Snubbies at distance

[David LaPell]

I read something the other day where the author said the snub nosed revolver was pretty much useless after 10 or 15 yards. I decided to put that to the test. I took my little 649 out to 25 yards with some of my small game hunting loads, 130 grain SWC's with 4.7 grains of Win 231. I shot the gun offhand, one handed and you can see for yourself. Trying to even see the sights at that distance were kind of tough and while certainly not good enough for hunting, it certainly would make it hot for an opponent not that I could ever imagine wanting or trying to explain a defensive shooting at that range. Still it did pretty well all things considered.

http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss57/Smith29-2/picture2821_zpse086539f.jpg

[9.3X62AL]

The assertions made by "experts" that snubbies aren't effective past 10-15 yards are HOGWASH, as you very capably illustrated. Nice shooting--tiny grips, crude sighting gear, and all. A violent assailant at that range would have been soundly thrilled, at minimum.

Goblins make up their own rules of engagement. Only statistics indicate that the majority of armed exchanges of finality are at bad-breath distance, and your goblin may not have gotten the memo. At least FAMILIARIZE yourself with your carry gun's and load's performance at extended ranges. Never say "never", never say "always". EVERY range session with my carry guns includes 25 rounds each at 25 and 50 yards.

[Larry in MT]

I remember Bob Munden hitting a 12" balloon @ 200 yards with a Model 60. I've killed Coyotes both with a aluminum Model 38 and a Model 60. They were certainly farther than 25 yards. The Model 60, however, DOES have adj sights.
http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab176/larrykay47/model60005.jpg

[MT Gianni]

In general I interpret the writers that claim this to mean that they can't do it.

[Lonegun1894]

My mom used to have a little Taurus 85 .38 Spl, that I really wish she would have told me before she sold, because I would have gladly bought it due to the accuracy it showed. For what it's worth, this is coming from someone who in general dislikes Taurus due to some bad experiences with a few of their guns. This specific revolver would stay on a 6" paper plate out to 60 yds, and would to 2" at 25yds, even with the standard fixed sights on it. I currently have a Ruger SP-101 that I carry as my back-up, and while I like it and trust it much more than I ever would any Taurus, this snubbie will only do about 3-4" at 25yds with any load I have tried so far, but I have not worked up a specific load for it yet, so I'm hoping this improves. Either way, I don't buy anyone telling me that a snubbie is only good to 10-15yds. The "shooting expert" may only be good to that range, but the gun is almost always better than the shooter holding it. I think we have all proven that to ourselves many times over.

[375RUGER]

With the right gun and load and shooter there is less chance of collateral damage from stray projectiles.
I came home one day to find a 4 pack of wilddogs in the yard. I pulled up the gate and drew the .38 as I got out. The center of my driveway is the 35yd line of my archery range. I dropped the first one right in front of my archery target. The second one fell at 250yds with the 22-250, he only thought he was out of range-he came short.
Snubbies can be very effective beyond 21 feet.

[375RUGER]

Lonegun,
if you want to shoot j-words in the SP, try the Speer 110g GD sometime. It's lighter than I like but is accurate from short barrels which is more important to me. It's deadly too.

[subsonic]

Anybody who can't hit past 15 yards with a snubbie has some issues.

Some snubbies and loads are a crappy combination, but if you treat it like a bigger gun and work loads and practice, you will be very surprised at what they can do. The biggest handicap is the tiny fixed sights. Hard to get a hit when a perfect sight picture throws shots 6ft left of your target at 50yds.... like my SP101 did with anything I fed it. The groups were pretty good though - just had to look at your buddy's target to see them!

Hits, even out to 100yds, on a vital area of a man silhouette, are very do-able.

[Dframe]

I've heard that one for years. Today I just ignore people so uninformed. I regularly shoot my Detective Special at 15 yards, and once knocked over a steel plate at 50 yards in front of several witnesses. Now I'll admit there was a bit of luck involved , but it sure was fun watching all those jaws hit the floor

[mongo]

I have a SP101 in .38 special that I purchased when they first came out. Only authorized to use .38 special, At 25 yds it puts them all in the black. Wanted to change out the cyl. to .357 but Ruger said it cant be done.

[**oneshot**]

I was also told that my 10" barrel, open sight handguns should not be on the 100yd range.

The snubbie is only harder to shoot at longer range due to the sight radius. If you can keep a consistant sight picture then you can shoot them out to way past 25yds.

[Aunegl]

In the mid 90s, I shot IHMSA field pistol using my Taurus 441, 3" barrel. I knocked down just 8 out of 40 targets and three of those were 100 meter rams. It was hard and fun, knowing that I could reach out and touch something at a 100 meters. So it can be done.

[44man]

If the gun and load is accurate then it will shoot far---VERY far.
The problem will be the short sight radius and your eyes.

[I'll Make Mine]

I remember Bob Munden hitting a 12" balloon @ 200 yards with a Model 60.

I've seen him (on Impossible Shots) do that (balloon at 200 yards) with an NAA 2-inch .22 LR -- held upside down. I don't consider "Bob Munden can do it" to say anything about what's actually possible for real people.

That said, I can very consistently hit a human sized silhouette target at 50 yards with my 6" Dan Wesson Model 15 (.357 Magnum, 158 JSP over a stiff charge of H-110) and with my High Standard Sentinel Deluxe (cheap Federal .22 LR); shorter sight radius would be the only thing preventing doing the same with a two or three inch barrel.

[geargnasher]

My wife's Model 36 Chief's Special will shoot into 1.5" at 25 yards repeatedly if I just rest my wrist on a bag or a post using 2.9 grains of BE with a 158 full-wadcutter. It's fun to "show off" with at public ranges, it's minute of coke can accurate at 25 yards offhand even with me shooting it. The stocks are just too dang small, though, can't really "get ahold" of it well.

Gear

[Dale53]

A number of years ago I was VERY active in IPSC. I was relating my match experiences (very positive) of the day before to a shotgunning friend of mine. He made the statement that he thought a 1911 couldn't hit a barn from the inside. It kind of got under my skin and I told him I could hit a mansize silhouette at 100 yards 5 out of seven times in a magazine. Then, I put my foot in my mouth, when I told him, I can hit that silhouette with any handgun you have. "I will load the gun and before it is empty, regardless of your handgun, I will make at least one hit on that silhouette".

Long story short. He traveled to my range (he lived out of town) and brought every handgun he owned. Well, I had to make good. I started with my 1911 - it was standard configuration but had a complete accuracy job with high visibility fixed sights. It would shoot 2" at fifty yards off a Ransom Rest. I had eight in the gun (seven in the mag and one in the chamber). I laid down in the roll over prone position and proceeded to hit the silhouette eight times in the "B" zone. Nice group in the center of the torso.

I started shooting his handguns. I was doing fine and easily meeting my challenge (it was dry and I just watched the hits to learn where to hold with each handgun). Then my "friend" handed me a .38 snubnose (a "J" frame smith). I held on a bush up above the silhouette and hit it the last two shots. He was a believer after that. However, he had a new Model 59 Smith that I figured was a snap. WRONG! It was shooting so bad, that I could hit nothing with it.

I was so surprised that I put the 59 on the bench and it wouldn't even stay on the paper at 25 yards (yep, that large NRA 25 yard target)! My friend stopped at a sporting goods store on the way home and traded it off, post haste!

My friend is a wealthy individual (bird hunts in Mexico, etc). He hangs out at the trap club with a bunch of wealthy people. He told them the story, and they expressed doubt that a forty five could be shot that well. His reply, "Bet your house?" I sure made a believer out of him.

Lest you think that I am bragging, I will tell you we had (at our club) at least a dozen IPSC competitors who could do the same thing on demand. That was a GOOD bunch of competitors, for sure.

FWIW
Dale53

[historicfirearms]

I have a steel plate about 12 X 16 inches hung up in my back yard. For practice I take about 3 big handfulls of 38 spl reloads and start out about 20 yards from the plate. I'll either use my M&P 340 or 442 and if I hit 4 out of 5 rounds on steel I will back up another 10 paces. Most of the time I can make it all the way back to my 100 yard rifle rest before I run out of ammo. Its fun to learn what kind of holdover you need with lightly loaded 38 specials at 100 yards. Flight time is also considerable.

[BD]

I shoot the local steel challenge once a week with a 1911 and a .22. Targets are 5 to 20 yards. My times with the 1911, (which includes a draw) run in the 4 second range, With the .22/45, (no draw, no recoil), run in the 2-3 second range. Once a month or so I shoot this with my .38 snubby carry gun and the times run in the 5 second range. The primary reasons for the snubby being slower are sight picture acquisition and my need to slow dawn and make sure I make the hit as there are 5 targets and I only have 5 rounds, a miss being 5 seconds added, and a miss on the stop plate being 30 seconds added.

I shoot the 1911 and the 22/45 at 100 yards from time to time and I can usually make 3 or 5 hits per mag off hand. The sights are tall enough on both to keep a decent "hold point". The snubby is much harder as the sights are so short that the hold is top of rear sight somewhere on the barrel, all surfaces being dark. On a wet day, (no dust prints), I'm doing good to make one hit out of five on an IDPA cardboard target with the snubby. It's not the gun, it's just that 100 yards exceeds the design parameters of the entire platform.
BD

[357maximum]

I have always looked at it this way.

"THE BOOLIT HAS TO LAND SOMEWHERE"

I have had good days and bad days trying to do "impossile" things with a varied assortment of projectile launching devices. Just ignoring the naysayers and actually trying it will prove a whole lot of them naysayers to be absolutely choc-full-of-bull. I once put 3 out of 5 arrows into a 175 yard 4inch circle with a recurve....I was having a great day and won a few turkeys that I donated back to the club. I would not want to try it today, but if given enough arrows and time......[smilie=l:

[RetAFSF]

I've never tried shooting that distance, stands to reason it can be done. Drawback is the shooters inability to hold the firearm steady, a short barrel increases the probability of missing the target. Takes a bit of practice, practice and more practice.

[.5mv^2]

I remember about 15 years ago. A friend brought out his smith snubby, a bring back from nam.
We were fooling with it and I suggested that he hit a nail head that was sticking out of the target. Was about 20' feet away and took one shot. Flattened the nail off to the side. He handed it to me and challenged me to do the same thing on a different nail. I took aim and flattened another nail. Wow, who knows if we could have done it a second time but I realized the accuracy of a wheel gun. My only handgun at the time was a Ruger P89.

I never got a smith 38 snub but bought a Taurus 85. I got to shooting 158 grain hardcast bullets from it and could hit a small 4x6" gong at 75 or more feet.

Good thread.

[wantoutofca]

A couple of years ago I took a fox and coyote at about 50 and 60 yards respectively. This is with a 2" j frame with 158gr J-word HPs. Dropped both like sacks of potatos.

[subsonic]

A lot of people equate barrel length to accuracy. This is a pretty flawed assumption.

[Roundnoser]

I have a Taurus snubbie that I purchased years ago for CCW (its now the wife's home defense piece).

In my college days, when my eyes were a little better, I shot that gun at 25 yards with great accuracy. ..relatively speaking. The shorter barrel certainly seperates the men from the boys, but it is very do-able. The gun is just a mechanical thing. It does what it does. The hand and eyes behind the gun makes the difference.

[Shiloh]

Don't believe everything the 'authors' say.
There is a fellow I see from time to time who can put 4 out of 5 or better from a Mod 36
in the black of a B-5 pistol target at 25 yards any time he brings it with him. He can swing the mini popper at the plate range as long as he wants.

All it takes is trigger time. Maybe some of the authors could use more of it.

Shiloh

[rintinglen]

I once shot a PPC match that was restricted to 2 inch revolvers, and this was not the abbreviated 25 yard version but the full 50 yard match. The winner shot a 2 inch M-15 Smith and every shot was in the 8 ring or better. (And most were in the 10 ring). I shot a Detective Special and had every shot on target. (But not all in the 8 ring or better.) I also shot a 25 yard course that was restricted to 5 shot 2 inch Revolvers. IIRC, the winner was a 584-15X. Anyone who says snubbies can't shoot at distance is merely saying HE can't shoot.

[NickSS]

I havefired a lot of rounds from various hand guns at ranges up to 200 yards and can say this. If you can fugure out sight picture hitting at longer ranges is no problem. It is also more difficult to shoot accurately with short barrel fixed sight guns than it is to do so with longer barrels. I have a few snub nose revolvers in the 2 to 3 inch barrel range and have no trouble keeping all the shots in the black of a 25 yard pistol target at 25 yards and 80 % of the shots in the black on the same target at 50 yards and one of my snub nose revolvers is an old Iver Johnson break open in 38 S&W. I have also knocked down 8 out of 10 rams with a 6 inch 357 mag at 200 yards. Lots of fun. I will also say that I have seen people shooting at my club who could not reliably hit a full size man silhouette target at 15 yards.

[StrawHat]

When I shot PPC we often had "Off Duty" matches. Usually shot with S&W J frames and 3" barrels or less. The guys who were shooting top scores with their competition rigs were also shooting similar scores with the shrt revolvers. My scores dropped, but not alot.

[jh45gun]

My mom used to have a little Taurus 85 .38 Spl, that I really wish she would have told me before she sold, because I would have gladly bought it due to the accuracy it showed. For what it's worth, this is coming from someone who in general dislikes Taurus due to some bad experiences with a few of their guns. This specific revolver would stay on a 6" paper plate out to 60 yds, and would to 2" at 25yds, even with the standard fixed sights on it. I currently have a Ruger SP-101 that I carry as my back-up, and while I like it and trust it much more than I ever would any Taurus, this snubbie will only do about 3-4" at 25yds with any load I have tried so far, but I have not worked up a specific load for it yet, so I'm hoping this improves. Either way, I don't buy anyone telling me that a snubbie is only good to 10-15yds. The "shooting expert" may only be good to that range, but the gun is almost always better than the shooter holding it. I think we have all proven that to ourselves many times over.

The Taurus 85 I have is very accurate I was surprised when I shot it how good it is.

[kelbro]

There are a couple of impressive Youtube videos of guys shooting them at 100yds and more.

[MtGun44]

Dale - I've done similar, but less exhaustive, "teaching". We used to have a 24" gong at
200 yds. I could hit it 5 for 8 or better with my 1911 IPSC gun and ammo from standing
on a nice day with little wind. On demand. People just won't believe it until you show them.

People just don't know what a decent shot (again, I am fairly good but not the best shot
around here for sure) can do with a handgun. Lots of folks think that if THEY can't do it, it must
be impossible.

The father in law of a friend, when the friend related his observation of an IPSC match years
ago (FIL was a former WW2 USArmy infantryman) was told, "One of those Colt .45 automatics?!
HA! You can't hit ANYTHING with those things. Heck, I'd stand out there and let them shoot
at me at 50 yds." He told him, politely, that from what he had seen at the IPSC matches,he
wouldn't be standing there very long.

One of my standard quips is now - "Well, you wouldn't want to stand out there." when talking
about how the shooting was going at a particular day or time.

Bill

[Dale53]

MtGun44;
When Ohio opened deer hunting to handguns, I was ready as I had been SERIOUSLY practicing with my .44 Magnums from field conditions. I was 100% certain to my pre-determined distance (125 yards was my self imposed limit for "all conditions" deer hunting). Actual hunting in the field showed this to be a realistic limit for me. I could hit a deer further, but I didn't just want to hit him, but truly harvest him in the best condition possible, with minimum fuss. HItting a deer and losing it is unacceptable.

Some of my most satisfying takes, however, were the ones I got close to (really close, as in 10 yards). I have stalked deer with in good shooting position with me hearing them before they heard me (or seen them before they saw me). 44Man has told many how to get close and i am a believer because I have done it. I would practice stalking wild animals of all sizes out of season when hiking or back packing. It is amazing how close you can get. Then, when hunting season rolls around, you are READY also.

FWIW
Dale53

[FergusonTO35]

Every snubbie I've ever owned has been more than accurate enough at close to medium range. My Charter Police Undercover with 2.2 inch barrel will keep up with my 4" S&W 10-5 on a good day. A Charter Undercover purchased as a parts gun that I brought back to life would consistently do 3" groups at 10 yards. The Ruger SP-101 I used to have would do the same in spite of its horrendous trigger pull.

[hardy]

Most every handgun I,ve owned has far more rounds expended at over 25 yards than closer in.Not saying I hit much but with a "new" toy it,ll tell you right off the bat where it puts them.And .as others have noted,working out the holdover(and follow thru) can give surprising results.Personally I find it great fun,and great practice.Mike

[Chicken Thief]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tied-t1fFsk&feature=related

[fcvan]

Many years ago after reding an reticle about Elmer Keith shooting drums at 500 yards, I he to try it. Several friends and I took turns and finally begn hitting a similar sized target with my 8 3/8" S&W M57 41 mag. On a lrk, I tried with my Taurus M85 because Massad Ayoob said snubbies cn make long shots. Well, I held the gun up, pulled the trigger, and watched the dirt skip up way short of the target. I eventually hit the target but only after figuring out the amount of hold over necessary for a 125gr RN boolit loded at about 900fps - from a 4" and no telling from the 2" snubby. Yup, I hit it but it was more like firing an artillery piece as I was holding it at least 15 degrees up to make the shot. Good times. Frank

[David2011]

In general I interpret the writers that claim this to mean that they can't do it.

Yep, seems any time shooting is discussed might happen. I was at a College of Optometry years ago discussing the weekend's shooting and told my friend and his manager that I had made a single ragged hole with 18 rounds at 50 feet, offhand at an indoor range. The manager said I couldn't have possibly done it. I pointed at a doorknob about 15 yards away and said it would be like hitting the knob with every round. He declared again that I couldn't have. I told him that maybe it was because I seem to have sharper vision than most. I was able to find sailboat racing marks a mile or two before anyone else on the boat could see them on a regular basis. He took me to a miniature eye chart, the kind designed to be used at 10 feet instead of 20. I backed way off. He was pretty aggravated that I was able to read the 10/10 line at 38 feet. After I did he declared that I couldn't have. I had to be cheating somehow- with bare eyeballs.

That was 30 years ago. I probably can't do either any more myself.

If the doubter can't, then obviously no one else should be able to either.

Go figger. . .
David

[MtGun44]

Like I said, lots of folks absolutely think that if THEY can't do it, it is impossible. Pretty
dumb view of the world. I sure has heck know that there is a lot of stuff I cannot do
that others CAN. I'm pretty darned good at mechanical and "target games" but I sure
am no good a musical stuff - bad ears and just can't get it. Different people have
different skills hardwired in.

Dale - I've slipped up on moose and deer when hiking and it seems a lot easier than
when I am hunting. A few years ago I was hunting mulies in Wyo and slipped up on
several moose and a few does, but never got a shot on a buck. I sure could have
taken a really nice bull moose, he wandered around in front of me for 1/2 hour and
I slipped up on several in their beds - just no moose tag!

Working hard to get close is a real challenge, and fun, too.

Bill

[376Steyr]

I have no witnesses, so believe this or not. Years ago I was out shooting ground squirrels when I ran out of .223 ammo. Having some daylight left, I rummaged around in the truck and pulled out a S&W 649 and some .38 plinking ammo. The squirrels were numerous that year, and I plugged a couple at 10 to 15 yards. Then I saw one stand up on his burrow a long way out. Holding up some front sight, I saw dirt fly and the squirrel disappear as I missed the first shot. A minute later, the squirrel popped back up again. I took aim again, fired, and to my surprise saw him flip into the air. I walked over to check my results. It took 67 long paces over flat ground (say a little over 50 yards) to reach him. When I rolled him over with the toe of my boot, I saw that I had hit him right between the eyes.

[fourarmed]

The main problem with snubs is that they often don't shoot to the sights, and of course the sights are often poor. The old Colt detective specials had nice sights, as do the recent 642 Smith types. If you find a load that shoots to the sights, you can do a lot with it. I have a third model detective special with which I have shot 19x40 (in a match) on the IHMSA field pistol course. I have shot worse scores with it, too. Luck is always a factor.

[km101]

I have a Mod. 60 that will put 5 shots off-hand into an 8" circle at 25 yds. consistently. And I'm sure that most of the current production guns will also. With most snubbies the short sight radius is the limiting factor. Almost all handguns are mechanically more accurate than the shooter that fires them. It's the samje with snubbies. If you can do it, the gun will!!