Adjusting Nose Forming Swage Die - Improving Bullet Quality?

[MUSTANG]

Any recommendations on how to better adjust the Bullet Forming Die on a Corbin .224 Swaging die set to improve the quality/looks?

I finally overcame my problems with derimming 22LR cases for jackets (see post: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=162994 ) , but now I am encountering difficulties in getting a consistent, well shaped nose.


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/22090506795014acf0.bmp (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6862)


The top picture is my very first try at nose pointing the jacket/cores.

The bottom is what I am getting after doing about 100 seats. I have sorted all the jackets by headstamp; and sorted the cores into (+) or (-) 0.2 Grains. All cores have been through the Core Swager; original cores were 3 to 4 grains over desired weight before core swaging, after swaging they were nominally 52 (+) grains. The Jackets are nominally 10 grains, but can weigh as much as 10.5 grains; even in the same headstamp. I am getting completed bullets that are 62.4 to 62.8 grains.


As I am setting up the Point Forming die; I adjust it a few turns at a time and repeat until I get the nose mouth just a little larger than the ejector punch. I then turn it in about 3/4 to a full turn because the mouth seems to "Bite Into" the ejector pin on ejection if it is not closed enough at this last adjustment (mini-hollow point) resulting in difficult ejection and the bullet stuck on the ejector pin.

I found that if I leave a "Large Hollow Point" at the nose I get failure to feed in my Savage rifle as the mouth grabs instead of feeding into the chamber. A fully filled lead nose or "Mini-Hollow Point" is definitely required for feeding in my Savage Axis, and I expect will be the same for the AR-15. I suppose I could go down in weight some if required, but am targeting a 62 grain completed weight.

Also: Any recommendations on polishing these bullets is appreciated. I use a Harbor Freight Ultra Sound Cleaner with 50/50 Water/Vinegar and a dash of Dawn soap for pre-during-post cleaning operations. Also tumble in a Corn Cob medium, but can't seem to get them to shine very well when completed. Brass cases do not seem to be as much of a problem.


Mustang

[DukeInFlorida]

.22 LR brass only works for up to 55 grains (with "Normal" brass), with the lead just barely filling the closed nose. As you know, the Corbin set leaves a very large metplat. With 62 grains, you'll always have lead sticking out the nose (again, with the "normal" brass. The lead won't be pointy. It will be a cylinder, much like the top photo, bullet on the left.

I'm guessing that what you are missing is the measuring of the derimmed brass before stuffing in the cores. And, I'm also guessing that you're using a variety of various manufacturers. The Federal and a couple of the other manufacturers use thicker brass walls on the .22LR. Those will get "extruded" during derimming, and be longer than the others.

Take some of your derimmed brass, and measure the diameters and lengths.... Are you seeing length variations?? I'm guessing that the longer ones are the ones which give you the better 62 grain bullets, and the shorter ones are the ones with the lead cylinder really sticking out the front. YTou might have to start sorting the raw brass by manufacturer, and using only the ones giving you the longer results.

Let us know what you are seeing for derimmed lengths.

Also, I am getting much more accurate cores when swaging them in two steps. I chop the wire to +2-3 grains. I do an initial core swage and strive for +.5 grains. The final core swage is right on the nose for weight. When I was trying to hit core weights on one swage, it wasn't coming out all that well.

And, core SEATING of that accurate core into the derimmed (and annealed) brass was about as critical to the final result as was the point forming. If you don't squeeze the air out from the seated core, the variations in the nose will be unacceptable.

[MUSTANG]

MUSTANG,

I'm no expert on lead tipped rifle bullets as I generally make open points in .30 caliber.

First question. Are you using a lead tip die to finish the point or are you attempting to do it only with the point form die? In my experience any exposed lead tip will be deformed by the ejection pin in the point forming die and the only two options are to live with it or get a lead tip die.

If you are using a lead tip die, try increasing the core weight a bit or closing up the jacket a little to expose more lead so that the internal punch of the lead tip die has enough lead to form into a point.

Hope this helps.

PB

Phineas:

I am only using the Point Form Die as delivered with the Corbin Set (Some 20 + years ago - the swage set was in storage and unused all that time).

My goal is a bullet that is either a very small (ejection pin size) open point as you are producing in .30 cal (i.e the M118LR projectile), or a very slight lead tip, at 62 grains. The 62 grain goal is to replicate the weight of the M855 Ball so sights remain same in my AR-15. I know the M855 is a bit longer for the same weight because of the penetrator and non-lead core in the M855.

[MUSTANG]

.22 LR brass only works for up to 55 grains (with "Normal" brass), with the lead just barely filling the closed nose. As you know, the Corbin set leaves a very large metplat. With 62 grains, you'll always have lead sticking out the nose (again, with the "normal" brass. The lead won't be pointy. It will be a cylinder, much like the top photo, bullet on the left.

I'm guessing that what you are missing is the measuring of the derimmed brass before stuffing in the cores. And, I'm also guessing that you're using a variety of various manufacturers. The Federal and a couple of the other manufacturers use thicker brass walls on the .22LR. Those will get "extruded" during derimming, and be longer than the others.

Take some of your derimmed brass, and measure the diameters and lengths.... Are you seeing length variations?? I'm guessing that the longer ones are the ones which give you the better 62 grain bullets, and the shorter ones are the ones with the lead cylinder really sticking out the front. YTou might have to start sorting the raw brass by manufacturer, and using only the ones giving you the longer results.

Let us know what you are seeing for derimmed lengths.

Also, I am getting much more accurate cores when swaging them in two steps. I chop the wire to +2-3 grains. I do an initial core swage and strive for +.5 grains. The final core swage is right on the nose for weight. When I was trying to hit core weights on one swage, it wasn't coming out all that well.

And, core SEATING of that accurate core into the derimmed (and annealed) brass was about as critical to the final result as was the point forming. If you don't squeeze the air out from the seated core, the variations in the nose will be unacceptable.


Duke:

The Corbin set I have produces a 6S ogive. I am able to get the 62 grains I seek, but with the nose variations as pictured.

I believe that the 62 grains is "Right at the Edge" for the Corbin .22 set with 22LR jackets.

I believe as you infer, the small weight variations in my cores and jackets are the principle cause of the nose variations. In a week or so, (Heading to San Francisco for Fleet Week and some sailing on the Bay with the Son later this week) I'll cast some more cores and see if I can get better consistency in cores using the double step core swaging as you describe.

I'll also try measuring the derimmed jackets (width and length). I am already sorting by headstamp. I have been weighing the jackets and see that there is considerable difference in weight for derimmed cases of the same Headstamp. As an example, "F" stamped heads have weighed from 10.3 to 10.8 grains. Obvious that "Consistency" is necessary for accuracy, but sure seems that there are a lot of variables not immediately apparent when one begins swaging.

Mustang

[MUSTANG]

This morning I went out to the Range to see what some of the swaged bullets I made from earlier this week would do in my Savage Axis .223 Bolt Action rifle, as well as my AR-15. (Click on picture to enlarge).


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_2209050691283848f1.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6880)


This swaged bullet with a slightly flat tip, fed well in the AR-15 with no jams. It was an absolute feeding failure in the .223 Savage Axis Bolt Rifle as every round hit and bound up on the edge of the barrel, failing to enter the chamber as the bolt stripped the round from the magazine. Had to hand insert each round into the chamber.

I am disappointed in accuracy so far. Both rifles are being tested from a bench rest using scopes, not iron sights. The same 26.1 Grains of WC844 load produces better accuracy with surplus 62 Grain M855 ball in both of these rifles, granted I weigh the surplus ball and segregate all rounds into 1/10th grain increment bunches for loading.


Mustang

[MUSTANG]

Phineas:

Made up some nominal 80 Grain lead tipped .224's from 22LR jackets last Saturday. The nose pointed out much better on these. Had a slight dimple formed in the lead nose where the ejector pin pushed the round out of the dies. I think your correct, a nose form die may be the best solution, but at Corbin's price of over $200.00 for the Lead Nose Pointing die, it may have to wait a few months.

The well formed tips were deformed when I loaded them in the cases using a Lee RGB die set (see loaded rounds). I have an old Hornady New Dimension die set in .223 that I'll try next time instead to see if the spitzer nose seating die in it will work better. You can see the change from seating deformation in the below picture comparing the as swaged to the same bullets in the loaded rounds. (Click on the picture to enlarge).

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_22090506b991b468e9.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6904)


I used seven cores that were slightly heavier than 70 grains, and swaged each of them down to get a core of about 69 grains. These were then swaged into seven Jackets of the same headstamp. These were then loaded into FC headstamped brass with CCI small rifle primers. The powder charge was 23.3 grains of Accurate 2460 powder. Test firing achieved a seven (7) round group of 1 ¼” X 1 ¾” . Hopefully I can work this into a better group. This degree of accuracy would be slightly larger at 200 yards than the X ring of an NRA SR 200 yard target. Not quite the accuracy needed for those 500 to 600 yard targets.

The attached pdf is the load and performance data for this effort.

Mustang

[MUSTANG]

Loaded and tested another 5 Rounds using 80 Grain Swaged .224 Bullets with 22LR Jackets this morning. Group measured 3/8" wide x 1 & 1/4" Tall.

One of the holes is a double shot hole; not a key holing bullet.

See load data attached as pdf file.

Mustang

[randmplumbingllc]

I find that Federal cases work best for 62 gr. .224's.

Try adjusting your time dwell in the down stroke. Too much time and they will produce pig snot.

You will also want to check the size if your ejection pin.

I believe my Corbin pin is .062 My dies are 6s ogive.

Just a few thoughts. I have made a few thousand 62 gr, with federal cases. They are full to the top, with a pig snot every 50 bullets.

You might want to try a few different things. Good luck !

[MUSTANG]

I have continued to work on die adjustment and my swaging technique to improve the quality of the noses on my swaged bullets. Strangely, I have found that it is easier to make better quality (more pleasing appearance?) bullets in the 80 Grain weight than in the 57 to 62 grain range. I have had some moderate level of success with shooting the 80 Grain bullets made from 22LR cases in load development. (See post #35 and #36 of the following link)


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?160094-WC860-in-223-5-56-Yes-But&p=1930442#post1930442


I am still trying to come to grips with the Corbin .071 ejection pin for the Nose Forming die. I keep occasionally getting the open tip/cavity stuck on the bullet when I eject bullets of the 55 Grain to 62 Grain weight. At times it will penetrate down into the lead 30% to 60% of the length of the bullet. I have to use a pair of needle nose pliers to hold the bullet, while using the swage press arm o the reverse stroke to pull the bullet off. Each time there is adequate lube, just the wire pin pushing into the nose cavity compresses into the lead core and binds.:evil:

Two weeks ago while swaging a few bullets, it stuck in a bullet, and as I attempted to remove the bullet using needle nose pliers and the press arm, the original pin that came with the .224 Swage set pulled out of the punch. I ordered a package of 5 pins from Corbin and got them within a week. I was initially concerned that replacement of the .071 wire pin into the punch would be difficult; but it turned out to be easier than I thought. A bit of acetone to loosen up/clean the old loctite out. A 25 mile trip to the store for another tube of loctite (the one in the work bench dried out), applied the loctite, a minor press of the pin into the Punch hole, and 30 hours later when the loctite had cured I was back in business.

Mustang

[Reload3006]

are you pinning your ejector punch when point forming. If it is not fully retracted when you start to swage your bullet it will be inside the works and get swaged together. Pinning your Core swage internal punch and your core seat internal punch is optional it makes things work faster but doesn't cause problems. But the point form Internal punch must be pinned to prevent it from not fully retracting and getting swaged in with your bullets.

[MUSTANG]

In my quest for a better (more aesthetic?) nose on my swaged bullets I hit on the idea of replicating the polymer tip that several commercial vendors offer. My first thoughts were that I would have to build my own since I did not want to buy the aluminum or plastic tips Corbin offers. My first efforts identified Commercial Injection Molding equipment; but they ranged i price from $10,000 to $250,000. I found hobbyist equipment in the $850 to $2,500 range, more than the cost of a set of dies for .223 bullet swaging. I found a few DIY set-ups on You-Tube, but building my own Injection Molding System and dies for making the Nose tips would be very time consuming and the results could be unsatisfactory given my limited machinist skills. :shock:


I finally had a Google hit that provided a means of using AIR-SOFT plastic pellet balls (BB's) as a polymer tip:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?68643-How-I-make-my-ballistic-tip-bullets
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40keW-W373w


I ordered some AirSoft 6mm BB's via Amazon and tried the process ALGUNJUNKIE showed in his You_Tube video and got the below results:

I am not content with the results. The bullet tip is not only indented by the .071 wire pin contained in the ejection punch, but it also has many of the noses with one side higher than the other (see picture).

I discovered it is critical that the AirSoft BB be pushed far enough down into the pointing die that about 2/3 of the .223 Jacket/Core is inside the Nose Swaging die, or you will have a collapsed jacket as seen in the center of the picture. Another consideration is to ensure that the BB is not pushed into the Bullet Nose shape of the die, or the BB will not be pushed into the Jacket mouth. A slight amount of this condition can be seen in a couple of the Swaged Bullets in the picture, note where the Polymer has flowed down the bullet past the mouth of the Jacket/Core.

I used a 45 Grain Core. In the later part of his Posted Thread, ALGUNJUNKIE stated that he found success with a 40 or 41 grain core. I may have to drop the core to that weight. It would result in a bullet of 55 to 52 grains since the .22LR Jackets are ~ 10 Grains. (Air Soft BB is ~ 1.5Grain)

I'll keep experimenting with this because I really want a 62 Grain bullet to go with the 80 Grain lead nosed bullet that I am having success with.

Mustang

[MUSTANG]

MUSTANG,

Duke is correct, when derimmed, a .22 LR case will produce an open point style bullet of about 55 grains, any heavier and the bullet becomes a soft point. Purchasing a longer jacket defeats the purpose of drawing rimfire cases, which is saving some cash.

I just looked at the price of a lead tip "M" die and got a case of sticker shock. It's been a long time since I've purchased any swage dies. What you want to do is make the nose look a bit better. Mostly cosmetic, the nose is going to get beat up cycling through your AR anyhow, and in the real world a perfect tip won't make any measurable difference. However, I understand the cosmetic issue as I like to make good looking bullets as well.

Since reforming a lead tip does not take much pressure you may be able to use your bullet seating die as a ersatz lead tip die. Find a soft point bullet with a profile similar to that produced by your point forming die. Use that bullet and some epoxy to make a seating punch for your bullet seating die. With a bit of luck, if enough pressure is needed to seat your bullet, the perfectly fitted seating punch will reshape the lead tip as it seats the bullet into the case.

Just read your last post (8:21PM). You may have to play with the seating depth to get the round to feed in your savage.

PB


I tried using my bullet seater dies as a "Poor Man's" bullet nose shaper. Filled the seating nose with epoxy and formed it with a military FMJ round. I was unable to adequately reform the nose using this process. I thought about the Whidden Bullet Pointing Die System, but given the initial cost being greater than the Corbin Nose Pointing die I have not pulled the trigger either way. I may have to go with the Corbin Lead point Forming die. My thoughts are that it might work on the nose of both lead and polymer tips as I move forward in my explorations. The Whidden Bullet Pointing Die System would be more appropriate to an open tip jacketed bullet, might work at ~59 or 60 grains and below, but not with the 62 Grain I seek.:cry:



Mustang

[Reload3006]

airsoft bbs are not a very good choice for ballistic tips. You can do it but you need to heat the bbs so they are pliable. Ski binding plugs are a much better alternative. my avitar is proof.

[MUSTANG]

Reload 3006:

Thanks for the comment.


Best price I found for Ski Plugs was $0.029 (plus shipping) per plug mixed color or $0.045 per plug for choice of color here:
http://www.slidewright.com/plastic-binding-hole-plugs-pk_svpbhp.html


Air Soft was appealing because I could get 10,000 for $9.80 ($0.00098 each) and shipping was free. Cost was almost free per bullet for trying to make a polymer tipped bullet.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000KQ3E70/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i01


Question:

1. It would seem that if you heat the BB's to soften them, then will not the .071 ejection pin penetrate all the way through as it ejects? Guess this may not be a problem since retaining the Airsoft BB in the bullet is accomplished by compressing the lower 50% to 60% portion of the ball inside of the brass shoulder of the Ogive.

2. Have you (or others) actually tried the Airsoft BB's with heating? If so what temp's and what process of heating before insertion and swaging into the bullet Ogive?

Mustang

[Reload3006]

I have heated them and it works. But it takes a little longer. best method I have found is heat them till they are pliable then put them in your jacket and point form leave the handle down and allow the bb to cool a little before you eject. your still going to have a flat pig nose but it looks and works ok. I have the lead tipping die but have not tried it on the B.T. personally I have become very happy with a small open tip bullet. The ski binding plugs are a little more expensive and a lot easier to use. But there again I am not entirely sure you gain any benefit from them at all other than they look neat. However there are several ground hogs that they have not agreed with at all they have been very effective ground hog stoppers. but I think that open tips are a lot more explosive.