Stevens Favorite and the .32 S&W

[Reg]

For years now I have heard of the possibility of converting a Stevens Favorite from the .32 rimfire to .32 S&W. Frank deHaas even mentioned it in some of his writings but admitted he had never done it. The reasoning behind the idea is seemingly sound. Both are about the same size and Dominion and a few others made smokeless loads in the rimfire so why not ? Wanting to try this idea a number of years ago I picked up a rough but very usable 1915 action and Numrich at the time was selling the Marlin LeverMatic barrels in 30 carbine, I picked up 2.

As time went on, the action was looked over and deemed to be in very good condition and a barrel was tightly fitted. I made my own chamber reamer and from the casting, it looked tight and proper. The rimfire breech block was converted to center fire. The rifle was restocked , blued and sights fitted. Casings were found and dies and a couple of molds procured. A lot of time was spent looking over loads and load combinations. I knew we were dealing with a very low pressure action and all loads had to be kept as low as possible. Accuracy at 25 to 50 yards was all that was expected and with the potential power of perhaps taking small game at close range. No more was expected of it than a run of the mill .22 rimfire.

The first loadings were with The Lyman 3118 ( to hopefully match the twist of the LeverMatic barrel in the .30 Carbine ) and 1 grain of Bullseye. Two things were evident. One, the load was too light, a couple of bullets not exiting the barrel. Later this was determined to be because of the bullet dia., .310, too tight and requiring too much pressure to "push" through the bore. The Marlin barrel was .3080. This also raised chamber pressures. This in turn led to bending the link pins, so new pins were fitted made from 3/16" hardened dowel pins. The education had started !

The next try was with Lyman 313249 and again, the 1 gn. of Bullseye. Thinking perhaps the lighter bullet would put less stress on action parts. Wrong again. This time the link stretched and a new one was made from Starret stock @ Rc 40. Also this load was put on the chronograph and velocities ran from 488 to 792. Load was from Sharps book. After the new link was made and installed again this bullet was tried but this time with 1 gn. of Herco and 1 gn. Unique. The Herco wouldn't get the bullet out of the barrel reliably and accuracy was 3" @ 30 yards. Remaining shells loaded with these loads were shot up in a Ruger SS to recover brass. They were fired from the hip at the 100 yard target frame quickly just to recover the brass , the day was cloudy and dull and the bullets were actually seen in flight. Trajectory was about like a thrown cast iron skillet.

Moving along we then tried the Lyman 311252 and the Lee 90300 with 1.7 gn. Bullseye. Accuracy improved a bit but this time the factory breech block pivot screw started bending. It should be noted that at no time did we see excessive headspace or anything that would really send up danger signs, the action just got loose and the finger lever would droop. When the lever got that loose, we stopped and shot it no more for that day.

A new breech block pivot screw was made from Stress proof. A very good steel that seldom requires heat treatment for such things as screws and firing pins.
Going to 1.2 gn. Bullseye and the Lyman 3118 and the Lyman 311359 back we went again. Accuracy improved down to 1 1/4" groups @ 30 yds but once again the action loosened up due to the un heat treated Stress proof breech block pivot screw.

By now I was wondering if this all was such a smart thing to do. A lot of work and no real results . Number one son asked the question should one even spend time operating at the absolute end of capability of any action and I was starting to agree and started thinking about finding a .22 rimfire breech block and a new barrel and bring it back to something that was a little more do-able. There wasn't too many more parts in the action that could be improved other than the frame itself. Time for thought. The lighter bullets just didn't seem to stabilize with the twist that was in the barrel but the heaver bullets seemed to put a lot of pressure on things. Looking through a older Lyman Cast Bullet handbook I noticed the Lyman 311445. A semi-wadcutter design. I stooped to finding one on fleabay. It turned out to cast a good bullet @ 97 gn. in wheel weights and had about the same bearing surface as the 3118. 45-45-10 was used as a lube.
A new breech block pivot screw was made from drill rod and heat treated to Rc.42 and the 311445, sized @ .308 was matched up with 1.2 gn. Unique. Also a scope was mounted after making a barrel only scope mount and using some old Tildon rings I had laying around.

And now ---------- Have been shooting it for a while now and so far every thing is holding together and groups at 30 yards are running about 3/4". Is it going to last? I think so. Will try it on bunnies later this fall. Is it a smart thing to do? Good question. You had better be capable of doing everything yourself or this conversion could wind up costing you the farm. There also must remain the thought that you are operating at the upper end of the capability of the action with little room for error. Will this rifle be made into a .22 rimfire again some day ? Quit possibly. Would I recommend it to anyone. NO. I think Frank would have agreed with me.

:drinks:

[uscra112]

Lotta work to accomplish that! Many times people have asked whether it was feasible. I guess now we know. You've done the community a great service, Reg.


Phil

[John Taylor]

Doing the numbers, the 32 S&W factory load has about 500 pounds more bolt thrust than modern 22LR. The Favorite was not designed for modern ammo but seems to hold up fine with the modern 22 LR which develops about 953 pounds of breach thrust.

[Reg]

How does one go about determining bolt thrust ?
Thanks

[MBTcustom]

How does one go about determining bolt thrust ?
Thanks

I would like to know this also? I have only ever seen PSI and C.U.P. pressure. Bolt thrust is a new term for me, but if a table exists with that information, I would love to see it!

Heck of a write-up there Reg, I never would have gone there, but it was awesome to read what you found and how you did it. Very interesting reading.
Just be careful OK? Sounds like you are one 1/4" pin away from disaster.

I guess you could think of it like if you climbed onto a platform, along with about 800 pounds of lead, suspended by a link that was pinned in place with that 1/4" bolt pin. How many trips across the grand canyon would you take depending on that one pin to keep you from plummeting into the yawning abyss below?:lol:
Sounds like you already made the trip half a dozen times with no problems except that the pin almost sheared in two twice.
You are a braver man than I.
I'm not poking fun at you at all, just be careful and don't get hurt.
Sounds like a really sweet little rabbit buster!

[shotman]

there was a metal ribon I dont know what company sold it . was a very thin metal in different colors . was used on thrust bearing to calulate the pressure. I remember it was in 1000lb desinations, and you had to guess at the in betweens

[john hayslip]

Just don't try to make a magnum out of it. The Stevens 44 is a larger, similar action to the Favorite. I have in my possession a 44 barrel converted to 357 magnum. Probably built that way as a blackpowder rifle to shoot blackpowder equivalent loads, loads which would make sense but it didn't handle the hot load. Someone actually shot a 357 in it and the breechblock let loose through the pin area. I didn't see the accident so don't know the outcome. The Favorite will last a long time if you don't push it but it was a blackpowder design and made with soft steel and I doubt anything was hardened.

[Reg]

One must remember that the only reason I did this was for two reasons.
One, Frank deHaas mentioned it ( but admitted never doing it )and I think I see his reasoning which is the second reason. The rifle was made in .32 rimfire and some .32 rimfire ammunition was made using smokeless powder, I.E. Dominion, some late Remington ( I have a couple boxs ) and if I am not mistaken, some of the later Navy Arms import stuff was smokeless as well.

Mr. deHaas also mentioned that the Stevens Marksman could be rebarreled to .38 Special but after looking at one with that slip in barrel extension, I think not. Even if you could come up with a tap and thread the interior of the barrel shroud, after looking at the overall lightness in construction, I can see where it would still not be a good idea.

I do not think I am the only one who has had this idea in mind of converting the 1915 to 32 S&W. Was at a gunshow in Brule Nebraska a couple of weekends ago and the subject came up. A fellow was actually looking for a Stevens 1915 to do this exact conversion. Told him of my travels in life doing exactly that and tried to encourage him to find a better action to spend his money on. This in fact is where I am going this winter. I have a small Martini action and will rebarrel it to .32 H&R Mag. Actually, the conversation with the guy at Brule and several others in past years prompted me to write the above.

My experiment with these smaller 32 calibers has been fun , in spite of the problems, and I wish to continue on with them but only in a more safe and sane manor. The 1915 I have has actually turned out to be a very nice looking rifle but I already have a new .22 r.f. barrel laying on the bench for fitting. I think it will make excellent grandson material.

John Taylor mentioned the figures involving bolt thrust. I understand the concept of bolt thrust but it has never been explained to me where the figures come from or how it is determined or how they are related to safety factory involving various actions. I want to learn this. I can see where it could be a valuable tool.
John, please step in.

john hayslip--- a 44 rebarreled to .357 !!!!! WOW Someone was really sleeping there !!! Hope no one got hurt.
Then again Stevens themselves made up a few of the 44's in the 1930's for the .22 Hornet and actually put them out on the market. My understanding is that they shot loose in short order. I saw one many years back and the fellows complaint was headspace, loose parts, etc. Wanted me to tighten it up. When I told him that no was the answer because the action wasn't strong enough for the Hornet in the first place it really ticked him off. Said he would take the rifle to someone who knew what they were doing. Hope he found him !!

[MBTcustom]

ohn Taylor mentioned the figures involving bolt thrust. I understand the concept of bolt thrust but it has never been explained to me where the figures come from or how it is determined or how they are related to safety factory involving various actions. I want to learn this. I can see where it could be a valuable tool.
John, please step in.
Thats my thoughts exactly.
By the way Reg, I wasn't trying to poopoo your build. Absolutely not. Its the type of thing I might have tried myself. Kudos to you for getting it to work!
Have you thought of loading it with black powder? I would think that would be just the ticket for this rifle, and might give you a touch more safety margin.
Or are you just going to put it up now?

[Nobade]

Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't bolt thrust (or breech thrust in this case) be calculated just like the force produced by hydraulic equipment? The area of the inside of the base of the cartridge case multiplied by the peak chamber pressure? Of course this neglects any friction between the case and the chamber walls, but it works well to give you an idea of what is going on.

[Reg]

Nobade, I think you are on to something but I just wish someone who is in the know would step in here and give us a lesson. Knowledge not shared is a shame.

Goodsteel, No, I do not want to put it up by any means. If I could just figure out how to post pictures here ( says my files are too big and darned if I can figure out or learn how to shrink them , I am not very computer literate) I would like to post quite a few. Came up with a very different but very positive way to convert the rimfire firing pin to center fire and there are a lot of other innovations but they are going to have to be shown .
No offense taken. This business of doing the exotic is something I have always wanted to do and have collected a want to list over the years that I know I will never finish. Each finished project opens the door to many others.
Your thoughts of using black powder are valid or perhaps even Pyrodex but I would like ( there again ) someone who knows the figures to step in and put in their two cents worth.
If the smokeless version of the .32 &W is 500 lbs more in this bolt thrust then what would a black powder loading equal. I cannot find the proper loading in the .32 S&W for black, anyone have a idea ?

:-?

[I'll Make Mine]

From what I understand (reading only) bolt thrust is actually measured, like chamber pressure is measured, using an instrumented test barrel. The calculation of peak chamber pressure multiplied by inside head area would be an upper limit assuming an ideally lubricated chamber (i.e. no friction between case and chamber walls); real thrust will always be significantly less than this.

The proper loading for .32 S&W (or any other straight wall case) with black powder is a case full. ;-) By weight in .32 S&W, that's probably between 15 and 17 grains, but you'd start by dropping enough powder that the boolit compresses it at least a tiny bit (to ensure no air space -- if chamber ringing is real, an old, soft-steel rifle is where I'd expect to see it), then dump and weight the resulting charge. To reduce the load, drop less powder and make up the column height with corn meal, Cream of Wheat, compacting shot buffer, or similar granular filler, again so that the load is very slightly compressed.

[Reg]

I'll Make Mine,
Would this also apply to Pyrodex? Have some of it on hand and could quickly try this .
Thanks
Reg

[john hayslip]

I'd imagine you could find the black powder loading by filling the case to the base of the bullet. Since the 32 rimfire cases I've seen are fairly long I can't imagine why a 32 S&W (ie short case) isn't a really good idea and should work fine. There are few pistols out there in 32 S&W anymore and a lot of them were not of too high a quality so I'd think about any load given in one of the big reloading manuals should be safe because the makers of the book would recognize the danger in hot loads in the weaker guns. Given that the bolt thrust is related to the area the base of the bullet you can get a multiplier by dividing the square of the radius of the 32 by the square of the radius of the 22 case. This is going to be a number larger than one.

[I'll Make Mine]

Pyrodex is canonically loaded by equal volume to a weighed charge of black powder -- so in a cartridge, you'd use either Pyrodex C or Pyrodex RS and fill by volume the same as I described for black powder.

Don't forget to clean your rifle after shooting, and again a few days later, after using Pyrodex -- I've heard plenty of horror stories about the stuff rusting a bore that had been cleaned and oiled immediately after shooting...

[Reg]

Excellent , will try this out and let all know the results. Have RX on hand.
Already use RX in a Stevens 101 in .44 shot. I alter 444 Marlin cases. Have used it on doves with great success. I wear full camo, don't move at all and sit under trees at dusk. Let them get within about 15 yards and it works about as good as a 20 ga. Just have to let them get close is all.
Again , I do thank you.
Reg

[Nobade]

Standard 32 S&W load is 8 gr. FFFg.

[Reg]

Nobade, load duely noted, thank you. Think I have some XXX around here, will try it next.
Did wind up using the .30 Lee dipper with Pyrodex RX. Load came to aprox. .200 of top of shell.
Seating Lyman 313445 @ .250 depth which gives .050 compression.
Still wonder what the bolt thrust will work out to. Am I really gaining anything going to black or Pyrodex?

:drinks:

[John Taylor]

Figuring bolt thrust, area times pressure. Always treat the cartridge as a piston, measuring the OD just in front of the rim. Don't rely on the brass to "grip" the chamber wall as some do, there have been case separations that will make this of no effect.
I like the little Favorite but it is not a good gun to hot rod. Have seen one in 32-20 which scares me, someone is going to get hurt. Same goes for the #4 Remington. While the old BP load on a 32 S&W will work fine the smokeless loads can put to much strain on the little actions. Fast burning pistol powders develop their pressure very quick and the slower burning powders need pressure to burn correctly. The old 32 long rimfire used 9 grains of black powder so a S&W with 8 or less will not hurt the action.

[Reg]

Just a quick up date.
Has taken forever to get back out and try the pyrodex loads but they seem to be the answer, at least for now.
The Lee .30 dipper actually dumps less than the 8 grains as suggested by John Taylor, looks to be in the neighborhood of 5.5 gn. or so. This is with about .050 of powder compression. At this point I see no reason to up the loads as they seem to be doing what we want.
Getting nickle sized 5 shot groups @ 25 yards and just one ragged hole about the size of a quarter for ten or more shot groups. This is with the Lyman 313445 and 45-45-10 and a small rifle primer. This is well within the desired accuracy for what we plan on doing with the little rifle. No signs of pressure in any way. Does put out a small amount of white smoke which hurts nothing and there is the hassle of cleaning the cases and the rifle after firing.
Have a few other angles I want to play with on this one but it will have to wait until later this winter but for now it looks like it is safe and very usable and it does answer the question of converting a Favorite to .32 S&W. It can be done but does have it limitations and it would appear that any smokeless powder is out.

:drinks:

[Nobade]

Have a few other angles I want to play with on this one but it will have to wait until later this winter but for now it looks like it is safe and very usable and it does answer the question of converting a Favorite to .32 S&W. It can be done but does have it limitations and it would appear that any smokeless powder is out.

:drinks:

Good to hear you got it working well. Your results are just what I experienced with my Remington #4 converted to centerfire. It worked great with black powder, but one day I thought to try it with some loads of 2.0gr. Trailboss. Mistake! It only took two shots to get the barrel loose in the frame. Previously it locked up nice and tight, now it's sloppy. It still shoots OK, but I need to tighten it up one of these days. Stick to black powder and it'll live a happy life. Not to mention the BP loads are more powerful than the smokeless loads, even though the pressure is lower.

[Reg]

Nobade, what caliber was your #4 in ?
Really, there is nothing wrong with using black or in my case, Pyrodex in some of these earlier cartridge rifles. I myself have done it for years as have many others. It would be nice to have the convenience that smokeless offers such as not staining up the cases that require cleaning or having to clean the rifle itself after every session but considering the safety factors, it's worth it. I guess I wanted to " have my cake and eat it too ".
What surprised me was was finally getting accuracy and I think I can even improve on that.
What I wanted to wind up with was a "bunny gun" kind of along the lines that Ed Harris is playing with on another site and I think we are there. Was hoping for a inch at 25 yards and it seems to be doing even better than that. The last few 5 shot groups were easily running from .375 to .50 c/c . Will set up the chronograph in a few days and actually see what the vel. is. Did notice how well the 313445 cuts a perfect hole in the paper. We should have another really good hard freeze soon so will take it out and see what we can find for the pot.
Also have a couple more ideas in mind that might get a bit more of a safety factor involved so will post them when I have time to work them out.

:drinks:
This has been a good project !!

[Reg]

excess650,
Yes, the 44 is a much better platform to work with but even it has it's limitations and the use of smokeless powder, there again, seems to head the list.
Have played with the 44 for many years now in the original calibers and a couple that have been converted.
Harvey Donaldson stated that about all the original calibers could be used with up to 5 grains Unique and I have used this load from the 22-15-60 up to the 32-40 and as long as it was not exceeded, it seemed to work in a safe and sane manor but-------
in all cases from large to small I got much better accuracy and seemingly safer performance.
when using Pyrodex or ff black .
These early actions were mostly made from a simple grade of cast iron and you sure do not want to push them. When pushed they tend to shatter rather than stretch.

[uscra112]

No model 44 was ever made with a cast iron frame.

[Reg]

A low grade of cast steel perhaps but the workability and strength is no more than cast iron. Take one apart, look inside, it's a casting, not a forging. Try to bend the lower tang. Without almost excessive heat it will crack or at times, even break. These are not strong actions by todays standards and should not be considered as such.

[Nobade]

Nobade, what caliber was your #4 in ?


32 H&R mag. I chambered it for that because I had the reamer already. If I did it again I would use a 32 S&W or 32 Long. The H&R is just a little long to easily load and unload.

If the rifle had anything resembling a bore in it I would have gotten a heeled mould and shot it with the original chamber and 32 Colt brass. But it was rusted away so bad it had to be relined.

It works great now, just have to firmly pull the block open to get the case past it.

[uscra112]

Yeah, the Stevens 44 actions aren't terribly strong. Metallurgy then wasn't what it is now, and 100 years of age haven't helped. IIRC, the CF 44s had a different hammer with projection that extended under the block when the hammer was forward.

Mine ended up 38Spl as I had someone rebore/re-rifle for less than it would have cost for a liner to make it a .22 or .32. 32 H&R Mag or 32-20 might have been better choices with their smaller head diameters, but the larger than .360" liners would have removed a bit more integrity from the barrel shank.

That hammer looked like this:

[uscra112]

The weakness of the 44 was/is that the breechblock wants to rotate downward when the thrust is applied, which stresses the link pins something awful. The hammer above was meant to take the strain off the pins. It has to be fitted closely, like a rolling-block hammer, because that's what it is. I wish I had one. But my .32-20 WCF doesn't seem to mind that lug not being there.

[justashooter]

so, i guess that little belgian folding trigger mini bulldog i rechambered from 320 revolver to 32 S&W should be fun to shoot, eh?

[KCSO]

I did a Stevens 44 to 32 S and W one time but never thought about a Favorite. I would like one for black powder, would make a dandy small game gun. You went to some good work making that one.

[Reg]

KSCO, it does make a neat little package but am firmly convinced ( more than ever now ) it's a black powder only proposition, at least in the Favorite action. I think the 44 would be more than strong enough at least for the regular .32 S&W and the Long version as well. Not too sure about the .32 Mag. It might be a bit much. Would like to show how it turned out but cannot get the picture reduced in size enough to send it through.

Nobade, wanted to also play with the .32 Mag in a rifle, from what I hear, they work well. I have a small martini action and another one of these Marlin barrels and might try to put them together later this winter. For whatever reason, I also had to hold the action tightly open in order to get things low enough to load it. Decided to put a light "scallop" on the top, front edge of the breech block. That now allows proper clearance and really is not noticed.

uscra112, Yes. That hammer lockup form is much better . Have an origional 44-46 in 32-40 set up from the factory like that and another that was converted into a .22 LR as someone's match rifle with a 52 Winchester barrel also with that lockup. That particular rifle hurts every time I look at it. In it's day it had to have been a screamer. It has the improved lockup , so it must have been in 32-40 but the receiver, breechblock, etc, is completely covered with the highest form of factory engraving. Now, it's a great shooter but what it must have been !!!!!

Have been shooting the Favorite with the Pyrodex loads for a week now with no problems whatever other than staining a few nice brass cases. Accuracy has been excellent but have noticed some fouling. Am not sure but think I might have to change the lube from the 45-45-10 to a softer lube, better suited for use in black loads. Will cast more the first of next week and try another batch with a softer lube.
Have noticed a lot of tracks out at the Bugs Bunny Motel but am still waiting for another good hard freeze before trying the Favorite out as a meat gun.
If anyone has any extra .32 S&W casings laying around and wants to get rid of same, give me a PM. Looks like this one is going to get shot a lot.

:drinks:

[32ideal]

I converted a H&A 932 to 32 S&W in the 70's, made a new Breech block out of 1020 steel and used Kasenit to case harden it (very simple block) the original bore was very good in the rifle, but was over size at .316", found a Cramer 3 cavity 32 caliber 72gr SWC pistol mould that cast bullets right at .3155" cast from WW's, the rifle was accurate enough for Squirrels out to 75ft and just a blast to shoot. Used 1gr or a tenth more of 231 with bullet seated to factory length. Never had a problem with pressure, think it was because of the light weight bullet. Never thought to try a case full of 3f.
32ideal

[John Taylor]

These two block came out of a 44 that had been a 25-20SS rechambered to 25-35. Someone tried to weld one back together. I made a new block from heat treated 4140 and lined the barrel back to 25-20. I hope no one was hurt when the block broke. I don't know what type of metal was used in the Stevens but when welding the frame the only rod that seems to work is the old cast iron with red flux. A tig torch will make the metal around the weld as hard as glass and it can't be made soft again. Don't ask me how I know.
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l132/johnptaylor/44Stevensbreachblock.jpg

[Reg]

Wow, a 44 in 25-35. If that one will not send chills up your back, nothing will.
Interesting that one broke at the vertical line of the standing face and the other let go at the pivot screw hole. Sometimes pressure plays strange games.
What Rc did you hold on the 4140 and did you stress relieve ?
Made a couple of replacements ( center fire breech blocks ) in 1055 a few years ago and just left them soft. My reasoning being that the basic steel that the factory seemed to use was very low in carbon and the "skin" of case hardening seems to be about .005 deep and perhaps even less so there was nothing to be gained from the process itself and the extra carbon in the replacement blocks would make up the difference. So far and hundreds of rounds later ( 25-20 SS ) there seems to be no stretching or yield. Workability was actually quite good. One thing I did try to hit on was that small radius of breech block support that is on the 44. Most factory breech blocks don't seem to come close to fitting but I tried to actually get a almost "touching fit" to the radius. It shows up as a minor scuffing to the blued finish on the back radius on the breech block.
The few I have made up and put out to use seem to be standing up very well and some have had quite a few rounds put through them. Proper cartridge selection seems to be the key and careful loading practices. Keep the pressures within reason and as I am learning on this Favorite, how the pressure is applied. I.E. black vrs. smokeless.
That business of the rear radius support for the breech block is one of the angles I will play next on the Favorite action. Mine seems to clear by a couple of thou and that might be enough to allow some springing to be going on. Number one son gave me a piece of S-7 to make a new block from and that might be gross over kill but just the same a tighter fit might be more in order. Not to allow the use of smokeless ( learned from that one ) but to allow a broader safety margin.
Please keep your comments coming. For me, this is a learning process.

[Reg]

These two block came out of a 44 that had been a 25-20SS rechambered to 25-35. Someone tried to weld one back together. I made a new block from heat treated 4140 and lined the barrel back to 25-20. I hope no one was hurt when the block broke. I don't know what type of metal was used in the Stevens but when welding the frame the only rod that seems to work is the old cast iron with red flux. A tig torch will make the metal around the weld as hard as glass and it can't be made soft again. Don't ask me how I know.
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l132/johnptaylor/44Stevensbreachblock.jpg


You speak of using a TIG to repair areas on the frame and how they turn out being glass hard. You are right on. Been there, done that.
I have caught no small amount of flack saying those frames were made from cast iron and if not cast iron then some very low quality type of cast metal ( Iron ? )
Anyone who has done any welding at all will know you cannot weld cast with TIG using any normal filler rod without the base metal turning hard as the hubs of ---- ya. Am not smart enough to tell you exactly what is going on but I do know from bitter experience it sure can get un work able hard.
Stuff doesn't even like to grind after that. Even if you could get any filling work done have always wondered how it would turn out with CC or any other coloring process.
A lot of people are playing with these older actions, 44's, Ballards, etc and seem to want to put higher pressure cartridges on them than what they were ever designed for. The Ballard that let go at Quigley and a couple of others should be enough of a warning sign for all to show caution. This has been my only real reason for posting my adventures with this Favorite. Not every idea is a good idea and even then if one wants to carry it through then caution should be shown. Accept these older actions for what they were for at their time.
If you want to play with a hot rod, get a High Wall.

[John Taylor]

The 4140 I used for making the block was factory heat treated to 28-32C. I did not worry about stress as I was just machining, not bending or button rifling.. I fit the block so it was touching the frame and had a little pressure when the barrel was in. I don't like the idea of putting the whole load on the screws.
The new block with one of the old blocks.
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l132/johnptaylor/44StevensbreachblockNew.jpg

[uscra112]

That's a nice block, John. You left more meat around the pivot hole than the factory blocks I have, have had, or have seen.

I've more than once read that fitting the block so it bears on the shoulders in the frame when locked-up was a recommended practice. I actually did one years ago by welding some material onto the back of the block and then grinding it to fit, (in a kluge of a jig on a drill press, no less). Takes the rearward vector of the thrust off the pivot hole. Makes it lock up vaguely like unto a Ballard, sorta-kinda, almost.

[Reg]

Just thought I would try to show the little rifle that has driven me to the point of having to drink more homemade wine !!!!
The wood came from Ray Reichter when he was operating out of Fort Garland. It wasn't considered to be big enough for a regular stock but with some careful fudging I managed to get both the butt stock and the forarm from the same piece.
Blueing is all rust blue. Still need to decide what will be the checkering pattern but am using it too much now to take it down and start scratching.
Action is still holding up very well, accuracy is still excellent but am getting a bit of fouling showing up. Think it is the lube and will go to a softer lube better suited for for the Pyrodex powder.
Normally the rabbits are ankle deep out at the Bugs Bunny Motel but since the last freeze have yet to get a shot at nary one. Fate must have intervened.

:bigsmyl2:

[Ecramer]

I bet it would perform well on Hogdon 777, too, with somewhat less smoke and fouling. Dandy rifle you've built there.

[MBTcustom]

That is a sweet little number you got there!

[alrighty]

Reg , thanks for posting the picture.Sweet looking rifle indeed.
I am needing some help to try and get my rifle working.I have a Stevens model 44 in the .38 rf.I am wanting to go with a 38 long colt and black powder as this seems to be the easiest conversion.I have a 1877 Colt Lightening so I already have some brass stashed.First though I need to find an extractor ,does anyone make parts for these old rifles?If I could just find a detailed print it would be of great help.I am a machinist but in no shape or form could I be considered a gunsmith.Thanks again and sorry for the hijack.Thanks to all for the great information in this thread.

[uscra112]

If you've got a milling machine, modifying the existing extractor should be a doddle. Making the fixture will take much longer than doing the job. If it needs to be longer, just weld a bead on the tip and then file it down. Failing that, you can rough mill a new one to math the one you've got, (except for the tip), out of flat oil-hardening steel stock, and file it to the final shape. Drill and ream the pivot hole first. I've done a couple with nothing but a hacksaw, a drill press, and files. The extractor doesn't have to be hard, by the way, unless you need it to last for thousands and thousands of rounds.

[Reg]

alrighty,
Glad you like the pic. Took forever to figure out how to reduce it so it could be posted but think I have a good program and it should not be as much trouble.
Your conversion in the 44 sounds interesting. Do your math first to make sure everything will add up. Staying with black or pyrodex might allow you to use the full potential of the round. There are some smokeless loads for the 44 out there but they are all very light. I commonly shoot one in 32-40 but hold it to 5 grains of Unique. With black it can be boosted up there.

By checking figures I wouldn't be surprised if you could not almost use that extractor as is or with very and I do mean very little modification. If even needed, at the most it might take a tiny bit of build up on the very end then carefully file it into final shape. Use a gas torch and mild steel rod then pull the flame back slowly so as not to quick harden the weld or make it brittle at the weld junction. You can pick up a tube of Prussian Blue at any auto parts store and it's careful use will show you where the final fitting is needed. Have seen where some of these 44 extractors are soft and some seem to be lightly case hardened. You could start off with it being soft and if it starts showing any wear you could always give it a quick coat of Caseinite.
I have seen where there are those who sell some replacement parts for the 44's but cannot recall exactly who at the moment but a quick internet search should show them up. I think they sell mostly screws but I think there was at least one who sold extractors.
Do keep in mind there are two extractors for the 44. A center hung or 6 o'clock extractor ( the early one ) and a 7 o'clock extractor that is on the left side and comes in at a angle to the right ( as holding the rifle ).

Am thinking your real challenge is going to be in converting is in the conversion of the breech block from rim to center fire. Easiest, of course, is just find a center fire breech block and you should be in business. Headspace may or may not be correct but there again. Play with your figures. There may be some fudge factors there you can use.
Converting an existing R.F. breech block to center fire is very do-able especially if you have a good mill along the Bridgeport line with a quill in it. I prefer to use the Mann-Neidner method but it does require a bit more work. I would recommend staying away from the idea of filling the hole with a TIG then trying to redrill. Am still not 100 percent sure what those breechblocks were made of but I do know getting them hot with any welding method makes them to a point where diamonds look soft and there seems to be no pulling back on the hardness.
One tool I have made that really helps in locating the exact center of where that center fire firing pin is going to be on the breech block, is a dummy barrel section that fits properly in the threaded end of the receiver with a 1/4" clearance hole dead center in it. Screw it into the front of the receiver then use a 1/4" transfer punch to "prick" the exact center of the breech block. Blue the side of the breechblock, set on a small angle plate then use a height gage and by tapping things around you can lightly scribe a layout line to determine both ends of that firing pin hole then set it up , there again , on a angle plate with that layout line vertical, pick up center with a wiggler and you are good to go on how you want to approach modifying the firing pin.

Good project you have there, get going on it and let us know how you make out.

:drinks:

[alrighty]

Well , I guess I need to take two steps back now.I just dug out the Stevens and it seems my .38 r.f. is a 32 long r.f. I have no idea why I was thinking it was a 38 other than the possibility of me getting the Colt lightning shooting again and perhaps wishful thinking of a rifle/pistol combo.Now then back to the extractor , I do not have the original to modify.It was missing when I bought this rifle about 12 years ago at an farm auction.
I have taken some pics and hopefully I can get them posted.The bore is dark on mine but I have seen much worst.I was just thinking of a way to shoot this rifle but a complete new makeover is not out of the question.It seems like I have always had a problem about finding these old neglected single shots.In all honesty it was mostly because they would go cheap at a price that I could afford.:grin:
On a bright note I do have a old Bridgeport series 1 step pulley mill that again went at a price that I could afford.To be honest though I went to the auction with the intention of buying that mill.I knew it well as I worked for the company when they closed.It was old but it was very tight and the bearings were in great shape.Us machinist prefer the newer variable speed mills with the power feed so the old one never got used much.I also have a small clausing 10 inch lathe if needed.Nothing fancy but it works.I also have a Remington #4 that was supposed to be re chambered for 32-20.I have not done a chamber casting yet but a 32-20 does fit.I hope to shoot light B.P. loads in it as well.It is also missing the extractor , and looks rough but it locks up tight and the price was right.Stevens was not the only one to use different extractor's.This one is not the same as the one chambered in .22 sitting next to it.
Thanks for the replies and again thank everyone for the great information.
I would truly love to have something like you have there Reg , that looks like a very fun and classy shooter.

[alrighty]

I will also include some pics of the Remington as I have not found an extractor for it as well.I am thinking it is the rotary type.Again I don't have another to get an idea of what this one looks like.I like the Remington but the Stevens is my favorite "pun intended".
I can see that the Remington has been welded and drilled for the 32-20.The bore doesn't look to bad on this one but after I find or make an extractor I will have to do a chamber cast to make sure.I think it would be fine using black powder loads.

[Reg]

alrighty,
A couple thoughts. I kind of wondered about that 38 RF cal in a 44. Have collected a bunch of them through the years and have yet to run across one. Only rim fires I have seen are .22, .25 and .32. Everything I said still apply s. You might find a replacement extractor on line or I have a number of 44's that use the center hung or 6 o'clock extractor and I could easily make up a careful full scale tracing with a few dimensions and it shouldn't be any trick to make one up. Really, they are very simple. PM me if needed. From the picture it looks like there is a lot of wear or erosion where the extractor fits , it has lever "droopitus" and someone put a flute in the comb. It could be called restorable or it might also be a candidate for converting to a usable centerfire caliber. Have done several caliber conversions through the years and all have worked out very well as long as no one tried to hot rod it. Am currently playing with one that was a rough 32 RF. Changed quite a bit in the action, firing pin etc., and replaced the barrel with a .30 caliber barrel. Cartridge is a wildcat based on the 38 Spl. necked down to .30 caliber. It works perfectly in all respects but we do have to keep the loads and pressure's low. Number one son made a Chicopee action and barreled it up for this same caliber. His will take higher pressure's and the cartridge is a real preformer but then again , the Chicopee action is a much better design and will take the higher pressure's.

R.E., the Bridgeport mill. I have a Textron Variable speed head Bridgeport but honestly, I think I do prefer the old manual, step head mills. Don't know why but I just do.

The #4 Remington. Some one with more knowledge in Remingtons might want to step in here but I do not think you have a #4. Rather I think it's a #2. If so, it's a much more desirable design. There again, the extractors are so simple it shouldn't be hard to come up with either a replacement or with a bit of creative work, I bet you could come up with something very workable.
If it is a #2, then rebuilding it into a 25-20 WCF would be a great way to go but then again you better had check over the condition of the whole gun before proceeding.
#2's a quite rare and have good value even in rough condition. If the condition is such it still has collectable value then if you really must do some converting , it might be a smart idea to just sell it to someone who will restore or just keep it as is ( it will bring more than you think !!!) and pick up a small Martini action or action gun and go from there.

:drinks:

[Mk42gunner]

alrighty,

The Rolling Block is a No. 2, it is the only Remington RB that has a curve at the stock junction.

The extractor is the sliding type, retained by the small screw towards the top of the action. I don't have a camera right now or I would send you a picture of the extractor. IIRC Frank Dehass didn't recommend these actions for high pressure loads in .32-20.

I have one in .32 Rimfire that I shoot .32 Colt (both Short and Long) out of with a centerfire breechblock. It is a fun little gun.

Robert

[alrighty]

alrighty,
A couple thoughts. I kind of wondered about that 38 RF cal in a 44. Have collected a bunch of them through the years and have yet to run across one. Only rim fires I have seen are .22, .25 and .32. Everything I said still apply s. You might find a replacement extractor on line or I have a number of 44's that use the center hung or 6 o'clock extractor and I could easily make up a careful full scale tracing with a few dimensions and it shouldn't be any trick to make one up. Really, they are very simple. PM me if needed. From the picture it looks like there is a lot of wear or erosion where the extractor fits , it has lever "droopitus" and someone put a flute in the comb. It could be called restorable or it might also be a candidate for converting to a usable centerfire caliber.



If it is a #2, then rebuilding it into a 25-20 WCF would be a great way to go but then again you better had check over the condition of the whole gun before proceeding.
#2's a quite rare and have good value even in rough condition. If the condition is such it still has collectable value then if you really must do some converting , it might be a smart idea to just sell it to someone who will restore or just keep it as is ( it will bring more than you think !!!) and pick up a small Martini action or action gun and go from there.

:drinks:
You are correct , I was told that fitting an extractor would correct some of the "droopitus" you mention?Also there is a considerable amount of erosion , I am hoping to try the bore first but I may have to set it back a bit.This rifle has very little collectors value and that is the reason I would like to turn this into a shooter.
I also have a Favorite in .25 Stevens that I would like to shoot but it is a nice unmolested rifle that I could not change.


Thanks for clearing this up , I guess it being a #2 explains how the extractor is not the same as the #4 in .22.If you look closely you may be able to see the parkerized color of the barrel.It doesn't look "right" to my untrained eye , you can see tooling marks like it wasn't polished.I am almost certain it is a re barrel.However the action is very nice and tight and no idea why they did a re-barrel.It is not stamped anywhere but I was told it was a 32-20.A dummy round will chamber just fine.I am not certain of the value but it isn't a collector grade for sure.
As far as Martini's go I like them very much as well.I have a couple of Greener actions , one I turned into a 16ga. shotgun as I had a threaded barrel that I took in on a deal years ago.I have another that has a 45-70 barrel on it but it has no other parts than a receiver shell.That is another project for another day.I do need to get with the program and pick up a cadet.I have always wanted one , but have never found a good deal.Thanks again for the help.

[alrighty]

alrighty,

The Rolling Block is a No. 2, it is the only Remington RB that has a curve at the stock junction.

The extractor is the sliding type, retained by the small screw towards the top of the action. I don't have a camera right now or I would send you a picture of the extractor. IIRC Frank Dehass didn't recommend these actions for high pressure loads in .32-20.

I have one in .32 Rimfire that I shoot .32 Colt (both Short and Long) out of with a centerfire breechblock. It is a fun little gun.

Robert

Thank you , I will probably take you up on the picture.First I need to complete the 97 Winchester and then start on the Stevens.I wish I could find some local help with these projects.No clubs around here to speak of , a couple of smiths but they are more of accessory adders and scope mounters than anything else.I have to rely on books and the internet or just sit down and make it happen.I hate to tell you how many sears I made for a S&W D.A. Frontier in .44 Russian before I made one that would actually work.Luckily I had Weisner's book of gun drawings that had a one dimensional print.I think if I can fit a sear I should be able to handle an extractor.If I had a print or a picture.Like I said a gunsmith I ain't.:
That reminds me, a print might be in his book concerning these rifles.I need to check that out.

[badgeredd]

Just a thought here, but have you contacted

http://www.rollingblockparts.com/no-2.html

for help with the extraxtor? I contacted them a few years ago with some questions and they were very helpful.

Edd

P.S. I see they don't have the extractors but they may be able to give you some useful info on them.

[Reg]

An update.
Accuracy has been good but was still getting fouling in the bore and was thinking that perhaps the 45-45-10 simply was not making the trip down that long barrel or perhaps the Pyrodex was burning with a bit more heat causing the lube to fail. Anyway still using the Lyman 313445, lubed the as cast bullets as per normal with the 45-45-10 then sized .308 with a push through sizer then pan lubed with Ed's black powder lube. Fouling has gone away and accuracy has actually picked up even more with groups running one to one and one quarter inch at 50 yards. Have now changed out the scope to get away from the 3/4" tube to a 7/8" tube with clearer optics and will try again next week.

:popcorn:

[Chev. William]

Something to try with the Stevens Favorite in .25 Stevens RF: There is a .25 Caliber Powder Tool load that comes in Plastic strips of ten loads each and are sold through Home Depot here in Southern California. They measure .248" body diameter, .050' rim thickness, and .296" rim diameter. Hobby Shops usually sell .014" wall Brass tubing in 9/32" diameter by 12" long. Cut a short piece, about one inch long (I suggest using a small 'roller' type tubing cutter), deburr the cut ends, and run it through a Lee .25ACP Carbide sizing die with the decap pin and Collette removed. You will need to have a small .25ACP or something similar to push the last bit of the tube through the carbide ring and out the top of the die. The 'drawn piece of tubing should now measure about .275" OD and about .246" ID. The Tool Load should fit a .25ACP Shell Holder snugly and then you should be able to press the drawn piece of tubing over the Load body with about the same force as used in priming a CF case. Adding some form of 'Glue' to the joint would be a good idea as long as you do not fill the 'extraction groove, the shell holder leaves in place on the assembly. This should end up measuring around 1.125" or less assembled length, the same or less than a .25 Stevens case. Yes, the rim is smaller than the original Stevens round, but it seems to be big enough to chamber and extract properly. I do not think you will need add any powder to the typical Grade 3 load, just a bullet pressed lightly into the otherwise empty case.

I have made up some of these to give my Gunsmith something to test a RF 1894 series Stevens Favorite Action with after refurbishment. By the way, my .25 Stevens Chambered barrel measures, via a slug, .248" Bore and .252" Groove diameters and is 21.75" overall length, a five sided 'half octagon' Stevens pattern marked "J. Stevens A & T Co." and ".25 Stevens", with rifling visible full length but a pitted bore.

Just one method of addressing the RF cartridge availability with presently available components.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Reg]

Have you tried this ? Any results ?

[Chev. William]

To date, they are with my Gunsmith, We checked one in the barrel and chamber for fit and head spacing with good visual results. The Receivers are both disassembled to individual component parts for inspection and cleaning before reassembly with new, higher strength pins and screws. He still has to fit the new extractors I purchased from "Wisner's" and the barrel retainer screws are new purchased from "Jack First". the first firing will take place by my Gunsmith After he completed the Rebuilds, that is why I suggested others might try out the idea also. Since my receivers are a 'Back Burner, when time permits" project to keep the costs down for me, I do Not have a scheduled completion date. I just trust my Gunsmith to do it well and correctly and hand me back reliable actions with the barrels properly head spaced for safe use at a cost I can afford.

As to using the Grade 3 (Green tipped) Powder Tool Loads (rated - Green 490 ft/s (150 m/s)) for primer and propellant, I have in the past used Grade 7 (Nickle case and Grey tipped) Loads (rated - Nickel/Grey 845 ft/s (258 m/s)) that were built in .22 Shot Shell cases, in a Sturm-Ruger Standard .22LR Automatic Pistol with a Steel machined 'twist locking' Blank Firing Adapter (BFA) in Military Counterinsurgency Security Training. I have fired over 100 of them and the pistol functioned perfectly, no FTF or FTE or maintenance issues at all, unless someone tried to use it with the BFA not attached. At night it threw a flame about 12 to 18 inches out the front and had a 'Report' like a Much Larger Caliber Firearm. It was Very effective in getting the attention of inattentive security trainees in the exercises. I did not have to repeat the lessons with any I encountered in my infiltrations. This was many decades ago and I have since re-barreled the pistol with a Bull Target weight of longer length and fitted it with adjustable "Iron" sights and custom Walnut Grip panels.
Best Regards,
Chev William.

[Chev. William]

For your information, here is a Quote from another Thread and Post on Powder Tool Loads.

"Industrial Powder tool loads come in a range of power ratings from 1, the weakest, to 12, the strongest. They also come in two types of closures, Star crimped and roll crimp over a seal wad. I would think the Star crimped ones would work similar to the Olden Times Bench Rest shooters technique of loading a bullet then inserting a Cartridge with a wad crimped in the mouth, to get the bullet exactly positioned where they thought they would get maximum accuracy. The roll crimped ones could also be used but I would worry about wad residue left in the bore for the next round to find.
Wikipedia provides this list:
"Color-coding for the "rounds" or "single shots" (the three shot strengths or colors typically sold to the general public are brown, green and yellow in brass):
In brass casing:
Color-coding Velocity
(1)- Grey 315 ft/s (96 m/s)
(2)- Brown 385 ft/s (117 m/s)
(3)- Green 490 ft/s (150 m/s)
(4)- Yellow 575 ft/s (175 m/s)
(5)- Red 675 ft/s (206 m/s)
(6)- Purple 755 ft/s (230 m/s)

In nickel (silver) casings:
(7)- Grey 845 ft/s (258 m/s)
(8)- Brown 935 ft/s (285 m/s)
(9)- Green 1,025 ft/s (312 m/s)
(10)- Yellow 1,115 ft/s (340 m/s)
(11)- Red 1,205 ft/s (367 m/s)
(12)- Purple 1,295 ft/s (395 m/s)"

I have also seen a listing for a intermediate loading with a brass case and Blue tip but do not remember it's place in this range of loadings. The velocity ratings obviously apply to some standard fastener and it's positioning in the tool and the tip to point of impact distance, as All Tool usage requires the 'muzzle' of the Tool to be in strong contact with the target point to release the safety and allow the tool to fire.

Loads are listed as available in .22, .25, and .27 calibers."

[mikeym1a]

If I could just figure out how to post pictures here ( says my files are too big and darned if I can figure out or learn how to shrink them , I am not very computer literate) I would like to post quite a few.

:-?

I use a photo manipulation program for that. Personally I use Corel's PaintShopProX3. I reduce the sized of the photos by about 66%, and they usually come out useable.

Before I switched to Win7 OS, I used an old copy of the the original Paint Shop Pro 5, before Corel bought them up. It was easy to use.

[Bent Ramrod]

Shrink pictures dot com is free and works well. The 750 setting makes good sized pictures for this forum. You have to do them one at a time, but it doesn't take long to do three or four. If you want to do batches, the app is available for a fee.

[Chev. William]

Further Trials on experimental Rimfire substitute .25 Stevens cartridges:
1. I still do not have a firearm to use these round in so actual firing testing has NOT been done.
2. loading technique for the original proposed and built rounds showed a very sensitive retention pressure/tension difficulty for the Powder Tool Load (PTL) in the piece of drawn Brass tubing. The PTL was held more than finger pull tight but subsequent belling of the tube mouth lifted the tube off the PTL when the press ram was lowered, Then after the bullet was seated, lowering the press ram again pulled the PTL out of the bottom of Tube/bullet assembly.
3. Trials with nail lacquer were good at sealing the finished round but also poor in assembly process retention.
4. An attempt was made to swage down the PTL end of the tube slightly in a Forster Trimmer collette bore, which resulted in about .001" to .002" maximum reduction in tube diameter in the PTL fitting area. This increased the pressure needed to seat the PTL and successful belling of the partially assembled 'case' but again the PTL pulled free after seating a bullet. Re-seating the PTL seems to take the same amount of pressure as before.
5. I also tried 'Blue', or removable, Locktite thread liquid as an aid in retaining the PTL with mixed results so far, some PTL stay in the 'case' throughout the asembly of the full round, some do not, so it may be a technique sensitivity problem in appling the Locktite.
6. I have also bought a small quantity of 'permanent' Locktite to try in these experiments but have not done so yet.

Conclusions to date:
A. The original use of simple drawn tube to hold the PTL, if care is taken in preping the tube before assembly, may be sufficient for use in our firearms.
B. The 'swageing' of the end of a piece of drawn tubing may be a possible way to increase seating and retention tension of the PTL, but a better way to swage the end of the tube will need to be found.
C. Use of Locktite may be better than nail Lacquer as a 'glue' appears to be a good idea.
D. Removable Locktite is better than nail Lacquer but may be bettered with 'permanent' Locktite, further experimenting is indicated and planned.

I hope this update is useful.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Willbird]

One thing strikes me about very light loads in general (what the OP started with in the 32 favorite) they might develop MORE thrust than a heavier load that actually expands the case so it adheres to the chamber walls.

In this case it seems that the action itself is borderline strength for the ctg used when smokeless powder comes into the equation.

But Ackley did some interesting experiments with weakening actions and then firing full pressure loads that showed that bolt thrust is not as simple a situation as we might think.

Bill

[Chev. William]

Reg , thanks for posting the picture.Sweet looking rifle indeed.
I am needing some help to try and get my rifle working.I have a Stevens model 44 in the .38 rf.I am wanting to go with a 38 long colt and black powder as this seems to be the easiest conversion.I have a 1877 Colt Lightening so I already have some brass stashed.First though I need to find an extractor ,does anyone make parts for these old rifles?If I could just find a detailed print it would be of great help.I am a machinist but in no shape or form could I be considered a gunsmith.Thanks again and sorry for the hijack.Thanks to all for the great information in this thread.

Two sources I have had good luck with in getting parts for Stevens Favorite series rifles are "Wisner's" and "Jack First" but note with "Jack First" you need to initially order their three volume illustrated parts catalog so both you and the order taker can look at the same illustrations and identify the part you want by the index numbers they use with the illustrations.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Reg]

One thing strikes me about very light loads in general (what the OP started with in the 32 favorite) they might develop MORE thrust than a heavier load that actually expands the case so it adheres to the chamber walls.

In this case it seems that the action itself is borderline strength for the ctg used when smokeless powder comes into the equation.

But Ackley did some interesting experiments with weakening actions and then firing full pressure loads that showed that bolt thrust is not as simple a situation as we might think.

Bill

"MORE thrust------
This is true. It is one of the things I have noticed with most of the light, smokeless loads we have tried, the lack of really proper sealing which would translate to a lack of the case properly gripping the chamber wall.
The Pyrodex loads are a bit hotter and do seem to be properly sealing and are still preforming very well. Need to chronograph these loads. Still have yet to try the loads on anything but paper but we have had a light freeze just the other morning and should have a heavy freeze in the next week or so and can then try it out on rabbits.
I think you are right saying the action itself is borderline when using smokeless powder.
It seems that not only with this action but also with many of a similar design and construction you can actually do much more with them staying with low ( Black ) pressure powders. Even if the pressure's are close to the same , it seems that the pressure's are delivered in a different manor. In a more longer drawn out way rather in such a spike ?????????? Am guessing here.

[Chev. William]

Alrighty,
"I also have a Favorite in .25 Stevens that I would like to shoot but it is a nice unmolested rifle that I could not change."

Have you thought about checking the various auction sites for a 'spare' Breech Block to fit your Stevens Favorite?

I have had good luck so far in finding some of the parts I wanted to have spares of for my series 1894 Favorites and I noticed a few auctions had Breech Blocks alone or Breech block-link-lever groups available for the 1889 and 1915 series in addition to the 1894 series.
There was even one for a Model 44 Breech Block just recently.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

"MORE thrust------
This is true. It is one of the things I have noticed with most of the light, smokeless loads we have tried, the lack of really proper sealing which would translate to a lack of the case properly gripping the chamber wall.
The Pyrodex loads are a bit hotter and do seem to be properly sealing and are still preforming very well. Need to chronograph these loads. Still have yet to try the loads on anything but paper but we have had a light freeze just the other morning and should have a heavy freeze in the next week or so and can then try it out on rabbits.
I think you are right saying the action itself is borderline when using smokeless powder.
It seems that not only with this action but also with many of a similar design and construction you can actually do much more with them staying with low ( Black ) pressure powders. Even if the pressure's are close to the same , it seems that the pressure's are delivered in a different manor. In a more longer drawn out way rather in such a spike ?????????? Am guessing here.

From my reading on the various Forums and Threads on .25ACP and my experiments with .25 Stevens CF equivalent cartridge developments:

The applicable Powders are somewhat different between Pistols and Rifles.

Whereas in the .25ACP relatively quick burning powders in small charges (1.0 to 1.6 grains) 'work' because the peak pressure occurs before the bullet exits the case and most combustion is complete before the bullet exits the short (2" to 2.5" Pistol barrel), in our longer cases and barrels, it is advantages to use a slightly slower burning powder to provide a less sharp peak pressure to the bullet while still having the peak occur before the bullet leaves the case.

"Tuning" the Peak pressure level by experiment with with charge weights for each candidate powder is probably the only way we will find what is the 'best' smokeless powder for these cartridges and actions.

As to Black Powder use, it is usable in the manor generally used in firing Black Powder Cartridges in that the case net volume should be filled with the BP charge, and slight to moderate compression fo the charge is usually advantageous to smooth and accurate results.
My developmental ".250ALS" CF cartridge at case length of 1.125" holds 9.0 grains of BP with slight compression, which is less than the reported charges used in the .25 Stevens Long RF cartridge (10 to 11 Grains of BP) so it is slightly lower in speed and muzzle energy to begin with.
A longer case, of 1.250" length holds between 10 and 11 grains of BP, but will not fit in an original ".25 Stevens Long RF" chamber due to its longer length.
A shorter case, of 1.055" length holds about 8 grains of BP. And the .25ACP case of .610" length holds 4 Grains of BP behind a "Ranch Dog" design 'TL256' nominal 50gr Cast Lead bullet, compressed when loaded to .850" overall length. I do run the loaded round into a Sizer die to get the final bullet diameter down to the .25 Stevens Chamber diameter.
My Stevens barrel for this caliber slugs .248 Bore and .252 Groove diameters.

If you own a copy of the 'QuickLOAD' software, you can 'experiment' on paper to see the variations in peak pressure, muzzle velocity, and muzzle energy, etc. by loading the .25ACP data base then modifing the Barrel length, case length, and net volume to match the .25 Stevens dimensions and substituting various powders and charges. This is Relatively easy to do and is NO danger to your actual firearm as long as you do not load and fire the high 'peak pressure' charges that may show up. Keep the Peak below around 14000psi, and probably below 11000psi for any starting charges you think about trying.

By my calculations using known dimensions of the Stevens Favorite 1894 series in .32 Long RF, and .25 Stevens Long RF, I believe the firearms should be safe for up to 14,500psi Pmax in the .32 Long and about 33,000psi in the .25 Stevens, slightly more if the action pins and screws are replaced with high strength heat treated Alloy Steel parts. A reasonable starting load would not be any where near these pressures, and if the loads are set up for subsonic or barely supersonic velocity there would be no pressure problems over time and use. A strengthened action could use loads of supersonic velocity, within reason, to improve the "high trajectory" for ease of long range target shooting, although then the bullet will be affected by the transonic velocity transition in flight, which is 'somewhat detrimental to accurate target work'.

These are my conclusions and thoughts on these cartridges and firearms to date, and are NOT intended to persuade anyone to exceed their own personal firearm limits.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Another Source for useful reloading dies for .32 Long and Short Colt is "Old West Bullet Moulds" as the owner will make a modified Collette type "Factory Crimp Die" to crimp .32 Colt cases o fvarious lengths, and it will allow adjustment to crimp heeled bullets. I just Today received the one I ordered and it appears to be well made and will last quite well, it is all quality machining and Very Professional in appearance and packaging. The owner also sent along three different .32 Bullets for me to look over.

Best Regards,
Chev. William