Spanish Mauser

[toooldtocare]

I just picked one up dirt cheap. Its a 8mm. Where can I find some good reading material about it. I know nothing about the 8mm cartridge. Most of what google found is sporterized ****. Now I need dies and brass too. And whats the difference between 8mm and 8x57? Ive got a lot to learn. Just could pass it up for the price.

Turns out the receiver is a large ring Navy. It does have the navy crest on it. He built this rifle himself. It is 8mm. Has Timney trigger set to 2.5 lbs. The stock and barrel is the 24/47. And it kicks like a damn mule with surplus ball ammo. For 100 bucks I couldnt pass it up. It also has a Simmons 3-9x40 on it. I will post pics soon.

[TCLouis]

I suggest you confirm 7.92X57 (8mm, 8X57)before you go any further.

Then post any information about markings on the receiver so we can determine the maker.

Load data may be somewhat determined by the manufacturer.

[toooldtocare]

Ok. The details. It was built on a large ring frame? It is chambered in 8mm. There are no import marks anywhere. It was re barreled. only numbers are 3961. It was a quick deal tonight. I got it from a detective who was on duty. He got a call while he was explaining everything to me. So I am waiting on a email with all the details. I am 100% positive it is 8mm. other than that, i dont know ****

[toooldtocare]

Just got a text from him. the specs are...8mm Spanish air force receiver. Yugo 2447 barrel and stock. timney trigger.

[JIMinPHX]

Most "Spanish" Mausers were 7mm, not 8mm. The ones that I have seen were all small ring. The 8mm Mausers came in at least 2 flavors. I think that they were J & S designations, but I don't remember for sure. The later 8mm had a larger diameter bore than the early 8mm. It's a very bad idea to shoot big ammo in a small bore. Replacement barrels for Mausers are available in all sorts of calibers. Please measure & be sure of what you have before loading.

[MtGun44]

AFAIK, Spanish Mausers are 7x57 originally.

Bill

[Larry Gibson]

M47 or M48 (if memory serves correctly) Spanish Mausers were large ring M98s and in 8mm (8x57 or 7.9x57....same, same......). They were, are quite serviceable M98s.

Larry Gibson

[462]

According to "Mauser Military Rifles of the World", the only listing for an 8 mm Spanish Mauser is the Model 1943 Short Rifle, which seems to be nothing more than the typical re-worked German M98 variant.

How an Air Force receiver (which I thought was 7 mm, not 8 mm, please correct me if I'm wrong) and Yugo 24/47 stock and barrel came together is quite mysterioius.

By the way, Toooldtocare, to answer your question, the above mentioned book is probably the most authoritative military Mauser source.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

AND...
many spanish Mausers were converted to 7.62Nato (AKA: 308win)
But since it has a new barrel...it could be anything ?
have you slugged the bore ? and it's somewhere around .323" ?
is that why you are sure it's 8mm ?


. I am 100% positive it is 8mm.

[UBER7MM]

A Spanish Mauser could be 7x57 or 8x57 (7.92x57 JS) or 7.62x51 CETME. And if it's been rebarreled, then all bets are off. Better slug and chamber cast that barrel and find out.

[220swiftfn]

If the barrel is indeed a 24/47, it'll be the larger bore (well after the switch to .323 in 1905....) But look for the "S" stamp near the chamber to verify anyways.....



Dan

[gew98]

Spain adopted the M43 mauser in 1943 of course , and from the beginning the M43's to include the M43 with the airforce 'crest' were all 7,92 caliber. Spain slowly backed away from 7mm caliber with the adoption of 8mm. There were many gew98's and standard modell rifles in hand form german assistance to franco during the spanish civil war.
The spanish never used the gew88 and hence never the '88 patronen' , only the S patrone and later the sS patrone ( light then heavy ball ) .
The M43's I have owned over the years varied in fit and finish and generally speaking their metal was generally soft , not the best heat treating nor alloy used. I have encountered more than a couple with lug setback in the receiver. The "switch" to the S patronen was in 1903 not 1905. Spanish rifles will not have an 'S' stamp...only the germans used that designation to show S patronen compliance.

[Larry Gibson]

M43 it is, my memory is "refreshed".....thanks.

7.62x51 CETME is also a 7.62 NATO chamber. Just a lighter load in the same case to facilitate extraction reliability in the original CETME rifles with unfluted chambers.

Larry Gibson

[UBER7MM]

M43 it is, my memory is "refreshed".....thanks.

7.62x51 CETME is also a 7.62 NATO chamber. Just a lighter load in the same case to facilitate extraction reliability in the original CETME rifles with unfluted chambers.

Larry Gibson

True. Thanks for the clarification Larry!

Some of those Spanish Model 95 and 1916's converted to FR-7's firing 7.62x51 would be best loaded with reduced cast loads for safety's sake.

[45 2.1]

7.62x51 CETME is also a 7.62 NATO chamber. Just a lighter load in the same case to facilitate extraction reliability in the original CETME rifles with unfluted chambers. Larry Gibson

Hmmm........... you can here anything on the internet, including this. The Cetme is basically a H&K 91. H&K sold Spain the equipment to produce the Cetme rifles, but they also furnished rifles before Spain got there production line going. I have seen many of those rifles marked as Cetmes that are clearly made by H&K. Those early H&K marked Cetme rifles that i've seen all have fluted chambers. Now why would H&K make a rifle designed and proved to work extremely well (as all H&K 91 fluted chambered rifles do) with an unfluted chamber that they knew wouldn't work right? How about a link confirming what you said.

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

Perhaps you should do some research other than on the internet, eh?

Fact is the CETME was in development before the HK91 (same engineers left Spain and went to HK). It was designed for other cartridges than the 7.62 NATA and was adopted to it. The original CETME 7.62 NATO rifles had unfluted chambers and extraction was a problem. The CETME cartridge was developed to use in such. At one time Spain issued 7.62 CETME ammo for use in rifles and 7.62 NATO for use in the SAWs in use. The former CETME German engineers now at HK discovered that fluting the chambers solved the extraction problem. Subsequently all the CETME’s in use had their chambers fluted or were rebarreled. Subsequent CETMEs all have fluted chambers as do all HK M91s.

7.62 CETME and 7.62 NATO were for use in the M1916s, FR7 and the FR8s rebarreled to “7.62”. Perhaps if you hable espanole you can read it from the horses mouth………instead of “on the internet”….

Wouldn’t your :hijack: of this thread with a pi**ing contest with me be better served over o the AR forum? I have withdrawn from joe’s thread so you, he and gear have it to yourselves. Better to make your incorrect derogatory comments to/about me there don’t you think? No need for you to ruin another thread with such on the CBF is there?

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

Additionally I know you've a heartburn with internet and written references (the 3 on ballistics you asked for, I gave and you then criticised among numerous other examples). I'm not one one to use Wikpedia as a reference unless the information is well referenced. Here is the actual facts, in brief, regarding by whom and when the CETME rifle was developed. You have it bacwards BTW; HK did not develop the GS but were licensed by CETME, of Spain, to produce it. Note the references at the end, they are very good ones and not of the "internet".

Also with a little further research on your part you will find why the chambers were fluted......it is just as I said also.

Larry Gibson

Vorgrimler was recruited to work for CETME in Spain. The French initially attempted to prevent him from leaving the country, but Vorgrimler and family were allowed to move to Madrid in September 1950. Once there, Vorgrimler went to work on a roller-delayed rifle chambered for the experimental 7.92x40mm cartridge. Former Rheinmetall engineers led by Hartmut Menneking already had a nine month head start on the gas-operated Modelo 1, but Vorgrimler and his team of former Mauser engineers had their own Modelo 2 prototype ready by December 1950. The Spanish government selected the Modelo 2 for continued development in July, 1952.[2]

[edit] CETME Modelo B

Beside the interest at home in Spain, the Modelo 2 attracted a lot of attention from the West German Border Guards (Bundesgrenzschutz), which sought a new service rifle. Not willing to accept a cartridge outside of the NATO specification, the Germans asked CETME to develop a 7.62 mm version of the rifle. Misunderstanding the German request, CETME developed a 7.62 mm version of the 7.92x40mm cartridge. The Germans then had to explain that they wanted a version chambered for the standard 7.62x51mm NATO. Instead, the resulting CETME Modelo A was chambered for the 7.62x51mm CETME cartridge, which had identical chamber dimensions but a reduced-power load compared to the standard NATO round. Further development of the rifle produced the CETME Modelo B, which had been "improved" with the help of Heckler & Koch, receiving several modifications including the ability to fire from a closed bolt in both semi-automatic and automatic firing modes, a new perforated sheet-metal handguard (the folding bipod had been the foregrip in previous models), improved ergonomics, and a slightly longer barrel with a rifle grenade launcher mount. In 1958, this rifle was introduced into service with the Spanish Army as the Modelo 58. For his efforts in developing the rifle, Vorgrimler was awarded the Encomienda de Alfonso X el Sabio.[2]

In 1956, the Bundesgrenzschutz canceled its planned procurement of the CETME rifles, adopting the FN FAL (G1) instead. However, the newly formed West German Army (Bundeswehr) now displayed interest and soon purchased a number of CETME rifles for further testing. The CETME, known as the Automatisches Gewehr G3, competed successfully against the SIG SG 510 (G2) and AR-10 (G4) to replace the previously favored G1 rifle. In January 1959, the Bundeswehr officially adopted the CETME rifle. The CETME design was licensed by the West German government, and production was transferred to German manufacturers, Heckler & Koch and Rheinmetall. Heckler & Koch would go on to develop an entire family of weapons based on the G3, including the HK33 rifle, HK21 machine gun, and MP5 submachinegun

References

1. a b Stevens, R. Blake (2006). Full Circle: A Treatise on Roller Locking. Collector Grade Publications. pp. 14–19. ISBN 0-88935-400-6.
2. ^ a b c d e Musgrave, Daniel D.; Thomas B. Nelson (1967). The world's assault rifles and automatic carbines. 2. T. B. N. Enterprises. p. 64.
3. ^ a b Walter, John (2006). Rifles of the World (3 ed.). Krause Publications. p. 82. ISBN 0-89689-241-7.
• Vorgrimler, Ludwig, Entwicklungsgeschichte CETME-Gewehr - Deutsches-Bundeswehrgewehr G3, 1977.

[45 2.1]

How about a link confirming what you said.

Well Larry.... I see you still can't give what was asked for.... That would be a link......... not your very long posts.

You really need to NOT bring your battle to this forum. Either take it back to where it occured or DON'T POST IT HERE. Nobody cares what you've done elsewhere.

[Multigunner]

Spain used a few GEW 98 Mausers with the original shot out 7.92 bores relined to 7mm sometime before or during the Spanish Civil War.
Thats all I've seen on these, only few every showed up on the surplus market still retaining the relined 7mm barrel.
Its likely they were rebarreled to 7.92 and sold off or perhaps scrapped.

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

As usual someone else must do it for you........a link is; http://www.cruffler.com/review-july-00.html

Now, you asked for a "link", you got one so don't whine about it ok. You amaze me. On one hand you complain about information off the "internet", then you ask for a link to such[smilie=b: I provide you with well documented references and you complain.........:veryconfu

BTW, regards "You really need to NOT bring your battle to this forum. Either take it back to where it occured or DON'T POST IT HERE. Nobody cares what you've done elsewhere." You're post #15 (your 1st post in this thread) started this. Suggest you take your own advise. You have your link, the facts are that you'e wrong. My point is well made, I'm done with you here.

Larry Gibson

[john hayslip]

I ran into a fellow once who had a 7mm South American Mauser that had been threaded for a muzzle brake. While I was watching him shoot it he stopped and started rubbing his shoulder and saying the rifle had really kicked him. On looking the brake had departed with the bullet and was found about 45 yards downrange. The barrel had been relined and you couldn't tell it and the threading for the brake had almost cut down to it.
Of course this doesn't answer the question and only a chamber cast will tell for sure.

[waksupi]

Okay, knock it off, before I have to lock it.

[45 2.1]

M43 it is, my memory is "refreshed".....thanks.
7.62x51 CETME is also a 7.62 NATO chamber. Just a lighter load in the same case to facilitate extraction reliability in the original CETME rifles with unfluted chambers.
Larry Gibson

I noted your link: As usual someone else must do it for you........a link is; http://www.cruffler.com/review-july-00.html (http://www.cruffler.com/review-july-00.html)

I went and looked. It stated: Like all delayed blowback firearms, the chamber is fluted to aid in extraction. That is directly the opposite of what you stated in the quote above. That is what I queried about. I think, with all the browbeating you tried to do here, you owe me an apology, for that and being wrong.

[Larry Gibson]

Back to the topic; if the spanish mauser is a M43 then it should be ok with regular 8x57 loads. I've had several of them over the years and, if the barrels are good they have all been good shooters, especially with cast. My own M43 was shot by me a lot with 8x57 loads, then I shot a 6mm remming ton barrel out I put on it and then a 6.5-280 barrel. Currently it is my 45 ACP though and still going strong.

Larry Gibson

[Multigunner]

I ran into a fellow once who had a 7mm South American Mauser that had been threaded for a muzzle brake. While I was watching him shoot it he stopped and started rubbing his shoulder and saying the rifle had really kicked him. On looking the brake had departed with the bullet and was found about 45 yards downrange. The barrel had been relined and you couldn't tell it and the threading for the brake had almost cut down to it.
Of course this doesn't answer the question and only a chamber cast will tell for sure.

I wonder if that was one of the Spanish GEW 98 rifles sold off to a South American country?
The 7mm was really popular in most Spanish speaking countries from Mexico to Venezuela.

The excellent penetration of the 172-175 gr round nose let it walk right through both brush and timber barricades in jungle or forest fighting.

I remember that some German officer in Africa during WW1 special ordered 7mm rifles for his native troops in preference to the more easily available 7.92. The older slower and heavier 7mm bullet beat out the WW1 era 154 gr 7.92 bullets in heavy cover.

Spitzers were more lethal on flesh, but the old round nose could plow through just about anything that got between the shooter and that flesh.

PS
The Boer's 1893-1895 7mm Mausers had a rash of blow outs due to defective ammunition, which for a time sullied the Mauser reputation.
The "Kort Nek" 7mm cartridge had a 53mm case with neck 4mm shorter than the 7X57. No body really knows how these short cased rounds ended up with the Boers, and no rifle chambered for the 7X53 Cartridge is known.
Its speculated that the cartridges had been made up using 7.65X53 cases reformed to fit the 7X57.
The Boers took to applying a thick green bullet lube to the Kort Neck bullets, which somehow prevented further blow outs.
The British thought the green gunk was a poison and started executing Boers caught with the green coated bullets.

Aside from that the 93-95 Mausers had an excellent record, though not as tough as later 98 actions.

Before WW1 DWM once marketed a hot loaded 7X57 cartridge intended only for rifles with the 98 action (1912?)and for medium and light machineguns.
It drove a 154 grain bullet at well over 2900 fps and was the most powerful military cartridge rifle of the day. I suspect use of this cartridge in a 93-95 would set back the lugs a bit with every shot.

I'm no fan of the small ring Spanish Mausers rebarreled to 7.62, but if only NATO spec M-80 Ball were used, or an equivalent 150 grain .308 load, the action should hold up okay, if headspace is within reason of course. Some of the .308 long range target and 7.62 Sniper cartridges push the limits for any .308 bolt action.

PPS
I do remember reading that a shipment of bad 7.62 ammo was responsible for several blow ups of Spanish Mausers. IIRC these were Santa Barbra cartridges and on examination it was found that proof test cartridges generating 68,000 CUP had gotten mixed in with the regular ball rounds.
A Company called CBC also has been named in a massive lawsuit involving the destruction of many 7.62 rifles of several types due to defective 7.62 ammunition.
They also marketed some very bad .303 ammunition as well, the cases were much like the old balloonhead black powder cartridge cases, and often split at the base.

Personally I no longer trust Milsurp ammo, and especially not the non US manufacture 7.62 Nato surplus ammo.

[Larry Gibson]

45 2.1

Perhaps you missed the word "original" in what I said? The 7.62 CETME cartridge was then loaded with a lighter bullet and less psi for reliable extraction. They then found fluting the chambers allowed reliable extraction with the full powered 7.62 NATO cartridge.

You need to let it go.

Larry Gibson

[Multigunner]

I went and looked. It stated: Like all delayed blowback firearms, the chamber is fluted to aid in extraction. That is directly the opposite of what you stated in the quote above.

Larry is correct, and if you thought about it you'd realize that the above bolded statement is not correct because they did not word it properly.
For one thing it is in reference to the model C, not the previous models.
Also not every delayed blowback firearm has a fluted chamber, though near as I can tell every efficient/sucessful delayed blowback full powered rifle has a fluted chamber.
Previous full power delayed blowback rifles or MGs, as well as some locked breech weapons that had very poor primary extraction, used oiled , greased, or dry waxed cartridge cases.
Most locked breech autoloader pistols are actually delayed blowback in operation if not in principle, and don't require a fluted chamber since pressure drops more rapidly in the short barrel so cartridge cases don't grip the chamber walls that tightly.

[waksupi]

Just in case anyone missed it, keep things civil. Threads will be locked if things can't be discussed calmly. Further actions will follow that.

[45 2.1]

Larry is correct, and if you thought about it you'd realize that the above bolded statement is not correct because they did not word it properly.
For one thing it is in reference to the model C, not the previous models.

Here is his original statement:
7.62x51 CETME is also a 7.62 NATO chamber. Just a lighter load in the same case to facilitate extraction reliability in the original CETME rifles with unfluted chambers.

One, from reading the above would assume he is talking about the Cetme or Nato chamber.... not any other model. There is no paragraph change signifying another topic.... one sentence after another in the same paragraph. The statement and link he gave are both posts by him....... and contradict each other (whether or not they are true). He specifically mentions the Cetme/Nato chamber. One would think the same person who made the posts would reinforce what they say and cleary make a reference to some other model and caliber rifle clear, but that didn't happen... did it.

[gew98]

I remember that some German officer in Africa during WW1 special ordered 7mm rifles for his native troops in preference to the more easily available 7.92. The older slower and heavier 7mm bullet beat out the WW1 era 154 gr 7.92 bullets in heavy cover.

Spitzers were more lethal on flesh, but the old round nose could plow through just about anything that got between the shooter and that flesh.

.



Ok ; show us/me the source fo rthe "german officer in Africa" being able to order 7mm ammo for rifles they DID NOT have. The Kaiserlich Schutztruppe was armed with 71 and 71/84 black powder mausers until the issue of the gew98. They never got the gew88... nor any 7mm caliber rifle. They were so hard pressed in Africa they in short order were utilizing captured SMLE's on a grand scale.
Sure love to see where you remembered such a story.

[waksupi]

The NEXT post right after mine, was right back at it. Thread closed. I can keep closing them, if that's what it takes.