375 bullet

[btroj]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_1643506367d17af6e.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6806)

Bullet started at 283 grains, ended up at 183 after impact on 50 yards berm.

Muzzle velocity was 1700 fps, alloy measured 18 BHn.

i think this will work quite well for deer. I think a bit softer might be better but I am not too worried about the lost weight, their is still plenty left to give good penetration.

Fired from a CZ 550 in 375 H & H using Bens red lube and 27 gr of 2400.

[x101airborne]

At otta get em! Good job!

[runfiverun]

375449 right..
i see some skidding there,looks controlled though by the base and the gas check.

when you get around to it try some slower powders.

[btroj]

I have shot some 4895, shot very well at about 2000 fps. I may need to look at that load more, the 2400 wasn't so good at 100 yards.

[Larry Gibson]

I use 46 gr of milsurp 4895 with a dacron filler under the 375449 out of my M70 three six bits for right at 2200 fps with very good accuracy. I use COWWs + 2% tin + 50% lead and WQ the bullets. Makes an excellent practice and hunting load. I use 36 gr of AA5744 w/o filler under the same bullet cast of COWWs + 2% tin AC'd. They run 1875 fps and are very accurate. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a deer or elk with either load.

Larry Gibson

[Adam10mm]

375449 right..
Is that the 449 or 249? I get those ones mixed up all the time.

[runfiverun]

the one brad showed is the 449 the 375248 is similar but plain based.

the load larry shows with the filler would do quite well,even slowed down a titch.
or an even slower powder like 4064 would work well also.
i need to slow down the powder in my 375 win with the 449 i'm using aa-1680 right now and the load is shooting high enough i can only sight in my win B/B at 200 yds.
but it's right in there for the marlin [kind of a quandry] as i don't have enough brass to load more than maybe 100 rds for each rifle.
i'm running right on the pressure edge with the 1680 and a slower powder would be a benefit.

[btroj]

Larry, I was getting 2150 from my surplus 4895 with Dacron fill. Shot well at 50, need to try it at 100.

I just don't know if I want them going that fast but a little extra speed won't hurt.

I am more concerned with the amount of retained bullet mass. I am so used to hunting with lower speed, higher mass bullets that I take having a complete, if mangled, bullet on impact.

[sav300]

375449 right..
i see some skidding there,looks controlled though by the base and the gas check.

when you get around to it try some slower powders.

Hi Runfiverun.Could you explain about skidding? I am using a 38-55 rb with the Lyman 250gn mold.
Thanks

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, I was getting 2150 from my surplus 4895 with Dacron fill. Shot well at 50, need to try it at 100.

I just don't know if I want them going that fast but a little extra speed won't hurt.

I am more concerned with the amount of retained bullet mass. I am so used to hunting with lower speed, higher mass bullets that I take having a complete, if mangled, bullet on impact.

Retained bullet mass was/is always a concern of mine for hunting bullets also. That's why I use a softer and more ductile alloy so the nose isn't sheared or sloughed off but expands decently. The COWW + 2% tin + 50% lead gives a BHN similar to yours but is far more ductile on impact. at your 1800 fp or so that alloy would also be better and you might not even WQ the bullets to harden them.

However, all said and done your load with that bullet will kill deer all day long.

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

if you look at the top boolit in the picture you can see how the boolit has wide grooves at the front of the boolit.
and the rifling marks start to narrow down as they approach the rear of the rifling.
what is happening is that the boolit is being pushed forward and the rifling is trying to make it spin but the forward momentum is overcoming that.
the faster powder is pushing harder at the start and not letting the boolit get a purchase on the rifling.
a slower powder has a slower rise in pressure [it's still moving the boolit forward but slower at the start] allowing the whole boolit to get into the rifling gain a grip and start spinning then it is accelerated along.
you'll see a lot of talk about the launch,and bearing length being important with cast and this is exactly what is being talked about.

btroj is using a 18 bhn boolit and it stil has wide cuts at the front of the boolit from the 2400 powder,and his accuracy is suffering.
he was showing better accuracy with a slower powder in nearly the same velocity window,which is quite common.
partially because of the initial pressure rise and partially because of holdng pressure longer behind the boolit as it accelerates down the bbl allowing some flexibility of the alloy to overcome any inconsistencies in the bore.

now what does this pressure have to do with anything?
if you look at a rifles bbl and you have what looks like leading but get nothing on a patch but some lube gunk.
that's the point where pressure is relaxing the boolit you can move that lube smear up and down the bbl by changing powder [gas volumn]
quite often in a rifle you'll see a lube star at the muzzle that's pretty excesive and have good accuracy.
that's from there being enough gas volume generated to push all the way down the bbl [maintain pressure in the system] which is the allowing everything to relax at the muzzle when the boolit breks into the open the lube is still in a wet stage and is flung away,allowing everything in the bbl to be pushed out as pressure drops off.
that's a pretty good ballance if the pressure there isn't 40-50k or too low to be effective.
sometimes things work better by shifting the pressure curve towards the muzzle.

hope this helps.

[btroj]

I may look at going a bit softer on the alloy.

I personally like the softest possible alloy that gives good accuracy at the desired velocity. I like bullets that retain weight if at all possible.

I may have to look more at the 4895 load. The 2400 wasn't too good at 100 yards although where I hunt that is a long shot. Might help if I had a scope on the rifle but that isn't in the budget right now. The factory express sights aren't too bad.

[sav300]

runfiverun,thank you.another lesson in casting and fireing.

[ammohead]

run five run,

Probably the most likely reason that the engraving is wider at the top of the boolit than the bottom is that the top of the boolit has expanded quite a bit. The circumference of a circle grows times pi that of the diameter.

And I would bet that the same circumstances fired into the boiler room of a whitetail sized animal that boolit would loose less weight. A dirt berm builds resistance as the dirt compacts ahead of the boolit.

[runfiverun]

some slumping/set back would lend itself to that happening but this boolit isn't tapered.
and the set back would be much,much less.
coupled with the other indicators [powder speed,hardness,accuracy] i went with the skidding.


in a dirt berm i have different results than i do on animals also, less predictable results in dirt.
oftentimes showing good mushrooming that i wouldn't get in soft tissue.

[gpalma]

Guys, I have a question about that 265gr booolit in .375 caliber (plus gas check). The bullet w/GC weighs 280gr +/-. What bullet alloy/hardness should a guy look at to hunt elk, standing at any possible angle, within 100yds, if that specific bullet could be started at 1925-2000fps?

[runfiverun]

that boolit will penetrate with no problems,retaining weight is done through a non brittle alloy.
i wouldn't be afraid to push ww's and tin [and some soft 20-25%] waterdropped through an elk.
even from a long angle into the ribs,or through from the front,or through both shoulders.
under the conditions you have there, it would be ideal.

[Larry Gibson]

I would not have any concerns about penetration with the alloy/load I use on elk from any angle I would shoot at. My load is probably "overkill" for deer, even the larger ones which is why btroj's load in the OP will kill deer all day long. I suspect my load would even suffice with a Texas heart shot on elk even though I don't take that shot with any bullet any more having already made that mistake a couple times........

Larry Gibson

[gpalma]

i wouldn't be afraid to push ww's and tin [and some soft 20-25%] waterdropped

I appreciate that info. What exactly does that mean...I am a rookie when it comes to cast booolits.

Right now, my friend is casting an alloy that he calls 9+1. Have sent him an email to clarify. He uses that alloy for his paper-patched booolits for his .358Win and blows through both shoulders of 160-200# whitetails with ease.

[runfiverun]

the sight tossed my last response out to somewhere.
i mix 1% tin to ww alloy then add 25% soft lead to the mix and drop the boolits from the mold into cold tap water.
this hardens them to about 18bhn but leaves the malleability of the origional alloy.
others will mix the soft in at higher percentages 50-50 is popular giving a more malleable alloy allowing the boolit to expand more in the animal and only lowering the final bhn about 3 points.
this however will pour a slightly smaller boolit than will work for me [trade off]

his 9-1 alloy i'm gonna guess at 9 parts ww's and 1 part linotype.

he shouldn't need to paper patch the 358 winchester, i use the above 25% soft mix and waterdrop in my 358, using the saeco #248 mold [250gr boolit] and push it unwrapped with 49 grs of rl-19. this is a max jaxketed load.
the 358 is a very cast friendly gun as most 35's seem to be.

[youngda9]

he shouldn't need to paper patch the 358 winchester, i use the above 25% soft mix and waterdrop in my 358, using the saeco #248 mold [250gr boolit] and push it unwrapped with 49 grs of rl-19. this is a max jaxketed load.
the 358 is a very cast friendly gun as most 35's seem to be.
What velocity do you get with that load? Is that around 50K CUP?

I ask because I've been told I won't really be able to get much over 2000-2100fps out of my 358win with cast boolits, and still retain accuracy.

[runfiverun]

the book shows over 2300. [with a 250gr jaxketed]
i am inclined to believe it,i just haven't put it over the chrono.
worked the load shot some groups,worked it a little more,
I called it good as i was at the point where that was about all the recoil i wanted,and the groups were hanging right in the 1" area consistently.
the pressure has to be up near 45-50-k.
the 35's have slow twist bbl's which really help you in the velocity area,same as the 30-30 with it's 12 twist bbl will allow you to push boolits faster with accuracy than the 10 twist 308 will.
untill you start working on custom fit,and special loading techniques.

[gpalma]

Run5Run, appreciate you taking the time to enlighten me.

Presently, my .375Win has a Shilen barrel that they "guarantee" is so close to .3750" groove diameter that you could test the accuracy of your air gauge with it :) My friend tested the throat and he could get a .3759" booolit into the throat and recommended I try that rather than the normally accepted .3760" booolit. We loaded up a stout load of RL7, fired one out his back door and were able to JUST barely get the .3090" booolit back into the case. I'd call it an "ultra precision" slip fit, so the concentricity is def there.

I then load those gas checked 9+1 .309 booolits and proceeded to work up in powder charge with RL7. At 1931fps I can plunk 1.5" groups all day long at 100yds with not the slightest sign of pressure, or fouling in this Ruger #1. The load is 1/2gr over book max.

My dilemma is that this friend is not a spring chicken and I cannot rely on him to cast/size booolits for me forever and I will need to find a source in the future. Montana Bullet Works offers this bullet w/GC in whatever size that I want, heat-treated. Any other good vendors come to mind?

My usage will be 100-200 per year at the very outside as this is my short-range deer/elk rifle for tight cover. It isn't something that I am going to be shooting a lot.

[runfiverun]

my best advise in this situation is to learn from your friend [you will be doing both of you a favor actually]
buy the g/c's and such that you need and put a bunch of them together over a couple of weekends.
the time you spend with him will pay off in knowlege and memories.

[MBTcustom]

I agree, a bucket of WW will last you a very long time, and since you aren't talking about shooting 1000+ rounds per year, you could get by with a small cast iron pot over a Coleman stove, or maybe a 10Lb Lee pot and a ladle. It's really not that hard to do, and its a pretty good feeling to be able to hunt with your own lead.

[rpervin]

Some times things really make the light go on, and this post did it for me. I understand a lot more about this arcane science now.....

[smoked turkey]

I really liked this thread also. I also learned a thing or two. Look at my post count and add to it that I have been handloading/casting for a lot of years, but I still learn from the experienced folks here who are always willing to share their knowledge with those of us who are still in diapers so to speak.

[Jens]

would that bullet work in my winchester 375 lever action? what mould is that? thanks

[runfiverun]

yes it will, it's the lyman 375449.
it works very well in both the win and the marlin 375's.
i size/check to .379 for both my win and marlin levergun.
it does well in the 375 H&H too.