454424 crimp

[kelbro]

Where do you crimp this bullet in a 45LC? Lyman book says over the front band.

Haven't tried it yet but is that rec due to the length? I'm planning to shoot these in a '79 Blackhawk. COAL wasn't really a concern when I was shooting my 45LCs in my 454 Casull SRH.

I always used 2400 when shooting the SRH. I will be working up some Unique loads starting at 8gr and not expecting to go over 10gr. Should find something in that range that will do the job.

[Char-Gar]

There is a crimp groove on that bullet..use it!

[kelbro]

That's what I've always done, until I had to go and read the fine print! Ignorance is bliss sometimes LOL.

Well, I guess that the way that I've been loading it should be a little lower pressure since they spec it crimped over the front band.

[subsonic]

Try it both ways, but remember that case capacity is lower with it crimped over the front band, so stick to load data for seating that way.

There should be plenty of cylinder lenth to crimp in the crimp groove.

[Tim357]

Lyman recommended that crimp because, for whatever reason, the nose of the boolit, when crimped in the crimp groove, made the overall length of the cartridge too long for a Colt cylinder. Measure your cylider, measure your cartridge OAL, then see if it will fit your cylinder. Methinks you should be OK with the Ruger. Those molds, and to a lesser extent,RCBS version of same, had differing amounts of nose lengths over the years.

[Guesser]

I crimp it in the crimp groove for my Ruger NMBH, works well, but it was too long for the Freedom Arms in 45 Colt, but I don't have the FA any longer. End of problem.

[Char-Gar]

Elmer Keith designed that bullet to crimp in the groove he put there. To thunder with Lyman.

[Dale53]

The reason Lyman suggested crimping over the front band is they changed the design of the bullet when they remade the cherry. The new bullet was too long for the Colt cylinder. Shame on Lyman. Elmer designed the bullet correctly and the old moulds would work just fine.

I cannot imagine the mind set that allows a company to completely change a bullet and keep the same number on it. Loading data that was safe with one design may or may not be safe with another.

I used early Lyman moulds with excellent results. I just don't know this company any more...

Roger Smith did a nice article complete with photos covering this particular problem in Handloader #26 (June-July 2009). It is worth a read.

Dale53

[9.3X62AL]

You can pre-check with a caliper (The Tale Of The Tape) on components prior to assembling them, but I've not had an overlength issue with #454424 (my two versions, made years apart) In my Ruger BisHawk or in a now-departed Uberti Pasta Colta. Mr. Keith's whole rationale with his SWC designs was to get as much of the bullet outside the case as possible while still having the assembly fit the charge hole--this for the purpose of maximizing powder space. Lyman moves in mysterious ways, for darn sure.

In the Blackhawk you should find the 8.0 grain load of Unique to be tractable and accurate, and it gets ~800 FPS in my 7.5" barrel. The 10.0 grain load equals the black-powder ballistics of the original balloon-head cases that contained 40 grains of THB, close to 1000 FPS from the long tube. I have not been without a 45 Colt revolver for well over 20 years, and plan to maintain that status quo.

One "reverse-engineering" step I have taken with this caliber is to cease usage of the RCBS tungsten-carbide sizing die, and go Old School with a steel sizer. The SAAMI cartridge sketch shows a case diameter of .480", but the T/C sizer reduced the cases to .469". Way too much sizing, and the subsequent expansion of the case mouth gave a pronounced "Coke-bottle" aspect to the finished rounds. This had to shorten case life. The steel sizer reduces cases to .476"-.477". Much better.

The 45 Colt T/C sizer now serves to size 45 ACP cases; the RCBS 45 ACP sizer cranks them down to .467, which (again) is too much of a good thing. Over-working cartridge brass benefits only the brass maker, who sells more brass as the casings expire prematurely.

[felix]

Ideally, Al, for low pressure loads, the boolit being the same size of the inside of a fired case plus one thousands should provide enough grip on a new boolit. If pressure slightly too high, increase hardness of boolit just enough for the total job, which includes keeping the 6th round from coming apart in the cylinder. ... felix

[Char-Gar]

I shoot thousands of 454424 bullets in various 45 Colt sixguns. I have two Rugers (a Blackhawk and a Flatop) plus a Colt New Service. I crimp in the crimp groove as others have done for generations.

To duplicate the old black powder 45 Colt load requires 8 to 9 grains of Unique, the amount depending on the individual pistol. I split the difference at 8.5 grains and have been happy with that for many years.

[Char-Gar]

Re: Sizing and expanding 45 Colt cases

The current crop of TC 45 Colt dies put an awful squeeze on the case and the expander doesn't open them up enough not to damage most cast bullets. I do understand somebody is now making a duel sizing ring TC die that helps with the oversizing problem.

My solution is retro, as are most of my solutions.

I have a RCBS steel die from the early 60's that sizes the neck and just a tad on the body to allow it to freely chamber any sixgun. The result is you get rounds that are no so oversize they lay in the bottom of the charge hole and launch the bullet crooked.

The Lyman 310 dies set for the 45 Colt came with a .454 expander and the set for the 45 ACP came with a .452 expander. I have both of these expander dies and with a Lyman adapter use them in my presses. This cures the issues of the under expanded case necks.

[9.3X62AL]

It doesn't a MONDO DEEP roll crimp into #454424's generous crimp groove to keep boolits from creeping out due to recoil. A light to moderate roll crimp suffices to keep things together, even with 1100-1200 FPS loads.

I hear ya, Felix. I don't like for case mouths to do ANY boolit sizing.

[runfiverun]

for my b-hawk convertable i can use the crimp groove.
but for my 92 levergun i have to seat them as a swc and very just barely crimp the drive band.
which is odd as it will take waaay over saami length with a rnfp.
i don't really mind as the b-hawk shoots them crimped over the band more accuratly,so it's a win win.
if i want full length the rnfp [452664] seated to the crimp groove feeds and shoots just as well in both as the 454424 seated short.

[kelbro]

Fits the Blackhawk just fine in the crimp groove.

[9.3X62AL]

Fits the Blackhawk just fine in the crimp groove.

Awright, then--yer enroute!

[kelbro]

12.5 and 13.0gr of HS6 is like magic in this pistol. 50/50 COWW/SOWW + 2% Sn boolits with NRA lube sized to .452.

The sights were off for the Unique loads so I need to try them again.

[felix]

There is absolutely no need for a crimp groove on any moderate load. Use the same pressure on pressurizing the roll crimp as can be gently felt on crimp groove or not, and increase pressure only when necessary as per above posts. ... felix

[runfiverun]

yessir.
just touching the crimp ring is plenty.
i use the same touch on a 45 acp for one of my 1911's.
and with the same lyman 200 gr swc in the 45 colt leverguns.
more an angle change on the case mouth than a roll crimp.

[kelbro]

I plan to try some of my 200gr SWC 45ACP bullets in this one too for plinking. Quite a versatile caliber.