Copper solids vs Jwords vs Boolits

[pmer]

My wife had a 25 year class reunion last night and one of her class mates is a hydrologist that works for the DNR. He is just starting to reload and has a farm that they hunt on. We got to talking about a deer hunting program that lets hunters bring deer to donate at food shelves. The deer have to go designated meat processors.

One or two years into the program issues or concerns about lead in the animals came up. So anyways he was involved in some testing of jacketed bullets used on deer with the question of what happens to bullets as they shed weight - where does the lead go? Through x-rays they could see traces of lead near and around entrance and exit wounds and in the gut piles too. It turned him into a copper solid bullet guy. Naturally I asked him if they tested lead handgun bullets and he said no but I got him to assume there would be less sign off lead from SWC and FN type lead projectiles fired at velocities we're shooting.

They found the most lead deposits in animals were from the lightly constructed high velocity big game bullets and the Hornaday SST was on top with most lead in the meat and gut pile and some muzzle loader bullets being pushed hard. The gut pile has significance because it is cleaned up by predators and birds. Birds being of higher importance. I don't know the extent of their testing I didn't think it was a lot based on how he was talking.

There is no talk of lead free big game ammo in our state but I suppose this how it starts. It makes me wonder about trends in bullet construction and if some designs may help lead to the down fall of lead being used for hunting. I wonder if there could be ways to use cast as "historically vital" or important to hunting if these lead free ammo ideas come up in legislatures.

I'm not going to stop using CBs for hunting because it just too fun and I don't think there is any real danger in getting lead from a properly hit animal.

[RU shooter]

Been working for a local deer processor for about the last 5 years and hes right on about the lead fragments in the impact area,Its easy to see when you start cutting into the meat. We try to cut out or remove what we can see of the jacket and lead fragments but you can get it all as can be told from the nightly clean out of the grinder.

[lhead71]

That is interesting, I never thought about the scavengers who could be affected. I wonder why the SST is at the top of the list, I know there are other much more frangible bullets out there.

[roverboy]

I may be wrong but, I wouldn't think that lead deposits would be high enought to effect people or animals eating the meat.

[runfiverun]

i don't think too many bullets are more frangible that the sst.
in fact i believe the interlock is more robust than the sst is.http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3411043/m/9501024081
caution the second picture is pretty errrr....,ummm,,,,,,,, graphic.
this is with a factory superformance 7 mag round.
now i have done similar damage in my x57 ackley at near 3-k fps with thier bonded version.
granted the velocity's are high and is most likely what's causing the damage.
but the interlock at 150 fps slower produces exit holes very similar to the partition used in the top picture.

[Bluehawk]

I am not a scientist ,(but both my sons are biologists so I'll have to check with them) BUT seems to me that in the last 40 years or so Bullet technology has come a long way . ALSO the
"TREND" has been in that time, to use higher velocity and more VIOLENT EXPANSION as the hype to kill better . There should be MORE lead deposits in the game than ever ( MY logic any way ) SO if that is the case and its affecting the scavengers , Why do we have WAY more coyotes and foxes and Bob cats than we ever did, in the last 40 years also ? Shouldn't the lead be killing them off and shouldn't it be affecting their ability to produce offspring ? ( or at least that is the logic I'm hearing about the LEAD affecting the animals ) Any way just my way of thinking that its mostly HYPE on the lead fear .

[jhalcott]

While I THINK much of the lead problem is hype and fuel for bunny huggers, I do NOT like to blow up the edible game I shoot! I WILL smash a flyif given the chance ,discombobulate a ground hog or prairee dog. If it's a valuable fur or edible target, it gets a different bullet. Usually cast and send out at about 2000-2200 fps.

[cdet69]

Was there even anything left to eat of that antelope?

[runfiverun]

the hams were about it and there was some bloodshot clear to them.
i shot a small buck with the bonded version at bout 3-k fps and hamburgered the off shoulder almost just like that.
i learned pretty quick from that,
I went back to the interlock and back to 2700- 2850 fps with that bullet.
i haven't had the inclination to soup up the rifle since.
if that were an elk the wound would be much different i'm sure it would have been shallow and messy and the chase would be on.

[selmerfan]

The easiest butchering deer I gut and process are the ones I shoot with my cast boolits. I also hunt deer with jacketed bullets out of a .260 Rem, .243 Win, .308 win, & .30-06. With proper hits they aren't bad, but the cast boolits from a .357 Max do such a nice job of punching a big hole and not damaging anything except the vital stuff. I love 'em!

[CLAYPOOL]

Illinois started the same way with lead shot..Killing the ducks and geese..but I couldn't find any sick ones in all the years we walked the shore lines for Cripps..the dog was stupid also..she couldn't either...

[9.3X62AL]

I am not a scientist ,(but both my sons are biologists so I'll have to check with them) BUT seems to me that in the last 40 years or so Bullet technology has come a long way . ALSO the
"TREND" has been in that time, to use higher velocity and more VIOLENT EXPANSION as the hype to kill better . There should be MORE lead deposits in the game than ever ( MY logic any way ) SO if that is the case and its affecting the scavengers , Why do we have WAY more coyotes and foxes and Bob cats than we ever did, in the last 40 years also ? Shouldn't the lead be killing them off and shouldn't it be affecting their ability to produce offspring ? ( or at least that is the logic I'm hearing about the LEAD affecting the animals ) Any way just my way of thinking that its mostly HYPE on the lead fear .

What you've written makes a lot of sense. It would appear that lead is selective in its lethality--an absolute poison to cuddly condors (YECH!) and big, sad-eyed deer.......but not to coyotes or bobcats. A dread death-warrant to waterfowl.......but not so much to quail or pheasants. Whatta crock.

I use the Barnes TSX and TTSX in the CCCZ where I deer-hunt (CA Condor Cuddling Zone). I'll bet the tree-hugging hoplophobes are beside themselves knowing that all-copper bullets actually shoot well and expand well on game animals. Hoist by their own petard. Nice.

[reloader28]

We've been shooting SST's for years and never had a problem like that goat.
150gr 3006 at 3000fps and it works perfect every time. I know several other people with the same results. I do know it is a lighter jacketed bullet and I dont use it on elk.

The problem is the 280. My brother has one and that is a WICKED round. He uses SST's sometimes, but I dont know the load.
According to the ballistics books its not really much better than the 06, but in real life it is a SERIOUSLY powerful round.


That been said, since I've been casting for rifles I would MUCH rather hunt with my own boolits. But, condom bullets do have their place when you need the longer range.

[nekshot]

when I was a kid I worked for a butcher shop. I trimmed enough bad deer meat to last me a life time. Now all our rifles smaller than 30 cal use barnes triple shock bullets for hunting. I was sold on the first deer my son took, was a 200 lb huge deer for us at 245 yards, he had a 243 with a barnes 85 gr slowed down to 2800 fps. When I worked up this load I never thought he would shoot fruther than 100 yards. The bullet caught the shoulder blade, went thru the lungs and took off a rib on the way out. Half inch hole in and 1 inch hole out. Very little meat damage. Now after alot more deer the kids have taken we have not had a one failure to perform as expected. 30 and up get boolits.

[Brasso]

This is just another program by the anti-hunting crowd to get lead outlawed. People who have eaten wild game most of their lives were tested for lead content in their blood. Most of the time they came up with lower counts than non game eaters. "Follow the money".

Sam

[popper]

Birds don't have teeth so the lead shot can be used as grinder and retained in the body. As for waterfowl, I think they want a clean kill (or miss). Still doesn't make much sense. Given the lifespan of most critters, bird-of-prey diet is what usually doesn't get shot, grain poisoning to eliminate trash birds etc. Our CBs and shot is statistically a non-event.

[pmer]

I never tried those SST stlye bullets either. I tried a 225 Barnes X on White Tale in a 338-06. With lung shots in the snow there was alot of red spray on the white snow from both sides. But they never ran far anyway.

I wonder if hunters brought in for donation deer that were more shot up, saving the nicer hit ones for themselves?

A few years ago I enjoyed watching a Eagle and some crows working on a gut I had left on the field. It was nice to watch. But this year again I'm going to enjoy carrying 94's and 92's with cast! And maybe one of those hand held spinning type gizmos that shoot SWCs 8-)

[JesterGrin_1]

I have used the Hornady 165Gr SST in my 30-06. And have taken two Deer and one Javelina with that load but none were close. The two Deer were between 130-150 yards of which were Heart/Lung Shots of which both were DRT without big exit wounds maybe up to about Silver Dollar sized. And they did there job well. But again due to Shot Placement there was no meat damage except a couple of missing ribs and the Lungs and part of the Heart turned to jello. The Javelina was a boo boo lol. It was not good light and I felt it was a Hog but it was right at 330 yards. But it was also Dead right there with no large exit wound. Due to it being a Javelina it was just taken to the Buzzard Corner lol. Which as a side note that I was darn happy with the Shot till I found out what it was lol.

I have talked to a Gentleman that goes by 358Win here on the forum I believe that has had great luck with the Hornady 200Gr SST in his 358 Winchester on Deer so I may load some of those in my 358 Winchester for the longer shots that might be needed of which they offer a better BC than the standard Hornady 200Gr SP.

The Hornady 200GR SST was intended for the 35 Remington in Lever Action Rifles. So due to the construction of the bullet and the speeds of which the .358 Winchester can achieve I would not use that bullet for close shots say 25 yards or less if loaded to top velocities in the .358 Winchester for those that are lucky enough to live in an area where short range shots are the norm. I however am not that lucky lol. :)

[41mag]

pmer,

That is an interesting read, and I don't find myself a bit surprised about the results either.

I have shot plenty of different bullets through the years and found both good and bad results can come from them all. Even with good shot placement, throw in top end velocities and even with a Barnes you can get some unexpected results.

When I fist got on the Barnes kick years ago they only had the X, and I loaded it in several calibers. One was the 25-06 with the 100gr and the other was a .243 with the 90gr. With both I had great and dismal performance at long and short range shots. One poor doe I hit in the neck with the 25-06 was bloodshot back to the mid ribs. With the MV pushing 3400fps it was simply more than what was needed IMO. Similarly with the .243 and a top end load, the little 90gr would do things that made some BT's look mild on a close up shot.

I have also used the BT's and SST's with both great and dismal results on both deer and hogs. What I have found however is when using them if I kept my MV within 2800 or less they usually seemed to work like any other bullets. That said most factory loads nowadays are pushing the envelope on what they can do and velocity seems to sell. Throw in the fact that the SST is usually loaded in factory rounds that are a little cheaper than the Noslers and you get more folks going to them.

As for my own uses, I have loads which were developed for extreme situations like reaching out 4-500yds and I use the BT's and SST's almost exclusively. I do however try and use a heavier for caliber bullet in these loads so that I am gaining the added BC and SD while I am at it. These loads were not worked up with deer in mind however but for dropping feral hogs in their tracks, so the added damage isn't as much of a major concern as expending the energy on them is. When we set up for them we usually do a drive of sorts, where several of us will walk the thick stuff and a couple will set up with the LR rigs. When they blow the cover, the ones walking it can't even begin to see them making a break across the wide open pastures, so the couple with the LR rigs go to work on them. When they are hit we want them down right there not trailing along to have to be followed up on. With these particular type loads we are usually not disappointed. As for the added trimming, it to us is all part of it, and there is usually plenty of meat to go around when we do this type of hunt.

Now if I am set up to hunt deer with a rifle, I am using a Partition or CL or the older Nosler Solid Base type bullets. I know my range limitations and the accuracy of the loads is usually 1" or so at 200yds allowing me to precisely place my shot where I want to put it. If I cannot get the shot I want I simply don't shoot. It's simply not that important to me, to put a deer in the freezer.

There are a couple of cases where the other type bullets are used, but as mentioned the velocities are well below 2800fps. One example is my daughters 6.5x55. After a two year load development we FINALLY got the thing to shoot a handload. Believe me when I say we tried a hundred different combinations before finding on a whim, that the 140gr A-Max would shoot very well. The kicker is our top end velocity is only 2550fps. I tried the load on hogs for a full year before ever allowing her to hunt a deer with them. At ranges from 10yds or less to out past 350yds it dropped them like the Hammer of Thor. I never saw the total destruction of meat, nor did I see bullets that ever failed to expand. Yes I had to do some trimming on the very closest shots, but out past 50yds you could not tell the difference in the A-Max over any other bullet on the market. The several nice bucks she used them on fell to one shot on the spot, and never knew what hit them. The ranges were all less than 100yds which is what we strive for to begin with.

Take that example and turn to the 7mm Rem Mag or the STW with the 162gr A-Max and it is a completely different story all together. With either of these I have not found a load, that either near or far, will work like the above mentioned load does. They are like firing shoulder launched grenades even with the lower velocity loads.

As for critters taken with cast, I am just beginning to use them in earnest. I have dropped a couple of hogs, and finished up one deer with them and the results have all been the same. Just larger than caliber hole going in and MAAAYBEEE slightly larger exiting. I will hopefully have plenty more experience with them after this fall and into the beginning of next year as we go to work on the hogs again in earnest. Not that we don't work on them all year, but when it's cooler we concentrate on them REALLY HARD.

[MBTcustom]

It doesn't have to be that way. I shoot my deer with my special 250 grain boomerang boolit (358318) and it does the job. Clean, quick, humane kills.
Last year was perfect: 100 lb. buck at 70 yards through the trees. I took a knee and put it behind his shoulder. I saw hair and red mist fly out the back of him. He came out of the trees hobbling, and stumbled strait towards me. He died 15 yards from the toes of my boots. I just kind of looked at the rifle and looked at the deer. Pretty impressive.
Here is the extent of the damage:
Entrance:
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/Photo12281235.jpg
Exit:
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/Photo12281234.jpg
Perfection.
It just don't get much more perfect than that!


.

[UBER7MM]

Excellent hunting, Goodsteel!