Aguila 12 ga, 'shorty' slugs

[Jim]

A friend recently gave me a few dozen 12 gauge slugs made by Aguila. The shell is only 1 1/2" long. I thought they would be a lot less powerful that 'regular' slugs. I fired a few and they seem to be right up there with other slug loads I've fired.

Y'all ever seen these?

http://floydpics.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/dscn1168-e1348755959912.jpg

[Silvercreek Farmer]

The ad for them in Natchez is real funny, first they say it will increase the capacity of shotguns with tube magazines, then goes on to say that they probably won't cycle in pump/semi-autos!

What did you shoot them out of?

[Jim]

The ad for them in Natchez is real funny, first they say it will increase the capacity of shotguns with tube magazines, then goes on to say that they probably won't cycle in pump/semi-autos!

What did you shoot them out of?

An H&R single shot with a 'front door' barrel.

[Doc_Stihl]

I've run these through an 870 with good results. They'll work in my mossberg 500's if you cycle them quickly.

Accuracy was great with them as well. They make a buckshot version too.

[Al in Mi]

what's the speed on them?

[sargenv]

Not only have I seen them, but I've recycled my AA's that have the crimp worn out and I've re-used the hulls after chopping about 3/4 of an inch off the top and then using them one more time for a roll crimped load.

[RU shooter]

When those first came out a number of years ago there was a company that was going to make a reduced sized 12 ga. shotgun expressly for their use I think it was called "trident" something or other ,with an 18.5 barrel it would have like a 8-9 rd capacity. Pretty neat idea but I guess it never came to be ,Heck I would have bought one. I still have a handful of the slug loads and see them for sale occasionally at the gun shows.

[UNIQUEDOT]

The ones i have are loaded with 7.5 shot, but i have seen the mini slugs and buckshot too. The birdshot rounds have a clear plastic OS disc. These are loaded in Mexico and the mini slugs/buckshot rounds are used by Mexican police in repeaters modified to reliably cycle them. I bought my mini shells years ago and the ad told about the police in Mexico using them and about the guns and why they needed the extra capacity etc.

[longbow]

A word of warning if anyone decides to try to reload a similar round ~ don't use Foster slugs or at least not if you do not have a published or known to be safe recipe!

Not sure what the "mini slugs" are (Hollow base? Solid?) but many years ago I decided to load up some shorty rounds like that so used a Lyman book recipe for a Lyman Foster slug except that I used a short wad column of hard card wads. First problem I had was wads blowing into the hollow base and stretching slugs.

So being the smart lad I was I decided to fill the slugs with cornmeal to stop the wad from blowing into them. Well that seemed to work and recoil was now pretty stout! I am guessing a little too stout because I blew the top of the chamber off my single shot 12 ga.!

The remains of the barrel showed that the soft Foster slug had swollen up as it left the very short hull, filled the chamber then (I am guessing again) met the forcing cone and didn't want to size down quick enough. KABOOM!

As anyone who reloads for shotgun knows or should know, it is best practice to follow shotgun reloading recipes exactly. It is not safe to randomly substitute components. Pressure can increase dramatically due to minor changes ~ one being substitution of a cushion wad with hard card wad column which effectively equals decreased volume. I didn't know that then.

In my case, I think the combination of substitution of the cushion leg with hard card, the short hull and the Foster slug filling the chamber all worked together to produce an over pressure situation.

I had a friend who did the same with 0.715" RB in cylinder bore and never had a problem but of course the 0.715" RB is undersize and doesn't swell to fill the chamber or bore. Since he had no problems, I was sure the lighter Foster would be safe loaded the same way. Not so.

YMMV but that's what happened to me.

Longbow

[Artful]

I used to use those when I competed in 3-gun - ups your capacity - then they changed the course from shooting steel to clays so had to go back to shot. But they worked well in 870 provided you didn't try to work the slide slooowwly

[John in WI]

I started reloading for my 12 gauge with the idea I would try making 2" shells to up my capacity. But I couldn't find much data for 2", and only a little bit for 2.5". But a huge amount for 2 3/4". I really should get a box or two of those little guys and see if they cycle right in my Mossy 500. I've seen some instructions on the web for modifying them to work better but the whole thing made me a little nervous. The only reason I would even want increased capacity would be for a defensive role, and if they don't cycle, then what good is it?

I really should resurect the idea. At least buy a box of the commercial 2" stuff and see if it's worth pursuing or not.

[gfisher]

There was a company in South Africa making a small magazine fed pump shotgun that used these. It is called the MAG-7 and a few were imported into the USA. I had one for a short time, it was ok but the mags were hard to load, and at the time I owned it, the Aguila Shells were hard to come by. I ended up selling it. Attached is a picture I found on the web of the MAG 7, mine had a Black painted Wood stock, but otherwise looked pretty much like this one.

-George

[dnotarianni]

Been there done that Loaded both shot and slugs ( round Ball ) for a mossberg 500 with good results. Had to add a little to the metal tab on the elevator and they feed with no problems. Used published loads for AAs and just changed the wad with one from Balistic products that was shorter to get a stacked column. Ran OK and didn't blow anything up and was able to get 10 shells in a 7+1 mossy with speedloaders but rules got changed and got dumped into open class shooting against clip fed autos. Needless to say I gave that idea up as a passing fancy. Trick was to either roll crimp or you have to ream the end of the cut hulls to crimp.
Dave

[Bneuberger]

Used published loads for AAs and just changed the wad with one from Balistic products that was shorter to get a stacked column. Ran OK and didn't blow anything up and was able to get 10 shells in a 7+1 mossy with speedloaders.
Trick was to either roll crimp or you have to ream the end of the cut hulls to crimp.
Dave
You think this can be applied to the aguila type slug?

[Bneuberger]

I am using STS and 17gr red dot with dra12, cut petals to get a sub 2" 7/8 lee slug. Looking to go shorter by maybe using a steel shot cup or separate gas seal and cup. Any thoughts?
I know we're Rez a post from 2012 but I'm sure you've gained experience and wisdom since then!

[Y-man]

I have had concerns with the possible jump to forcing cone for slugs in short shotshells.


I reload recasted shot as Lyman 525 slugs into regular target shells, and with a roll-crimp; I get shorter shells as the final result - 2 inches thereabouts. I have been worried that this could lead to pressure issues or possible obstructions at the worst, and poor accuracy too.


I have also done some casting of .729 regular lead (recast from shot) Round Balls. Using some hard plastic donut wads in a regular target shotshell.


I have not yet had the chance to test by shooting.


I have watched videos and read up on the performance of these Aguila slugs, and I see that there is no negative effect or impact of the jump to forcing cone. And they are even shorter!


At least before I get the chance to go testing on my new Mossberg 500A Rifled Barrel (chambered for both 2.75 and 3 inches) can I get all the advice I can get from you guys?


Has any one got any additional advice/ pointers? Would I be on the right track the way I'm going?

[Bneuberger]

It's hard to say what the result would be with factory charges, because there is not enough data. The pressure south of the load in the gas seal area will be fixed, but by changing the crimp, and possibly squeezing the slug into the pedals, then the hull the pressures can change dramatically.
If you decide to fire those let us know how it goes.
It is my understanding that if shot pushes out of the shell from the bottom up and has a fixed resistance, then your slug should have that same resistance to get a similar chamber pressure. Happy shooting!

[BAGTIC]

Reportedly they cycle best in Winchester pumps but other brands can be made to function with a little tuning. Remember most of a shotshell adds little to power it mostly adds volume to accommodate the bulky shot charge.

[bikerbeans]

I load 12ga shotshells with a finished length of 1.5". Shells are roll crimped with an overshot card, 6 and 7.5 shot. These shells feed reliably in both a keltec KSR and a late model 870. I haven't tried short slugs.

BB

[sluggageslinger]

I load 12ga shotshells with a finished length of 1.5". Shells are roll crimped with an overshot card, 6 and 7.5 shot. These shells feed reliably in both a keltec KSR and a late model 870. I haven't tried short slugs.

BB

I'm not the worlds most accurate typer so certainly no criticism intended, but I assume you meant KSG? I'm just starting to load for my new KSG as well as for shotgun. Can you point me to a recipe for these short shot shells? I would like a softer recoil load so that my 5'1" wife would feel no reluctance in pulling the trigger on a 12 gauge. She is totally cool with a 20. How do your shorties compare to a 20 gauge?

[bikerbeans]

Hi and welcome to CB,

Yes, it is a keltec ksg.

Recoil is a lot lighter than a 20ga field load. Loads are used at 3-gun shots where the range to targets are usually less than 20 yards.

I did not find book data for these shorty shells. I worked up my own loads and shot hundreds to convince myself they are safe in my shotguns.

I have seen factory 12 and 20 gauge reduced recoil loads for sale. IIRC, they were 2 3/4 inch shells. I have never tried a reduced factory load so I am unsure how much lighter the recoil is compared to a standard load.

BB

[sluggageslinger]

I'm loading and testing some 2 3/4 AA's with a couple of low recoil recipe Thursday. I've sampled a friends version of this recipe pushing 1 ounce slugs. I'm using Lee 7/8 mold. Sure would like to make up some shorty buck shells to test. Sure would like to have a road map if anyone cares to share?

[Spector]

I still have a few of those mini slugs out in the den. I remember the velocity was over 1200 fps fired over my Pro Chrono years ago out of my Ithaca 37 with 18+'' cylinder bore barrel. They fed from the tube if you worked the action fast and positive, but if you forgot they became real sketchy and would jam. I remember I was impressed with the little rounds except for the sketchy feeding issue. I keep the side saddle shell carrier loaded with 5 rounds of Sellier & Bellot 12 ball ''00'' buck shot now.........Mike

[longbow]

Check out the BPI site:

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Technical-Brochures/products/111/

There are two brochures that should help: Brochure: English Style Game Loads (http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Brochure-English-Style-Game-Loads/productinfo/00BENGLDS/) and Loading Shortened Hulls (http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Brochure-Loading-Shortened-Hulls/productinfo/00BSHORT/)

Also check their Load of the Week Archives. Lots of good stuff here and I am sure they have some light load info:

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/loadoftheweekarchive.htm

Longbow

[sluggageslinger]

Thats four aces info Longbow. Thanks!

[sluggageslinger]

Thanks, Spector

The KSG supposedly had the 1&1/2" short rounds as a design consideration. Of course, there is a lot of controversy over anything keltec and that statement is likely a bone of contention for that reason alone. This looks interesting though, huh?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSDdn3cYIfc

[William Yanda]

Reportedly they cycle best in Winchester pumps but other brands can be made to function with a little tuning. Remember most of a shotshell adds little to power it mostly adds volume to accommodate the bulky shot charge.

I seem to recall a warning against using short shells in some Winchester models.
Bill

[elvas]

Some reloads with short shells at a loaded length of 47mm from cut out 2-3/4" hulls, loaded with round balls gave excellent performance with no mulfanctions in both pump and semi-auto Benelli shotguns. With the pump I had to cycle the action fast when ejecting spent hull so as the hull will not stay in the action, but this is common in these guns with 2-3/4" hulls also.

[longbow]

I'll add a warning from personal experience...

Don't use hollow base slugs for short loads. I had a shotgun blow up using a book load from the Lyman Shotshell Reloading manual using Dupont PB and the Lyman Foster slug.

Two issues were obvious and one wasn't:

- deviation from the book load ~ shortened hull (2" or 2 1/4" IIRC)
- the slug obturated in the chamber as lead showed from the mouth of the hull to the forcing cone
- removing a cushion leg can cause higher pressure due to less volume at ignition (no crush)

These were basically just a shortened hull with the cushion leg removed from the wad column and plastic gas seal over the powder.

There was no possibility of a double charge because the components wouldn't fit if I had double charged. It appears that the combination of removing the cushion leg and the hollow base slug expanding to fill the chamber before hitting the forcing cone pushed pressure up too high.

In any case, the top of the chamber blew right off the gun. I was lucky and got away with just some hearing loss and a few minor scratches. It could have been much worse.

A round ball or solid slug (Brenneke style) would not obturate so no problem there.

Longbow

[Smoke4320]

I'll add a warning from personal experience...

Don't use hollow base slugs for short loads. I had a shotgun blow up using a book load from the Lyman Shotshell Reloading manual using Dupont PB and the Lyman Foster slug.

Two issues were obvious and one wasn't:

- deviation from the book load ~ shortened hull (2" or 2 1/4" IIRC)
- the slug obturated in the chamber as lead showed from the mouth of the hull to the forcing cone
- removing a cushion leg can cause higher pressure due to less volume at ignition (no crush)

These were basically just a shortened hull with the cushion leg removed from the wad column and plastic gas seal over the powder.

There was no possibility of a double charge because the components wouldn't fit if I had double charged. It appears that the combination of removing the cushion leg and the hollow base slug expanding to fill the chamber before hitting the forcing cone pushed pressure up too high.

In any case, the top of the chamber blew right off the gun. I was lucky and got away with just some hearing loss and a few minor scratches. It could have been much worse.

A round ball or solid slug (Brenneke style) would not obturate so no problem there.

Longbow

wow your post is very timely.. was thinking of trying that very thing with my new MP Lyman 525 HB Slug mold ..
NOT NOW thanks to you

[longbow]

Smoke4320:

Not sure if the Lyman 525 gr. sabot slug would suffer quite as much from obturation as the Lyman (or other) Foster designs as most are thin all over and swell to fill the bore... or in my case, the chamber. That 525 gr. slug essentially has a solid nose.

Still, best to test in a "disposable" gun and from a distance.

Of course the best option is to load some up and have them pressure tested. Tom Armbrust does pressure testing for quite reasonable rates. And someone here got some slug loads tested at another outfit recently.

In any case, in the name of safety I would tend to stay away from slugs that are likely to obturate at firing and fill the chamber. Another thing I should mention is that my chamber was 3" as well so that much extra length for the slug to swell though like I said the lead streaks ran from the mouth of the hull to forcing cone. Real easy to see with half the chamber gone!

Here's a question ~ has anyone cut apart one of the Aguila shortys or recovered a slug and if so what sort of slug do they use?

Longbow

[Y-man]

Seems it is a solid slug (Brenneke style) with attached wad.

158078

Great review here: http://www.guns.com/2013/07/03/aguila-minishells-review-video/

[longbow]

Y-man:

Thanks for that. I had seen and skimmed through those reviews before but didn't see the cut hull and slug anywhere. Where did you get that photo?

It certainly does look very Brenneke like. I still like the Brenneke style slugs but have as yet to come up with a way to make them quickly and inexpensively at home.

Longbow