Who knows how to make box magazines from scratch?

[MBTcustom]

Sheet metal is my Achilles heel. Some of the best sheet metal work I have ever seen is the box magazines that are in most of our guns.
You know, every factory must have some yay-who master of the sheetmetal that builds the prototypes from scratch.
That guy would be a really interesting feller to talk to.
Don't tell me they just draw them up in solidworks and send the drawings to the shop to build the dies to make them, and just start chunking them out. If you have ever worked in manufacturing, you know that just doesn't happen. The engineers take their best guess, and end up being told how to change the drawings by the guy on the floor who knows how to make the stuff. :mrgreen:
Is this taught in any school?
It just kills me that I can make every other piece of a firearm, except the magazine. Not that I'm going to go into business making AK mags or anything, but there are many instances where it would make all kinds of sense to be able to make things like that from scratch.
Like a customer comes in (as has happened twice now) who wants a magazine for their vintage cheapo something or other. One of them I managed to find in an obscure place on the internet (don't remember where) and the other I'm still looking for, (Lorcin 25). In both cases, I told them that they should just scrap the pistol and get another one for $150, but people are funny. They say, just fix it, I don't care how much it costs! And cousin, let me tell you, they really don't care how much it costs!

Now, I didn't start this thread because I need a magazine for a Lorcin pistol, (I believe I have found one)

I just want to know who has this knowledge, and what their phone number is. Better yet, is there a book about 2" thick that covers all the intricacies of how to make sheet metal magazines?

I'm thinking about using the hulk smash method. Just grab some sheetmetal and start bending and welding and recreate the magazines in the guns that I already own, using the originals as guides.

What do you think?

[Dan Cash]

Tim,
I think the manufacture of detachable sheet metal box magazines is something of an arcane art right along with alchemy. That was one of the big reasons holding down the production of reliable auto loading firearms. You will recall that Mauser, Manlicher and a couple other early auto pistols did not use detachable mags and the magazines for early machineguns were awful contraptions. Without drawing machinery, one might hand form separate halves of a magazine and braze them together as with the Lee Enfield mags.

[375RUGER]

My local sheetmetal shop just went out of business in July. Those guys could have done it. I have no doubt- they did some incredible work for me, and you know the business I'm in.

The GM lives not far from me and helps when I need it. The machines from that shop are still in town but the prices from the new shop are 4X.

I know another shop here that has a, 150ton draw press (i'm guessing becasue I don't remember). They could draw one piece boxes. They could press 2 piece-ers also then could be spot welded.

Right now they are doing a run of some part that goes on the front axle of a 1935 Harley.

Onsies wouldn't be worth it from either place. 100+ would though.

I think with some thought you could wallow out a die, and put it in a 40ton press and I have no doubt you would be able to make something quite usable.

I'll ask my friend if knows a good book to read on sheet metal work.

[MBTcustom]

Thing is, if you are talking about AR mags, then yeah you need that kind of machinery. However, I was thinking more along the lines of the simple 1911 style mags which are folded, welded, sheet metal, or the SMLE style mags which are brazed etc etc. If someone wants me to make a one off magazine for a gun that magazines are hard to get for, I wonder if I could make it work. Also, there is the whole custom side of things where you want to have a detachable box magazine for the 700*** or some other type wildcat. I want to be the guy that can make such a critter, and I really believe I can get there with a little bit of training in sheet metal work.
The problem is that most books on sheet metal fab are dealing with air ducts and other such big obnoxious products.
I totally understand that I may have to teach myself how to rope this tornado. I just figured its worth asking if somebody else might have information.
After all, the factories had to have prototypes! You're not going to build a $20,000 set of dies for a design that might work.

[I'll Make Mine]

Magazines for pistols are fairly simple; I've seen photo sets of amateurs making them for 1911s and smaller semi-autos. The spring is wound onto a form from suitable music wire, follower and floor plate can be milled from solid (for a one-off -- it'll cost you one round of capacity for a single-stack); the biggest trick is getting the front to back dimension exactly right, second biggest getting the lips bent just so and trimmed to the correct profile.

Actually, for something along the lines of the Lorcin .25, you could lift the follower, spring, and possibly floor plate from a magazine made for another .25 with the same grip angle (for Lorcin, I'd check Raven and Tanfoglio magazines, both readily available as parts), and if the donor mag is longer than the Lorcin, you could shorten the bottom end of the body and the spring et voila. Heck, with the bottom latches common in those tiny pistols, the whole magazine might change over, with at most a little alteration of the lips.

[Artful]

OK, I don't do anything like this.. but have accumulated some knowledge over the years.
Things like the Colt 9mm semi auto carbine magazine is a modified UZI magazine which is a modified Beretta MP-38 magazine. The Sig-Sauer P6/225 magazine is based off the Walther P-38 magazine etc. Original Ruger standard model 22 pistol magazine was based on High Standard pistol magazine. Taurus PT-99 and M-9 Beretta mag's just need adjustment of catch hole to interchange.

Evidently lots of gun makers build their weapons around an existing magazine because the difficulty in making magazines. Somewhere back in time when I devoured gunsmithing books, in my reading I remember going thru a book about making prototype pistols including the magazines. Which steels to choose and why, and heat treatment there of.

I remember illustrations about setting a vise a little wider than a drill bit blank and forcing sheet metal thru the vice to form the front of the magazine (if I remember right he had already put the 90 degree bends for the back in place) then brazing the back together.
And using smooth round jaw pliers to form the lips then heat treating them. Even making the springs for magazine's, firing pins, etc.

The information you seek is out there in book form from the photo's I remember I'd say from the 1930's to 1960's as a print date. If I remember any more I'll post it on here.

[Artful]

Did some quick googlage trying to jog my memory - wonder if any of these will help ya on the road.
http://www.gunknowledge.com/Documents/Home%20Workshop%20Guns/Home_Workshop_Guns_Vol_1_The_Submachine_Gun.pdf

Chapter 9 about making magazines.

I know this isn't it but may be you can research and see if it will help ya
http://www.paladin-press.com/product/Home_Workshop_Prototype_Firearms/Home_Workshop_Guns_and_Ammo

It may be this one
http://www.paperbackswap.com/Gunsmithing-R-R-Dunlap/book/0811707709/

[heathydee]

I converted a Brno Fox 22 Hornet to 30 Carbine a few years ago and had to make new magazines . I bent sheet steel around a simple mandrel before oxy-acetylene welding the seam . I made two . They hold six rounds and work well despite looking a bit rough .
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/316505f7ba5c6e2a.jpg
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/316505f7ba5e69f5.jpg

The boolit shown is the CBE 150 grn .

[MBTcustom]

Thats some darn good work!
Thanks for the book info artful! That's the stuff I'm after for sure.
Sometimes I wonder if all of this is just a storm in a teacup. I have been stumped a couple times by old guns that I can't get springs for. I have gone to extreme lengths to find springs of just the right tension to get a firearm to work correctly.
A while ago, I was coming up dry and I needed a special spring made of .042 wire with a hook one one end, three coils, and then a 1" leg with a 1/4" 90 degree bend. I was talking to my father about my woes on the way to my day job, and he asked me why I didn't just make the stupid spring myself?
Well, I went home and straitened out a spring with .042 wire in it, bent it the way I needed, and re-heat-treated it, and tempered it. It worked like a charm.
Today, I had a customer who wanted a lighter spring on the firing pin of his SMLE, so I made one using the same technique. Works every time.
The point is, making springs is something that I dreaded for years, but it turns out that its not that hard to do at all, which makes me wonder about this whole magazine issue. Maybe I should just start bending sheet metal and make it happen.

[imashooter2]

Straight magazines are pretty simple things. Curved magazines you need to either have a forming press or cut a big pile of pie wedges and weld them together...

[Mk42gunner]

There are a few books on homemade guns by a guy named Bill Holmes?? I wasn't that impressed by either his designs or his attitude; but the way he described making magazines would work. I will see if I can find the book, to get the correct title.

Robert

[MBTcustom]

Robert, Bill Holms' book is the link that Artful posted above. Very interesting reading.

[justashooter]

easiest method involves making an inside form and stretching the sheet around it to a weld joint. not hard with some bar stock and a bandsaw. mig welding is good.

[Plinkster]

Get it figured out Goodsteel and I may just farm out my little project lol.

[MBTcustom]

Get it figured out Goodsteel and I may just farm out my little project lol.
Tell you the truth, your other thread is part of why I'm asking. It's all part of the same watermelon. That, and several jobs that have come through the shop this year.
For so many years, I have seen the easiest solution to a jamming gun is a new magazine. Spring pressure, follower angle, feedlip condition and design, all have to play together nicely in order to give reliable feeding. However, as has been pointed out, it may be a bolt gun that needs a magazine built, which is much less picky.
I am thinking about Artful's first post where you mention how many designs spring from others. That probably makes more sense than building a new one from scratch, but I have never seen a comprehensive list of what is made from what.
I believe I will start keeping a magazine journal with all the critical dimensions of every magazine that comes through the shop. Might save me a minute or two in the future.

[heathydee]

I have an ongoing project - a scratch built pump action rifle . The rifle is chambered for a .308 case with the shoulder pushed back to provide a longer neck to better suit cast boolits . The magazine was built first and the action built around it which simplifies things . Mild steel eighty thousandths thick was used and that provides sufficient strength for the magazine to withstand rough handling . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSYxZu5CiJs&list=UUdza0w1OiFq1ByUehsRXzdA&index=7&feature=plcp
A factory made magazine is a work of art . High strength steels and pressed in strengthening creases allow the product to be light and robust . Copying one would be a real PIA without proper tooling and access to thin gauge tensile steels .

[wv109323]

There could be a market for some odd magazines for rifles. Two that I have are the Model 37 Remington Target .22RF. That magazine is a machined magazine. The going price for a spare Remington 37 magazine is around $150.00.
Another Rifle I have that it is impractical to buy a magazine for is an early Browning Lever Rifle. I saw one go for $240.00 on Fleabay.
If you could make those there would be a limited market but one that could be profitable.

[Artful]

I am thinking about Artful's first post where you mention how many designs spring from others. That probably makes more sense than building a new one from scratch, but I have never seen a comprehensive list of what is made from what.
I believe I will start keeping a magazine journal with all the critical dimensions of every magazine that comes through the shop. Might save me a minute or two in the future.

Good Idea, quick googlage did find some places to start with...

http://www.hoosiergunworks.com/catalog/cross_reference.html

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/CrossReference.aspx

http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f21/marlin-cross-reference-guide-31183/

http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.sears-103-2.html

[Mk42gunner]

Robert, Bill Holms' book is the link that Artful posted above. Very interesting reading.

Tim,

I usually don't click on links before replying; my connection speed is so slow, it makes a sundial look fast.

Robert

[izzyjoe]

Tim, sounds like you need to get some sheet metal and beat the hell out of it! just watch out for those fingers. i'd start out with some thin gauge stuff to start with. i got faith in you can do it! :)

[KCSO]

Goodsteel, I have made ONE from scratch and I have cut down and modified several with the help of a friend. My friend had a whole tinsmiths set from the 1880's. Anvils, bending jigs forming dies ect. I have been trying to buy this outfit from him for over 10 years now as it makes this tough job almost easy. The only thing we needed to make were a couple of lip forming dies.

[MBTcustom]

Cool! If you get a chance to take a picture, that would be even better!
I love old tools. Back when men worked with their hands, their handtools were much more.......handy, ya know?

[KCSO]

This would take a number of pictures as there are two different anvils, maybe 15 different forming blocks a number of different bending jigs. The next time I am over there I will start on the pictures unless i can ply him with drinks and bring it all home with me.

[munchkinsmisfit]

Tim, sounds like you need to get some sheet metal and beat the hell out of it! just watch out for those fingers. i'd start out with some thin gauge stuff to start width. i got faith in you can do it! :)
As a professional tinner ( one who makes air duct and installs it) I suggest 22ga sheet metal. My current idiot project is to make a detachable mag for my m44 mosin. Yeah yeah I've heard all the complaints. I started with light gauge but the standard of sheet metal is slot of guess work. Some times it stretches and other times it warps. Start with a 2 piece 5 sided box (braze able). After several failed attempts, I moved up to 22ga and after two tries I got it. The follower is a modified spring from a 91/30. Now I'm working on the eject switch.
Now keep in mind I have 24/7 access to a full tin shop and the scraps pile. Like Tim said. Get a hammer. And get ready to get nicked a time or to, but I'm positive you can do it. Look up a local hvac shop if your need arises.

[Frank46]

Check out you tube, I seem to remember there being a video shot in some eastern european country and it did go into detail how the ak mags were made. Or try google as you never know what pops up. Frank

[bstone5]

I made several for Rem 788, I shot a 308 in High Power matches and needed a magazine with a five round capacity.

It took several tries to figure out.

For welding I used a Brass backing plate and TIG welded.

I used two right angle plates to make the box.

The hardest part was making the lips at the top of the magazine.

[coleman]

http://www.amazon.com/Tool-Design-Cyril-Donaldson/dp/0070175314/ref=sr_1_3/189-9267803-0320159?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1413445896&sr=1-3&keywords=tool+design

Here is a book, it has a few chapters on sheet metal tooling and design, how much tonnage it takes, how to figure blank length and a lot of other good info, for the cost of the book it will be worth it for you to help understand more about sheetmetal work.

[Possumcop]

Sheet metal is my Achilles heel. Some of the best sheet metal work I have ever seen is the box magazines that are in most of our guns.
You know, every factory must have some yay-who master of the sheetmetal that builds the prototypes from scratch.
That guy would be a really interesting feller to talk to.
Don't tell me they just draw them up in solidworks and send the drawings to the shop to build the dies to make them, and just start chunking them out. If you have ever worked in manufacturing, you know that just doesn't happen. The engineers take their best guess, and end up being told how to change the drawings by the guy on the floor who knows how to make the stuff. :mrgreen:
Is this taught in any school?
It just kills me that I can make every other piece of a firearm, except the magazine. Not that I'm going to go into business making AK mags or anything, but there are many instances where it would make all kinds of sense to be able to make things like that from scratch.
Like a customer comes in (as has happened twice now) who wants a magazine for their vintage cheapo something or other. One of them I managed to find in an obscure place on the internet (don't remember where) and the other I'm still looking for, (Lorcin 25). In both cases, I told them that they should just scrap the pistol and get another one for $150, but people are funny. They say, just fix it, I don't care how much it costs! And cousin, let me tell you, they really don't care how much it costs!

Now, I didn't start this thread because I need a magazine for a Lorcin pistol, (I believe I have found one)

I just want to know who has this knowledge, and what their phone number is. Better yet, is there a book about 2" thick that covers all the intricacies of how to make sheet metal magazines?

I'm thinking about using the hulk smash method. Just grab some sheetmetal and start bending and welding and recreate the magazines in the guns that I already own, using the originals as guides.

What do you think?


1- Fly to Pakistan.
2- Take a bus up to the Khyber Pass.
3- Ask for Achmed the mag maker.

You're SET! :mrgreen::mrgreen:

[MBTcustom]

1- Fly to Pakistan.
2- Take a bus up to the Khyber Pass.
3- Ask for Achmed the mag maker.

You're SET! :mrgreen::mrgreen:

No wonder I can't buy anything "made in the USA" anymore.

[TCLouis]

Funny that this should come up, i have been contemplating how to make a decent follower the actuall stays uin the magazine for my Rem 788 in 222.

The pitiful excuse for a follower typically come out after the last round is fired.

A coworker has developed a coyote problem so I am going to need a repeater or I will have to get things set up in an AR. Going for very frangible bullets as it is not that far to other houses.

Any suggestions there would be appreciated by e-mail or PM.

[Cap'n Morgan]

As long as there's not any deep draw process involved, sheet metal design is quite straightforward. Calculating the flattened profile is simple math based on plate thickness and the bending radius. Bending and folding can be accomplished with simple tooling made from scrap bits and pieces welded together. A hydraulic press is nice to have, but a large vise will do in a pinch - so to speak.
For one-off jobs it might seem like overkill, but it's actually much easier to get a good result using fixtures and dedicated tooling.

Here's a link that covers some of the basic tricks in sheet metal design:
http://www.qualitytool.com/resources/Design-Handbook-Rev3.pdf

For larger runs I would bribe someone with access to a laser or waterjet cutter to cut the flattened profile. If you can provided them with a good drawing or even better a DXF file, it's a matter of minutes to cut a bunch of plates.

[greywuuf]

Hmm, I have a few of tangent but possibly related idea's ......one is a shot bag, I have seen one old guy take a wooden mallet a shot bag and a piece of sheet metal and form two nearly mirror image tank halves (motorcycle style) almost in less time than it takes to type this.....now that is dishing and stretching and may not be exactly relevant....but he definately understood how metal moved.....

Second is...you can blow flat plates up like a baloon with a process called hydro forming....again might only be useful if you made up a die first but it has got me making some interesting two stroke exhaust with a lot less welding little cones together..

[PB234]

This appears to be a perfect project for 3D printing depending on if one can find a service center that will produce the magazines for you one on a one off basis. If one had a library of dimensions and the ability to transform the dimensions to software a magazine could be run off or any small number of magazines. They could be perfect.

I have only seen the junky consumer 3D printers, but there are printers printing in metal and used by commercial enterprises. Look for somewhere that will act like a walk in copy center. Email the software and have them print and ship the mag to you.

Considering the hard to get magazines, having a library of plans on software could be a nice business.

There is also a gentleman in Europe who makes magazines for the 22 Steyr Zephyr a few at a time. Workmanship is beautiful. His name might be Phillip Sparholt (or close). If you want I can try to dig it out for you. He is a hobbyist and Mannlicher enthusiast. The magazines are the equal to the originals.

A library of dimensions to use for 3D printing is the product for the future. Library + place to run a part off of a expensive machine is the business both for the owner of the software and the folks who rent out time on the machine. I vaguely recall there are already firms doing this now.

[gunshot98]

I learned from dad how to lighten spring tension by polishing it on my buffer. I think we are always learning something new because of the problems we face. Mag making would be challenging for me to learn, but would like to try. Good luck Tim. Keep us posted

[sten668]

I have been working on a 788 mag follower for a 300 whisper I built. I think it will reduce the capacity by one. Then I will work on lengthening the mag so it will hold 8-10 rounds.

[freebullet]

I've modified a bunch of mags & drums. Never needed to make from scratch. A straight box mag shouldn't be out of line.

My next mag project is to mate 2 p238 mags together. They were promags that never worked. I plan on turning them into 1 10-12 rnd mag simply for the fun of it & because none exist that I'm aware of.

Another website you might get info from is the weapons guild. Please do let us see pics of your first scratch build attempts, either way they go lol.

[Artful]

Injection molding - hmmm - how about 3 D printing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltnIaABPG2I

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I have silver soldered a Mauser-style magazine, blind floorplate and trigger guard unit in bronze, for a P14 Enfield converted to .300H&H, and it worked, but as has been suggested, a centrefire rifle, with the lips built into the receiver rails, is the easy end of the magazine business.

A straight clip magazine for a pistol or .22 shouldn't be too difficult if you start from an internal steel former with its top curved to match the curvature of the cartridge. In many cases the front is rounded, and only the rear will require a 90 degree angle. That would allow you to have the join held together firmly for silver soldering (which would be my preferred method of assembly.) If length of magazine well isn't too tight, you could use a cartridge-width strip soldered between those two sides of the magazine.

Of course if a firearm is malfunctioning because of the magazine, it is almost certain to be either the lips or the spring. It takes a long, long time for brass to wear steel, so the same kind of former could still be used to tap slightly bent lips out of shape.

I think you could have problems bending music wire sufficiently accurately, if it is thick enough to reliably raise the column of cartridges in the brief time available. It might be as well to make the spring with annealed wire, then harden and temper it. A small kiln would be best for hardening, and tempering all of its length without softening it too much will be difficult. I would be inclined to do it in a bath of hot lead-tin solder or melted mineral salts. You can now buy cheap Chinese non-contact infra-red thermometers which will tell you the temperature of the tempering bath.

One of these days eBay will turn up a spare magazine for my Brno .22 with the arsenal stamp for 1968. At $57 from Numrich I am not quite one of those people who don't care about the cost, at least when with current production you get a mere plastic floorplate.

[joesig]

The point is, making springs is something that I dreaded for years, but it turns out that its not that hard to do at all, which makes me wonder about this whole magazine issue. Maybe I should just start bending sheet metal and make it happen.

Exactly. I felt the same way about automatic transmissions. Let me tell ya sheetmetal is cheaper than clutches! I did it. You can too. It may sound funny but there are plenty of good bodywork videos out there too if you are a visual person. There's one who made an aluminum body. No bondo, just a hammer, sandbag, dolly and file.

I'm not a sheetmetal guy either. In other words, I just haven't practiced enough.

[country gent]

One trick is to first form the body from poster paper The heavier stuff that kids use for projects. Its easy to lay out and cut with a pencil scissors and bend work with. Get the shape right and form the lips on top so they look right. This can be glued to shape with rubber cement. Then mark and cut bottom to shape required for base plate either weld on or slip in. Once this is done you can peel the rubber cement glued joint or cut it center if you want a butt welded joint. You now have the form to use to lay out the sheet metal and get it close. Or if only one is wanted it can be glued right to the sheet metal to cut out. Working in paper card board first shows everything and what order to do things easier and cheaper that the sheet metal. Also if making a solid bottom mag you need holes to assemble it. Push spring down insert a pin thru and drop follower on top hold and release. Making magazines can be a real trial and tribulation at times.

[Jack In the Box]

Man, This threads old I see, can't believe I have never found this place till now. Haven't got my answer yet but I got some good info.

I have tried a few times at this Bending thing, It always starts off Big guns and then I manage to mess it up so bad I don't even want to look in the shop again because I wasted so much time, I do get over it and try again however.

After Reading through all this, I have started thinking maybe my idea I have been having might be my only option. That Idea is going to produce several mess ups I am sure. it's a milling Idea, no bends, no seams, just painstakingly digging out of a block of stock till I get the insides correct in the form of the magazine I'm trying to imitate, leaving the bottom open and enough stock at the top to form the correct shape at the top. Yeah, I know this seems like a "Too Much BS to deal with type thing" but i am like one of your people that says " i don't care how much it costs" except for the fact that I don't have that kind of change.
The real thing that would make ya'll laugh at me is this project is for a .22 wmr. :O) it's a semi auto rifle that i wanted since I was a kid, I have it. it's a beauty, but magazines are ( You know I would like to say hard to find here) Impossible to find. for me anyway.

It's an Italian import, Mitchell arms, Jager AP80 AK22m. wmr .22 super cool to me and everyone that sees it and wanted by every single person I have ever even let hold it. But I only have one magazine. It would be really cool to have more, so cool I can't stop thinking about it.

I am thinking I might be able to mill this out of aluminum, and maybe just make a top piece of sheet metal to fit into the rifle so that the bottom aluminum 'Milled" can attach. I thought of the top part because I believe the aluminum would be too soft and wear out quickly.

I thought I had a great chance at getting clips when I read a report from Canada that all the AP80's were taken from the citizens in the entire country up there. But turns out that the .22 wmr ap80 is kind of rare even when it was imported. GRR.

I was looking forward to reading that page 9 on the gun knowledge link that was posted but that links dead. bummer for me. I have tried to find something close that I can modify as well, no luck so far. Been 7 years, yup, 7 years - gun shows toting this thing around, online every other night practically, I mean, i am serious, I have been searching pro style everywhere I can. short of buying a 700.00 other gun, I have seen no answers. if anyone knows where a clip for this is, Im all ears. LOL there are a few other model by the same company that are close enough probably, haven't found one though. Looks like this. http://www.hoosiergunworks.com/images/mitchell_ak22_22mag.jpg

[Jack In the Box]

Another Idea i had I call Clam shell. where I would make two halves and then spot them together.

[wonderwolf]

There used to be a forum about 12 years ago that had a post from a guy who was a professional at sheet metal work. He made the dies to make his own mags for his pump action hunting rifle of which only came with 1 mag and replacements were $100+ irrc. His dies looked phanominal and I've always thought about his work when I look at building something like a 5 round magazine for a 50BMG where mags are $100 each or mags for something like these AXIS rifles where the current offerings leave a lot to be desired. Sheet metal work isn't something I need to get into as I have more projects than I need currently. But understanding how the dies are made etc could allow me to design the stuff and hand it over to somebody I do know who is good at sheet metal work and turn out some stampings that just need assembled. The library is your friend...I currently have metal casting books out as I'm interested in Aluminum casting...I know our library has at least 10 old school books on sheet metal work.

Somebody who could find a way to make the forms easily could make a good living and keep busy making steel magazines.

[Grey-Wolf]

v
Sheet metal is my Achilles heel. Some of the best sheet metal work I have ever seen is the box magazines that are in most of our guns.
You know, every factory must have some yay-who master of the sheetmetal that builds the prototypes from scratch.
That guy would be a really interesting feller to talk to.
Don't tell me they just draw them up in solidworks and send the drawings to the shop to build the dies to make them, and just start chunking them out. If you have ever worked in manufacturing, you know that just doesn't happen. The engineers take their best guess, and end up being told how to change the drawings by the guy on the floor who knows how to make the stuff. :mrgreen:
Is this taught in any school?
It just kills me that I can make every other piece of a firearm, except the magazine. Not that I'm going to go into business making AK mags or anything, but there are many instances where it would make all kinds of sense to be able to make things like that from scratch.
Like a customer comes in (as has happened twice now) who wants a magazine for their vintage cheapo something or other. One of them I managed to find in an obscure place on the internet (don't remember where) and the other I'm still looking for, (Lorcin 25). In both cases, I told them that they should just scrap the pistol and get another one for $150, but people are funny. They say, just fix it, I don't care how much it costs! And cousin, let me tell you, they really don't care how much it costs!

Now, I didn't start this thread because I need a magazine for a Lorcin pistol, (I believe I have found one)

I just want to know who has this knowledge, and what their phone number is. Better yet, is there a book about 2" thick that covers all the intricacies of how to make sheet metal magazines?

I'm thinking about using the hulk smash method. Just grab some sheetmetal and start bending and welding and recreate the magazines in the guns that I already own, using the originals as guides.

What do you think?

I be the one u were seeking in 2012 ...best way is to have a small forge to bend the metal slowly a coal forge made from a double sink.stainless steel only...and somw old bed rails is what i use and i have also made curved ones from sheet metal..so yes its able to be done but i warn easy if you have the old one even if its damaged

[Hannibal]

I believe most magazines built were either stamped steel, spot welded up, or draw formed. How can draw forming be duplicated with a forge?

Not saying it can't be done. I'm just not familiar with the process. Please school me/us?

[BigEyeBob]

Thats some darn good work!
Thanks for the book info artful! That's the stuff I'm after for sure.
Sometimes I wonder if all of this is just a storm in a teacup. I have been stumped a couple times by old guns that I can't get springs for. I have gone to extreme lengths to find springs of just the right tension to get a firearm to work correctly.
A while ago, I was coming up dry and I needed a special spring made of .042 wire with a hook one one end, three coils, and then a 1" leg with a 1/4" 90 degree bend. I was talking to my father about my woes on the way to my day job, and he asked me why I didn't just make the stupid spring myself?
Well, I went home and straitened out a spring with .042 wire in it, bent it the way I needed, and re-heat-treated it, and tempered it. It worked like a charm.
Today, I had a customer who wanted a lighter spring on the firing pin of his SMLE, so I made one using the same technique. Works every time.
The point is, making springs is something that I dreaded for years, but it turns out that its not that hard to do at all, which makes me wonder about this whole magazine issue. Maybe I should just start bending sheet metal and make it happen.

Sheet metal is very fickle to work with , too much heat and it will buckle , too much bending or stretching and it will crack or buckle .
I don't recall the Enfield magazines being brazed , I reckon the sides and ends were folded from one stamping which also put the flutes in the sides , the bottom plate IMHO would have been resistance welded in .I'm referring to the SMLE Mk's 1,11,111 and No4 not any other Enfield variant .
I have a few Enfield mags and I can't see evidence of any brazing at all , any brass joint would not parkerise and would stand out like Bullets' (Roy Rodgers' dog) ball bag . Just my take on it .

Check out the Argus Workshop Practice series of books , mainly printed for Model Engineers lots of good information they even have a book on spring design and how to make them .
Can be downloaded from here in PDF http://www.freebookspot.es/
Look in the DIY category


List of titles of the series is here www.bevenyoung.com.au/argus.pdf ,they are available from this site as well .
Please note I have no connection with the book vendor at all .
The books also appear on Ebay from time to time .

Cheers
Kev.

[NavyVet1959]

To me at least, trying to make a magazine for a firearm that you do not already have a sample magazine to pattern it after would seem to be rather difficult. What do you do? Cast a mold of the magazine cavity in the firearm an then try to decide what part of that is useful or not?

[aephilli822]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8rkllZFxx4

thread necromancy.... beh......

[BigEyeBob]

Just finished modifying a Lee Enfield 10 shot mag to hold five rounds of 375 x2 1/2" FNE , took two days of careful work ,so the box wasnt damaged ,had to unsweat the bottom ,cut the mag box to the correct shape , make a new bottom plate and tig weld it in . Then rust blue it to finish it off .

[aephilli822]

Nice work, Bob

I was looking at this thread because I have some work to do on a blind box Savage, doesn't have to look pretty, just feed.

[M-Tecs]

Nice work. What is a 375 x2 1/2" FNE? I am guessing it's a 303 opened to 375 but I couldn't find any info on the web.

[NavyVet1959]

Nice work. What is a 375 x2 1/2" FNE? I am guessing it's a 303 opened to 375 but I couldn't find any info on the web.

http://www.lee-enfieldrifles.com/nitro.html

[Dan Cash]

.375 Flanged Nitor Express. A very fine cartridge to 300. 270 grain bullet at 2000-2100 muzzle.

[LAGS]

I have made around a dozen magazines for rifles and pistols over the past 20 years.
It is a Chore.
But can be done
In fact I am still trying to finish a 15 or 20 rounder for my buddy Armoredman, for his CZ 527 Carbine.
I already made him up a 10 rounder, and now have an idea of the Quirks in increasing the capacity.
And NO, I know nothing about Sheet Netal Work.
I am self taught, and dont have some fancy shop with all the Gadgets.
But they do call me MacGyver at times.

[ulav8r]

I was looking forward to reading that page 9 on the gun knowledge link that was posted but that links dead. bummer for me. I

https://cdn.preterhuman.net/texts/wars_and_weapons/guns/Homeworkshop%20Firearms%20Vol1%20-%20The%20Submachine%20Gun.pdf

[BigEyeBob]

Just finished modifying a Lee Enfield 10 shot mag to hold five rounds of 375 x2 1/2" FNE , took two days of careful work ,so the box wasnt damaged ,had to unsweat the bottom ,cut the mag box to the correct shape , make a new bottom plate and tig weld it in . Then rust blue it to finish it off .

Finished product magazine blued and filled with 375 x 2 1/2" cartridges , final adjustments will be made one I get the barrel and action chambered and assembled.Takes four comfortably in the mag and one up the tube .Thought Id throw in the trigger guard as well for good measure.Trigger guard loop has been thinned and lightened and narrowed to make it a bit more elegant than the chunky looking Lee Enfield standard issue ,polished to a high chrome finish and blued .
Make my cases from 405 win brass , machine .020" of the rim diameter trim and push them through the CHH4D 375 dies .

[Labrador_Ronin]

Sorry to necro This Thread I've been tinkering with the idea of making a magazine for the Springfield M1A or the norinco m305 like we have in Canada and I have a damaged magazine that I drilled the spot welds out of my to make a pattern from it but I'm wondering how do I get the back to take such a sharp edge I need a mandrel or hammerform for that wouldn't I? I'm think about setting up my little brake drum Forge as well for heating and hammering it around.
I'm thinking about 20 or 19 gauge steel that I can Harden and the follower I like the long followers that the Chinese magazines have, any tips ?

[shootrj2003]

A good blacksmith maybe could,the first ones were done that way,there are people who could ,some of them used to work for the Viet Cong ask guys who fought them and found their handi work some crude some really good even whole browning and Colt copies,and now in Afghanistan,it is amazing what you can make by hand if you need to or want to.i was proud of a 3 shot mag for my Marlin60/70 I just shortened that and aK and AR mags have those little grooves to fit the action,but somebody can somewhere.

[Shopdog]

One of our "sanders".....we call them grinders is a 1910 American.It is a combo,16" drum and an 18" disc.So,tripping on back to that time period....generally,the gauge metal would be folded over a mandrel after the pce had the two back corners "broke" at a 90.Then gas welded up the center of the back.Which even today,with Tig available, I could gas weld it pretty dang efficiently. But anyway,after it's welded it gets run across a big disc sander/grinder to not only knock down the weld,it also squares and "sharpens" those back corners.With magazine in hand,I'd say maybe 5-10 seconds on the disc would see it done.

[Shopdog]

Look up a Denbigh (UK) "flypress".Helped unload a 600#+ ,number 6 this a.m.

So going along with my post above,back in the day equipment......a flypress would be most likely used.This one is 1920-30'ish.

[cavhasbeen]

Thanks for furthering my education Mr. Shopdog! I've been in a number of blacksmith shops in my life including one that had worked thirty men in its prime, and never even heard of a flypress. Interesting tool to say the least.

[Shopdog]

cavhasbeen,once adjusted/tuned..... they are stupid fast.We use hydraulic "H" frame presses here,and will continue.Flypresses when doing lower tonnage work,like forming gauge metal will leave an H frame for dead on speed.They also "bump" better.

There's a 1970'ish video on U tube.Its a factory Remington tour.About halfway through they're using one on a shotgun brrl or ?You'll know it when you see it...... watch not only "what" the guy is working on but,the speed and bumping finesse. Also how dang fast it is.

Edit to add;The video is Remington arms,"one at a time",1969

[Clark]

In 2006 and 2007 Century was selling Beretta 92s pistols for $240 with a magazine and later without.
I modified 92F magazines to fit. High speed steel would not cut the mags, I had to use carbide.
218072

I don't know WHY the mags are hardened, but I could offer guesses; stiff upper lip, lighter weight, corrosion proof, just because.

[Harter66]

Tim
I see a brake and slip roll in your future .
The slip roll will need a set of flange tools .
I suspect that much like many of your day to day tools that you will have to make a few custom brake radius feet . Probably a spot welder electrode or 2 also .
The biggest thing about about magazine tooling is that it's like tooling for aviation . There's a tool set that works for 20 jobs , like a sheet metal brake . There's the right tool that works for that job on 10 models , like a magazine jig for BHP , M9 , 92/96 , P series Ruger etc . Then you have the Beech jack that you can use on 3 models that are really just 2 and have an 85% parts interchange from 1947-to 2000 when they were discontinued , like a hammer sear tool for a S&W N frame .

Itll cost you a days to make that first set of tooling for something like a 1903 pocket 32 ACP . But once the angles are set up and you can make the basic tube then you have a base for about 30 different small 32s . Then you only need the feed lip form/correction tool and a quicky jig for the floor plate retention . 3D printing for followers is likely the easy way out there .

Think about that polishing tool you have for the barrels .
There's no reason to draw or block sand a new round barrel for finish is there ?
A few special end face finish tools , a dozen specific form tools and an oven to do nitriding in and you're golden .