BP in a 38 spc?

[colej]

I've been considering a day when commercially available smokeless is scarce or no longer available, but homemade BP is still an option. :coffee:
I've only ever reloaded using modern smokeless and know very little about BP other than shooting my 44 BP revolver.
So my question: is there any load charts or advice you can offer to reload .38 spc with BP?
what about reloading .410 or 20ga shotshell with BP?

Where does FFFg typically sit in the burn rate scale compared to say Unique, Bullseye, or Lil'gun.

Thank you in advance

[Red River Rick]

If you filled your .38 case full of BP................you'll never even come close to the pressures generated by Smokeless.

Lyman Shotshell Reloaders book may have BP loads for those shotshells that your seeking to load for.

And with regards to the last question................you can't compare BP to Smokeless. Both burn differently. Actually, Smokeless burns and BP detonates.

RRR

[Baja_Traveler]

20 grains of 3f is a nice load for a 38 special. I use it in both my Vaquero and my Rossi 92. I made a special jig to compress the powder charge so I don't distort lead during seating. I also use a .030 fiber wad.

[1874Sharps]

Yes, fill the case up with enough FFFG to a level just a little higher (say, around 1/16 inch) than the bottom of the boolit so that there is no air gap under the boolit. Then choose a boolit with a deep grease groove to hold enough Lube. This lube must be a BP lube, not a smokeless lube. The lube called SPG works quite well. Seat and roll crimp and you are done. You do not even have to size your cases prior to loading. Often that will give better accuracy than sizing.

[Nobade]

I shot two silhouette matches this weekend, hunter's pistol and pistol caliber levergun, using 38 spl. loaded with black powder. 20gr. KIK FFFg, loaded through a 3 foot drop tube, with the 158gr. Snakebite boolit and NASA lube. Guns were a 10 inch Contender and a Browning '92. I used a blow tube before each relay of 10 shots, otherwise no wiping or anything. Won my class with both guns and had a great time making smoke and fire. BTW, pistol runs 950 fps and the rifle runs 1125 fps with this load. 38 spl. and black powder really go together well.

[Maven]

colej, Take a look at this: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=162479

[305bbodyboy]

does anybody know any antique pre 1899 black powder metalic cartidges besides the .43 egyptian approved by the B.A.T.F.E. for "prohibited persons" as per the 1968 gun control act?

[colej]

Thanks Maven (and all others).
So I'll be getting the press out this week and try a few. it sounds like the more you can pack in the better, no worries of overpresure loads with BP I guess?

[felix]

BP seldom will provide more than a 15K CUP peak in any moving side container. ... felix

[Nobade]

does anybody know any antique pre 1899 black powder metalic cartidges besides the .43 egyptian approved by the B.A.T.F.E. for "prohibited persons" as per the 1968 gun control act?

Sort of a thread hijack, but I would call your local ATF field office and ask. They are usually very helpful with obscure questions I come up with.

[cajun shooter]

There are hundreds if not thousands of SASS shooters who load the 38 special cases with 3F black Powder when shooting a BP match or state championship.
Find yourself a copy of Sam Fadala latest book called The Black Powder handbook for a better understanding of the powder itself.
I disagree with the description given by Red River Rick on the way BP releases it's power. The real BP and not the subs burns from the outside in and the more even and round the grain the faster the burn. All BP is exactly the same as far as how it reacts.
The grain size and the effort given to it's polishing process will determine how much energy it will release. A rough grain that is very angular will burn much slower and longer than one that has received more time in the process and has a smooth and even outer surface.
You should use 3F BP with your 38 spl loads.
A very easy way to figure your load is to use a piece of 1/4 wood dowel rod. Lay it beside the bullet to be loaded, even with the base and mark the crimp groove location on the stick. Fill your case with BP until the mark is above the rim of the case. This is your load area and all you do is crimp.
There is no need to use fiber wads in 38 spl. cases loaded with BP. Shoot them and clean your guns with Moosemilk. Then oil for next shoot. Very simple.
Your cases will also need cleaning. The best is to use a rotating type of machine like the Thumblers model B with either Ceramic or the new SS pins with a small amount of water and Dawn/ OXY soap. They will shine like new. Later David

[Baja_Traveler]

Thanks for the little tip on not needing a fiber wad Cajun - a penny saved...

[Dutchman]

Made in Spain - Hermanos Orbeo revolver .38 Special BLACK POWDER ONLY were imported and sold by Southern Ohio Guns (I fergit when). Cost all of $59. Grip frame like Colt but the rest is pure Smith & Wesson including the hand polished mainspring and I do mean mirror polished mainspring. Very smooth actions on these revolvers.

On the left-side of the frame in front of the cylinder is the typical Spanish proof marks.
PN = Polvora Negra = Black Powder

http://images15.fotki.com/v792/photos/4/28344/9895637/DSCF4645h-vi.jpg

http://images51.fotki.com/v747/photos/4/28344/9895637/DSCF4646h-vi.jpg

http://images16.fotki.com/v363/photos/4/28344/9895637/DSCF4648h-vi.jpg

[nwellons]

RE: the Spanish black powder proof.

Mosin Nagants had two different black powder proof marks but they fired smokeless powder.

[Red River Rick]

I disagree with the description given by Red River Rick on the way BP releases it's power. The real BP and not the subs burns from the outside in and the more even and round the grain the faster the burn. All BP is exactly the same as far as how it reacts.


Cajun Shooter:

Hmm. So, when was the last time you set a match to a pile of BP? When it ignited, did it burn from inside the pile out? Or did it happen so fast you couldn't tell?

Just wondering?

RRR

[TXGunNut]

Where does FFFg typically sit in the burn rate scale compared to say Unique, Bullseye, or Lil'gun. -colej

Welcome, colej! Easiest way to learn about BP is to realize that very little we know about smokeless powder applies to Holy Black. When I have smokeless and BP loads for a cartridge (eg 45 Colt) I treat them as two different cartridges. Trying to compare BP and SP is a frustrating approach, just treat the .38 as a straight-walled BP cartridge, nothing more.
As you may know the .38 spl has it's roots in the BP era, go for it!

[cajun shooter]

Rick, I was not putting down on you as a person or trying to start any type of peeee--- match. I have read and liked your postings since I first became a lurker on this forum.
I have studied black powder for many years now and even view the different types on slides under a microscope. I also have loaded all the current brands in comparison test for my own knowledge.
For me to disagree with a statement is not a put down but voicing my own opinion. You stated what yours was; does that mean that I can't have my own view?
This forum and it's members has given me a greater knownledge about several things in the shooting sports.
If you care to look at any book that is written about black powder you will find the information that I posted. Take Care David
PS I don't have the money to spread my BP on the ground and watch it burn, I prefer to put it in my cases to shoot.

[MikeS]

Cajun Shooter:

Hmm. So, when was the last time you set a match to a pile of BP? When it ignited, did it burn from inside the pile out? Or did it happen so fast you couldn't tell?

Just wondering?

RRR

Rick, I don't really know who's right in this disagreement, but one thing I wanted to comment on, just because something happens too fast for us to see, doesn't mean that it didn't happen, only that it happened too fast for us to see.

[Multigunner]

Just looked over a BP cartridge loading guide posted in another thread on this forum.
The company that had the guide published recommended FFG for pistol cartridges of .38 and up.
They used FFFg for .32 revolver cartridges.

I've always used FFFg for my .36 1851 replica front stuffer, and for .32 S&W BP loads.

The .38 Special cartridge case when used as a dipper for loading the .36 will hold 24.5 grains of FFg ,give or take a tenth or so.


PS
a couple of years back I decided to dispose of a bunch of odd remnants of old powders stored in plastic containers, some of which had lost their labels. Among these was about 1/8 lb of BP I'd accidentally contaminated when I poured a few ounces of smokeless into it thinking the smokeless was BP. Good thing I realized my error before using that BP.

I poured all the mixed up powder into a wide mouth open topped can, made a fuse from gasoline soaked strip of cloth and touched it off on the 4th of july.
I wish I'd filmed it. Though there was no explosion the flare and mushroom cloud could have passed for a nuclear test. Speeding up the video would have mimicked a huge explosion.