Alloy/BHN selection for SWCs in 1911's

[Bigslug]

I am in the early stages of fiddling with a Lyman 452423 Keith SWC for use in the various family 1911 platforms. As there is more than one .45 involved, these will get sized to a generic .452 and the chips will fall where they may.

I sorted out the seating depth and taper crimp issues last night, and manually cycled some dummys through a couple of different guns. No major issues, and the first test batch goes downrange today.

Since these bullets have a BIG meplat, there is a little bit of impact smearing of the 6:00 corner of the meplat when it hits the feed ramp. This first batch is cast of range scrap that hardness tests at 9.75 BHN, or roughly 23-1. The plan is to possibly use these loads for hunting as well as plinking - I'm wondering if a little harder would help.

What BHN numbers do y'all think should I be looking for?

[Lonestar22]

Because of the shallow rifling in 1911 barrels you should find better accuracy and less leading with a harder bullet. You can harden your range scrap by water dropping the bullets from the mold. You might also consider wheel weights and water dropping the CB’s. Using wheel weight alloy water dropped you should achieve a hardness that is close to Linotype, or as Glen Fryxell calls them a “poor man’s linotype bullet. Hope this is of some help.
Tim

[huntrick64]

I have done a lot of work as well on alloys for my SR1911. I do not have the answers yet (for the hunting bullet), but will pass on what I found out.

Lee 452-200 SWC 6-banger. Couldn't get this mold to throw a round bullet not matter what. Leaded pretty bad due to part of the bullet being .450 and the other part .452. If you are casting pure lead your sizer will correct most of that, but an alloy tends to just bounce back some and is still out of round. Sent it back to Lee and they gave me another one that two of the cavities would throw somewhat round bullets that were at least .452. They sized pretty well and stopped the leading. Bullets from these two cavities shot well, but I was disappointed using only 2 of the 6 holes. Had some feed probs with this bullet as well, but was able to work it out. Had to seat this bullet scary deep in order to get it to cycle.

Bought a MP-200-HP 4-banger with all of the pins. This is an awesome mold and bullet and the one I would hunt with. Penta pin hollow points opened up the best of all, but at 50/50 they still didn't do much in front of 5.8 gr Unique. Will probably look at going to 25 percent WW and up the powder a bit. This bullet shoots great regardless of powder type or load. No leading at all. Also the coolest looking bullet for the ACP (IMO).

I then became obsessed with the accuracy of my SR1911 so I did some smoothing and adjustment work on it and even fitted a NM bushing. Accuracy got even better (about 1 1/2" on bags at 25 yards) Now, keeping with my trip down the accuracy road, I bought another MP mold, this time the MP-200-SWC plain base 4-banger (HG68 copy). This is the "holy grail" of bullet molds. It throws perfect .4525 SWC bullets. The only reason I run them through the Star is to lube them. It does make them .452 but not sure that .0005 difference would matter. A 50/50 bullet in front of 4.5 gr Bulls Eye the gun shoots as good as the mold throws bullets, PERFECT. For target loads I am done, i have found what I am looking for.

For hunting bullets, still messing with alloys. There is a good article on LASC by Fryxell http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCastHP45ACP.htm and he found 7.2 grains unique and 25:1 alloy a good hunting combination. I've loaded that up and it's pretty hot for 45 ACP. Might want to put in a 20lb recoil spring with this.

My advise on range scrap is melt it all together (all you have) and cast a few bullets from that. Test the BHN two weeks later then re-melt it and add whatever you need to get the BHN to 9-10. I have RS that has tested 12 and my last batch tested 6-7. It was so soft it wouldn't even cast without adding wheelweights. Very unpredictable stuff so just combine it all and fix it once.

Hope this helps and let us know what you find out.

[MtGun44]

Soft alloy has worked fine for me in 1911s. AC WWt or softer at .452.

A few, relatively rare as far as I can find out, barrels might have such shallow rifling as
to cause a problem. I have never seen it in a bunch of 1911s. Not prepared to say it
is a myth, just it doesn't seem to be common, at least.

Bill

[fredj338]

I have no issues w/ 10BHN +/- (range scrap) in any 45acp bbl. Even the Lee 200gr WFP runs fine.

[btroj]

I shoot lots of straight range scrap in mine, bet it is around 10 to 12 Bhn.

I like to shoot as soft a bullet as I can.

[williamwaco]

Mtgun44 +1

[bruce381]

whatever melts mostly range lead sized .452 shoots 11/2 at 50 yards of bag with a scope.

[KYCaster]

I've used alloys from 50WW/50Pb to 50lino/50Pb and haven't been able to see any difference in my scores or the amount of lead left in the barrel.

The ding where the nose contacts the feed ramp doesn't cause any issues at all.

Jerry

[Bigslug]

Well, all 50 of the initial test batch fed just fine. Leaded a little in the first inch of throat area which I suspect is the bullets telling me they want to be sized down a little more to .451". I guess I'll do that to the remaining slugs in this batch and run them again with the same load.

Serious accuracy experiments will have to wait for another day, but initial feedback is promising, and they make BEAUTIFUL round holes in cardboard to be sure!

[40Super]

I have a Lyman 200gr swc and it has a different nose shape than the "standard",it always hit the feedramp hard and put a bang marks on the nose also. When I used softer alloys the mark was considerable so I went with a harder alloy also(18ish bhn) and never really could get good accuracy as far as I was concerned. I now bought an "original" H&G #68 and am running 9-11bhn , accuracy has never been better.
I do size my bullets to 2 different sizes though. 2 of my .45 barrels need .452-.4525 and another needs .4545, when I just ran .452 to save the trouble of 2 sizes, the bigger barrel didn't shoot very good and leaded up easily,when it never did with the bigger boolits, even at the softer alloys.

[JScott]

Most of mine have been from 10-13 BHN and I have never had any leading if sized properly.

[gray wolf]

Leaded a little in the first inch of throat area which I suspect is the bullets telling me they want to be sized down a little more to .451". I guess I'll do that to the remaining slugs in this

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First inch of the barrel ? you may need a little bigger bullet, not a smaller one. But I'm just sayin.
Also you may have to drive those 45 ACP bullets to make those HP work.
Or go with a little softer alloy. I have no trouble with a good 200 gr. SWC
at about 875 to 900 FPS, long shot powder and about 1/2 Gr. under
book max does a dandy job.
Stay tuned and I am sure all the photos will come along showing all the flat mushroomed bullets from the HP molds.
B T W I have one and like it a lot. BUT I am not sold on the HP over the flat point that I get from reversing the pins.
Just my opinion.

[Forrest r]

+1 on what grey wolf said

There’s too much emphasis put on the bhn of boolits anymore & too little on proper fit. You need 3 things to get a good quality load from the 1911acp.
1. Correct boolit/bbl fit
2. The correct flaring bell for the boolit your using
3. The correct taper on your loads.
You very well could be doing everything right: Boolits .452, good lube, right seating depth, ECT. Only to find that your taper crimp is distorting your boolits down to .450 or the bell stage on your setup is only opening the case up to .4505 and your shaving/swaging/distorting your boolits when you seat/taper crimp them.
Myself, my bbl slugged out at .450 & I like to shoot .452 boolits in it. It doesn’t matter if I use plain old range lead, ww’s, #2 alloy, I get the same accuracy. I like to water drop my range lead (14bhn) for the 45acp simply because the harder boolits aid in helping my less than stellar reloading practices & keeps the bumps/bruises & the boolit deformation down. The harder lead also keep the lead edge of my bullets that stick out of the taper crimp (.020) clean, crisp & dent free. That is also the front drive band area.

I don’t know what your setup is for reloading the 45acp. I use the lee set with the taper crimp die along with the Lyman m2 flare die. I taper crimp my loads to .471. Why .471? Because the cases I use are .010 thick & .010+.010+.452=.472. That .001 difference is swaging/crimping/holding the boolit in place. I also shoot the MiHec HG #68 clone, what a beautiful boolit!!!!

Loaded boolits with the MiHec HG #68 clone

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/hpsp1250.jpg

A 10shot group @50ft with a .002 oversized boolit & hard lead (14bhn) chronographed @730fps for a 100 shot string

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/38bull50ft_zps126936b2.jpg

Barrel cleanup = 1 patch, that is what my bbl looked like after shooting 150 rounds & using 1 tight fitting dry patch down the bbl.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/barrelwork2.jpg

Good luck, a lot of times it’s the dies or how they’re setup that causes problems in the 45acp. Very rarely is the .452 boolit or the boolit’s hardness the culprit in the 45acp.

[DLCTEX]

I use straight WW for our 45's in all nose configurations with no leading. Water dropping will harden them and I see no difference in effect on leading or accuracy. The 45ACP is marginal for deer/hogs and anything else you may hunt with it will not need expansion.

[40Super]

I do like Forrest, with the taper being bigger than what most tend advise (.469-.470).
Some of mine are getting .455(as long as it chambers) because of thicker walls and oversize boolits, to go down to .470 I would be crushing the boolit. I hate that, after going through all the trouble of sizing my bulles for a good fit,why swage them down when "crimping". Some other guy on another forum just about flew off the handle when I dared to say I did that, no amount of explaining could an understanding be gotten.

[gray wolf]

Nice shooting FORREST and some good advise.
I see to many folks that over think the 45 ACP into the next County.
I have to use what ever metal I can get, I can't pick and choose, and I sure can't buy anything. I have shot every kind of lead and lead mix hybrid and I DON'T have a problem.
I don't think let the chips fall wear they may is the way to go about things.
Most 45 ACP are basic, MOST, not all. ACWW, WW+PB, 50%/50% what ever.
WDWW are just not needed for most shooting.
If your lazy and don't slug the barrel start with .002 over, for most it will be OK.
any decent lube, correct frictional fit of the bullet and proper taper crimp.
If you Lead up front ? go bigger, lead at the end ? check your lube.
Jams, stove pipes FTF, FTE are other issues.
The 45 ACP is an easy pistol to load for, don't over think it. just do the few things you need to do and do them correctly.
IMHO, the HP bullets are nice to cast, and fun also, the molds
we can acquire are beautiful-- but the bullet is way overrated. A 45 makes a huge hole, it's a big slow mover. Keep in mind what it is and what it's not. As a rule It's not a big game killer.
Please Make an effort to Kill quickly and humanly, it's not a good choice for a Bear gun, and it's not a good Deer gun in most hands.
Pleas take note I didn't say never or always.

[MtGun44]

+1 on gray wolf.

.45 ACP is as easy as it gets.

Bill

[ShooterAZ]

+2 on Gray Wolf. Very easy to load. I like the softer boolits with 45acp. 16/1 or 20/1 sized .452. A very light taper crimp, and lubed with White Label BAC, this works well for me.

[Bigslug]

I don't think let the chips fall wear they may is the way to go about things.
Most 45 ACP are basic, MOST, not all.
If your lazy and don't slug the barrel start with .002 over, for most it will be OK.
any decent lube, correct frictional fit of the bullet and proper taper crimp.

It's not so much a question of "lazy", it's matter of multiple 1911's involved. I'm all for giving a gun individual load development, but the .45's are kind of like "tie of the day" around here. As such, a generic "grab the ammo can and go" load is something I'll work to dial in for this caliber.


A 45 makes a huge hole, it's a big slow mover. Keep in mind what it is and what it's not. As a rule It's not a big game killer.
Please Make an effort to Kill quickly and humanly, it's not a good choice for a Bear gun, and it's not a good Deer gun in most hands.

Some truth here, and I have .44's and .357's for more serious pursuits, however:

I've been a life-long student of the 1911, and I consider it a duty to at some point take game with one. While there are certainly better hunting rounds than the .45ACP, the fact remains that it was designed for the sole purpose of rapidly ceasing the activity of a sub-200-pound animal at shorter distances. As deer and pig lack Mauser 98's and bayonets, I figure it to be an adequate 30 yard tool for deer and pig.

[40Super]

The biggest difference is that "200lb animal" isn't as tough skinned or can run off without a bloodtrail only to die later, meat and life wasted. There is deffinately better options for deer and other large game than the ACP. Care and prudance is needed when using it for such.
Have you thought of a conversion caliber, such as my screename, among some others, that boost the ability of a 1911 to a more reasonable hunting option(though still limited)? Some of them are quite a performance step up for use as a hunting round(near or at .44Mag levels).

[Bigslug]

No. And won't. Caliber conversion would defeat my purposes. Odd that the round considered by many to be the end-all, be-all of pistol options for stopping a determine aggressor before he has the chance to stop you is thought by many of the same folks to be unthinkable for a generally smaller, forky-headed, cud-chewing herbivore. . .which people kill with pointy sticks shot off strings all the time. Not saying I'll trade in my .30-06, but the only functional difference between a .45 ACP and a .45-70 is range and depth of penetration. If the size of the critter is within the penetration capabilities of the round at the ranges in question, why not?

A trap I feel we've fallen into is the FBI specs for the "desirable" defense load, which has ammo manufacturers trading penetration for expansion. Fact is, the modern 9mm, .40, .45 stops after penetrating about a foot of tissue only because we've designed it to. With a non-expander, they can go deeper, and with a WFN, they should still crush and tear a fair amount of bone and blood-carrying items. It's no different than the African pro's dangerous game solid scaled down, as is the animal it would be applied to.

[MikeS]

The difference is that a human aggressor usually knows enough to stop what they're doing, and fall down. A wild animal doesn't know enough, and so will run off wounded, possibly not leaving much of a blood trail to follow, and would die a possibly slow, painful death. An animal doesn't know how to get first aid like humans do. A human aggressor that's dumb enough to run away and not seek first aid, and dies a slow painful death ... who cares?

[gray wolf]

but the only functional difference between a .45 ACP and a .45-70 is range and depth of penetration.
And that's not enough of a difference ???.
I hope your not comparing them to each other.
But it seems your mind is made up and you don't want to be confused with the facts. So have at it, and good luck. Shoot early in the day so you can track and dispatch.

[MtGun44]

I have had several friends hunt deer with 1911, 200 SWC at 950 or so. Both had
clean kills, but shot several times - IPSC shooters so very comfortable with rapid
double or triple taps at moderate ranges and both waited until they had good
20-25 yd shots. Boolits exited on small deer, broadside.

Bill

[fredj338]

I would hjave no issue hunting pig or deer w/ a suitable 45acp load, like a 200grWNFP @ 900fps. It will punch a large caliber hole all the way thur a deer for sure. Just keep the range short to guarantee a good double lung or heart shot, dead deer.

[kelbro]

I have killed a couple of deer with my 45 ACP. Also killed a bunch with my 25-20 but they were all 'opportunity' kills and neither caliber would be my choice for a deer hunt.

[Bigslug]

I'm not alone! YAAAAAAAAY!

The .45-ish caliber round ball in common use of Revolutionary War marksmen for the dispatch of British officers at a couple hundred yards would have weighed something to the tune of 150 grains, and might have been a touch over supersonic. Colt Walkers and Dragoons? The most powerful handguns of the early 19th Century, yet basically the same ballistic platform as Tim Murphy's flintlock sniper rifle Considered adequate at the time for stopping not just the other guy, but the other guy's horse. Both using the worst possible projectile shape for aerodynamics and penetration, and both - both amounting to a hot .38 Special or light .357 load, yet considered adequate in their day to tasks far more ambitious than what I've got in mind.

We've spent an inordinate amount of time in the post-WWII years kneeling at the Roy Weatherby Altar of High Velocity. As with much in the way of religions, the dogma of the belief structure and the appearances of the world before us don't always line up perfectly. The FBI has amply documented that short of scrambling brains and spines, successful handgun bullets do their work through (1.) proper placement, (2.) sufficient penetration to the depth of things that bleed profusely, and, provided that 1 and 2 have been met, (3.) enough diameter to make that bleeding as rapid as possible. Speed really doesn't factor into it much. The FBI wants a duty load that will penetrate at least 12 inches in bare Jell-O, and most of them don't do a whole lot more than this due to the braking effects of LOTS of expansion - largely thrown in for the benefit of Nervous Nellies more worried about the outside chance of lawsuits from bystanders injured by "overpenetrating" slugs than actually stopping the threat immediately in front of them. The net effect of all this research is 9mm/.38/.357/.40/.45 ammunition that can generally be counted on to fell a druggie in under ten seconds provided the officer manages to shoot well.

Penetration and expansion can both be moderated by bullet design as well as velocity. I have personally sent a 200 grain .38 (Lyman 358430) through over 18" of gel with a starting speed of only 560 fps.

Short version - I'm not especially worried about being able to break Bambi's bones or penetrate to the Tootsie Roll center of his Tootsie Pop with a WFN .45ACP at what amounts to archery distances.

'Nuff said. Let's get back to alloys for the purpose.