336CS, the RCBS 30-180 FN which casts at about 190-200 gr. depending on the alloy used. I have read some prior threads suggesting using H4831SC. I cannot find any loading data using this powder. Also I have two eight pound canisters of Accurate MRP which has a similar burning rate to H4831. What loads with H4831SC would be appropriate and what loads would work with MRP?

[felix]

Use full case of either of these powders to bottom of neck. Adjust downwards slightly to see if more accuracy can be obtained. If not, go back to full case. ... felix

[JudgeBAC]

Thanks Felix, I forgot to ask, which primer, regular or magnum?

[felix]

regular.............. felix

[Whaump 'em]

I tried flatening the nose on the Lee C309-200RN, left them long and single loaded them in a Mod. 94. With 32-34gr of IMR 4831 and CCI 200 primers there were no signs of excessive pressure. Interesting execise but not as accurate as the 170gr (Lee's C309-170FN).

[Glen]

The RCBS 180 shoots very well in my 30-30s. I like to use Jim Taylor's load of 26.0 grains of H335, which delivers about 1900 fps or so and very good accuracy.

[G. Blessing]

I tried flatening the nose on the Lee C309-200RN, left them long and single loaded them in a Mod. 94. With 32-34gr of IMR 4831 and CCI 200 primers there were no signs of excessive pressure. Interesting execise but not as accurate as the 170gr (Lee's C309-170FN).

Any ideas on velocity with that 200grn boolit? 8-) Nice to know there were no pressure signs.

I'm looking at getting a 200grn to around 1900 to 2000fps if I can, in my Win94. Trying for acuracy and impact/strenth comparable to an 30-06 at 100 yards max., for alaskan moose... Why? mainly because I want to see if I can do it. ;) (within safe pressures, obviously) and I can't afford to get a 30-06 for hunting this year. :cry:

anyway, the manuals I have stop at 170grns, nor had I found any data for heavy cast, (or jacketed for that matter) online. Nice to see I was right to come and see if ya'll here have any ideas. :-D

G.

[w30wcf]

JudgeBAC,
I sent you a PM.

G. Blessing,
A few years ago I sent some .30-30 cartridges loaded with a 205 gr. bullet to a ballistics lab. The powder was H414 (same as W760). You can see the ballistics / pressure here.
http://www.loadswap.com/comments.php?table=Rifle_Data&id=1812

There was some published .30-30 data for 190 gr. jacketed bullets in the 45th edition of the Lyman Reloading Handbook. Barrel length 26"
This Handbook dates back to 1970, so use it as a reference only.
Winchester 8 1/2-120 primers were used.

IMR3031/27.0/1,978/39,000CUP
IMR4064/29.0/2,013/39,400CUP
IMR4350/33.0/1,955/36,000CUP
Ball C2/29.5/2,012/36,900CUP

PLEASE NOTE: The SAMMI MAP (Max. Average Pressure) for the .30-30 is 38,000 CUP, and some of those loads exceed that. Also the powder tested back then could differ from today's production.

w30wcf

[Junior1942]

I use that bullet @ 195 gr Ready To Load with Varget to 1850 fps in a Win M94 30-30. Don't go beyond 1900 fps. Out to 100 yards, that'll kill any moose in North America.

[G. Blessing]

Thanks Gents!


"This Handbook dates back to 1970, so use it as a reference only. "

Heh, well, some of the powder I have, also rifle, is that old, so it would be great... if I could trust the consistancy of powder having been sitting here for that long. ;) j/k

"IMR4064/29.0/2,013/39,400CUP"

Thats one thing I was looking for, before I thought to try for a slower powder. Knowing how far over pressure this type of load would go, with that powder. Too far IMO. Good to have the datta.

http://www.loadswap.com/comments.php?table=Rifle_Data&id=1812

Will look into that powder, see if I can get a small amount from a buddy maybe.

To be honest, I have no quams about a standard load with 170 grns for this intended purpose, but I have this idea stuck in my head now.

I don't believe I'm going to admit this here ;) but.... I was hoping to do this with a jacketed flat or round point...Not sure why, maybe since I've never loaded jacketed before; kill new ideas with one project.

Anyway, thats out, went through all six brands at the local shop, nobody makes one bigger than 180, and I'm not going to bother for only 10grns diference...

Ordering molds this weekend. :D

G.

[w30wcf]

G. Blessing,

Nice to know there is another enthusiast that has some vintage powder!:-D

Regarding the best cast bullet for your purpose, the RCBS 180 that Junior recommends would be at the top of the list. I have that mold also (bought in 1980) and in w.w. + 2% tin alloy bullets weigh 190 grs. w/gas check. It's a shooter.

Junior's mold drops bullets closer to 200 grs. The difference between his and mine is that the g.c. shank is slightly longer......probably what current production is.

Regarding the Lee 200 RN, I would recommend the RCBS over it since it has no crimp groove at the location that would allow you to feed cartridges through the magazine. That could be remedied with the use of a Lee Factory Crimp die though. The other reason is that the RCBS would be somewhat more accurate since when crimped, the front driving band is in front of the crimp, whereas on the 200 Lee, the front driving band would be inside the case neck.

Here is a 50 yard target shot by another who used the 180 RCBS in his .30-30. Load was 29.0 / Varget (similar in burning rate to 4064). Good shooting! (Possibly that load was taken from the data at "Juniors" website.)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/Trails650/100_0148.jpg

Note: THere are 2 different RCBS 180 gr. bullets. You would want part #82014 .30-180-FN. For a picture of the bullet, go to this link and scroll down the page. Thanks, Junior!)
http://www.castbullet.com/shooting/heart.htm

Have fun,
w30wcf

[G. Blessing]

I'm pretty sure that at least 2 of the 4 cans of 4064 I have date back to the late 70s, from when my Dad lived in the bush. All 4 are metal cans too, I noticed that nobody seems to sell it in metal anymore. If it was properly stored, cool dry place, tight cans, etc. It shouldn't have gone bad....?? For that matter I don't know if it could go bad...??

http://www.castbullet.com/shooting/heart.htm
Lol, I didn't make the conection between his post earlier, and the name, site, and article! That article was one of the things that first kept me going with this idea, I knew it wasn't a looney idea.( or at any rate that I'm not the only one looney enough to try it ;) )

I do believe that the history of the 30 WCF that I have from another forum is yours... Good read! :)

I'm going to con my Dad into splitting the price of a couple cans of powder. He can try them in his 30-06. Come to think of it, we've never gone over 170 in it either... hmmmm.... ;)

I'll come back and post my results, after I get into this further. The main thing I'm waiting for other than getting molds, is for my chronograph to get here. :D

G.

[Bret4207]

You'll be duplicating the good old 303 Savage load. That was considered quite a thumper back in the day.

[G. Blessing]

Funny that you mention the 303 savage, I used the 300 savage as a basis in working this out.

I hope you fellows can follow this, its perfectly clear in my thoughts and the notes I took as I went along, but I'm having a heck of a time structuring it...

I got to adding and subtracting and extrapulating yesturday afternoon. The powder that I had, the 4064, I had decided was too fast for this aplication. Got some 4320 from a friend. From the data I have, it's soposed to be slower. Slower, but comparable;

All data used is from my Speer #13 manual.

Between the two powders, same velocity (within+/- 90fps), same charge, same bullet in the 300 savage. Aplied for both 170 and 200 bullets . Meaning that the powders were comparably in presure/velocity gained, one just gets there slower.

2 grains powder decrease for every 10 grains bullet increase, in both 4064 and 4320 for the 300 savage.

The same 2 to 10 ratio decrease/increase is also used for the 30-30 with the 4064, it just stops giving you data when it gets to 170grn bullets.

SO, I started with a 28grn (rounded from 27.5 for even numbers..) starting load for the 170 in the 30-30, and subtracted 6 grains for the weight increase to 200. Subtracted 2 more grains for good luck/good measure.

Thats 20 grains of 4320.

Components being; once fired, full lenth sized Federal brass(from power shok) CCI Magnum primers. Nosler partition soft point blunt nose 200 grain bullets.(weighed at 200.5 grns)

Now, these bullets are a bit pointier than I'd like in a tube mag, so I lightly taped the exposed lead tips with a hammer(2.5# shord sledge. [smilie=1: ) Just upset the curve and made flat noses out of them.

Also, with the seating depth that is needed, the case comes well above the crimp groove. Luckily, where it crimps is just a hair before the tip taper starts. Heavy crimp aplied, it actualy started to slightly indent into the jacket...

Loaded 2 rounds, prayed, and fired them. was like a .22LR. from my marlin mod60. no recoil. Acurate at 12 yards.. ;) NO high presure signs.(flattened primers, primers bulging into rim around them, hard extraction...)

I proceeded to load 5 more rounds, each with an increase of 2.5 grains;
22.5, No difernce to the 20, slightly more kick, but not much. acurate at 50 yds.
25, No pressure signs, recoil like a 22Mag rifle... acurate at 50 yds.
27.5, Slightly flatter primers.Kick like my plinking round of 28grns 4064, with the 170. acurate at 50 yds.
30, No primer or pressure sign change. still extracts good. kick like federal power shock with 170s. Still quite acurate.
32.5, same as 30 above, slight more kick. Yes, still acurate.

Acurate meaning they went where I aimed them, within 2" +/- (off hand, standing, at pop cans/wood chunks.... or I would post a target pic)

Anyway, I'm extremely happy with finding a low enough starting point, especialy for fudged and adapted data from one powder to another, and from a diferent cartridge.

I didn't blow up the gun. ;)

Happy that I ran it up to a recoil and sound that feels healthy, with no visual, or felt problems. :Fire:

I am stopping at this point, until my chrony gets here. Will see what speed I'm getting, and calculate the impact ft/lbs. Will see then if I want to continue upwards or not. Also will have comparable data for actual pressure levels(A more educated guess realy).

Besides that, when it gets to 37.5 grains, I'll run out of case and have a compressed powder charge. Not sure if that is something that is doable or not.... (haven't read about compressing smokeless charges)

factory round,200grn bullet used, and 170 grn cast I usualy load. Seating depth comparison to factory round. Deep ain't it?
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e163/Ice-Tigre/Shooting/200-30-30/seatdeapth.jpg

Original tip, and flattened;
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e163/Ice-Tigre/Shooting/200-30-30/tips.jpg

From left to right, progression of flatening of primers, from 22.5 to 32.5 garins.
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e163/Ice-Tigre/Shooting/200-30-30/rims.jpg

Recovered bullet from first shot with 20 grains, at ~12 to 15 yards(angled into a 2"x6") Too bad I didn't recover anything from the 50yds shots.
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e163/Ice-Tigre/Shooting/200-30-30/recovery.jpg

Gary.

[MT Gianni]

I would clarify that I used 303 savage data rather than 300 savage data. Gianni.

[G. Blessing]

Hmmm, yes I did use the 300 savage data, not the 303. had meant to say that it was funny that he mentioned another savage cartridge. Now that I look for it, I don't have data for a 303 savage.

G.

[Bret4207]

None of those primers look even remotely flatened to me. Could be the camera, angle or screen.

[w30wcf]

G. Blessing,

Back to the 1970 Lyman Reloading Handbook.
For reference only:
190 gr. / IMR4320 / 29.0 / 1,903 / 36,400 CUP

With the bullet projecting that far into the case, pressures will increase.

A word of CAUTION. I would advise not to read max pressure for a .30-30 by looking at the primers. A load producing 10% over SAMMI MAP in the .30-30 will appear the same as a load at SAMMI MAP.

And a flattened primer would be WAY OVER PRESSURE for the .30-30.

Oh, and yes, I did the piece on the .30-30 cartridge history. Thank you for the kind words.

Stay safe!
w30wcf

[G. Blessing]

Taken to heart(and head). Thank you.

http://www.castbullet.com/shooting/heart.htm
I am also checking them as in that article (case head expansion), any other ways that I can use to get this info? (short of a spending a fortune for chamber presure testing equiptment ;) ) I was going by the methods/presure signs taught in my Speer #13 and lyman cast bullet books.

To be honest, I am fully satisfied to stop here. I just "needed" (you know, that little "can I?" voice) to know if I could do it, and shoot it, and have an intact rifle and hands afterward. ;)

I would love to fine tune this and make sure its safe, but I get the feeling that I don't have what is needed. In knowledge and equiptment.

But, I can gain knowledge.....

Going to stop here until I can get a velocity reading, and have that much more information.

G.

[Whaump 'em]

Any ideas on velocity with that 200grn boolit? 8-) Nice to know there were no pressure signs.

I'm looking at getting a 200grn to around 1900 to 2000fps if I can, in my Win94. Trying for acuracy and impact/strenth comparable to an 30-06 at 100 yards max., for alaskan moose... Why? mainly because I want to see if I can do it. ;) (within safe pressures, obviously) and I can't afford to get a 30-06 for hunting this year. :cry:

anyway, the manuals I have stop at 170grns, nor had I found any data for heavy cast, (or jacketed for that matter) online. Nice to see I was right to come and see if ya'll here have any ideas. :-D

G.
I test at 220 yds. on a 10" steel plate, after sighting if I'm not hitting 50% the load goes no further, so none were put over the chronograph. Recoil was more noticable than 170gr with 26.5gr of H 335- these average 1950fps. Info on loading for 200gr lead was posted on this board, and checked with "Load from a Disk".

[Marlin Junky]

I wish someone else would try this boolit in the 30-30 with 33 to 34 grains of H-380. I've never tried this combo in a carbine but it's a winner in a 336 24" rifle. Velocity is near 2100 fps using wheel weight metal seasoned with a dash of tin.

MJ