The 1899 Savage 303 with cast boolits

[Mr Humble]

Have this rather nice "B" model made in 1910 with a mint bore.
Many claim Savage factory ammo of that era was loaded with a .311 jacketed bullet of 180 gr in the belief that this would give it a real edge of the 30-30 Winchester. I've never had any 303 ammo that old to measure. Happily Norma made a run of 303 cases and I bought 2 boxes. The rifle really does not like any 150-170 .308 jacketed bullets and there are no 180s designed to expand at 303 velocities. The obvious answer is cast boolits. Have an NEI 190 gr RNGC with the driving band that when cast with the "Lyman mix" drops at .3125 and the Saeco .311 die makes happy bullets. Trying to find data is hopeless unless you have the odd powders that Lee lists for a 180 or happen to have a lot of old (pre WW II) loading books. Most of the powders are long gone but 2400, 4227 & 4198 live on.
Trail Boss also lists some 32-40 loads with heavy cast boolits but the velocity was <900 fps and the results too poor to share.

So I unlimbered the old gal that wears a Lyman Alaskan in Stith no drill mounts with the world finest crosshair and a 2" Lee dot.

The rifle:

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The loads were tried at 50 yards and the bullets were just sized, lubed and gaschecked with no weight segregation. All except the Trail Boss has cornmeal filler
(I love the smell of barrel burned cornmeal in the morning !) added to ensure a compressed load. Primers were std WW LR. By the time I got to the 2400, it was late and I used a Lee dipper. Other charges were thrown from one hoard of my Lyman 55s (I hate re-setting measures).

Obviously the 2400 load needs further testing with various weighed charges & segregated bullets.

My Ideal #34 manual 1940 shows for the 303 Savage
170 cast 20 2400 1875 fps
180 jkt 31 4198 2375 fps
180 jkt 40 3031 2450 fps

My Lyman Cast Bullet loading book 1958 says use 30-30 loads.
165 cast 22 gr 2400
170 cast: 26 gr 4227 or 27 gr 4198

I started quite low and the cases just fell out with the soft WW primers looking as if fired in an empty chamber.

Results of my loads:

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Ultimate goal is to get the 190 up to about 1800 fps for woods stalking rifle where 100 yards is a "fur piece".

Comments, suggestions most welcome.:cast_boolits:

[KCSO]

Nice rifle and nice groups. I have a 1910 rifle in 30-30 and I sure wish I could put a scope on it, I may have to sell it as I can't shooot the irons anymore. Try W/W 748 for a hunting load, I am getting 1950 fps wrom a Ideal 170 grain bullet with excellent accuracy at 100 yards.

[Mr Humble]

Thanks for the load info. I have never had as good results with medium burners and cast bullets as fast burners with cornmeal.

As for scoping the 1910 rifle ....... what it is ? You can find a Stith no drill (not cheap) for almost anything. As for irons and old eyes (I'm 70), the key is to get glasses made that are sharp on the front sight and use a "peep" (tang or receiver) in the back. The sight error between the sights is far more important that a slightly blurred target. I have a 1950 94 carbine 32 Special with a new windage adjustable Marble tang sight and a Redfield Soughdough front that is "12" wide @ 100".
I have no problem shooting 5 shot 2" groups @ 100. If you want to get target serious an aperture front (matched to the black bulleye size) will let you shoot groups almost as good as a low power scope.

[frnkeore]

In loading for my 1901, 1899, 303 Sav., I'm having trouble with vertical stringing with the high end loads, the reason I believe, is that it jumps off the bags when shot off the forearm, because of it's light weight. The load that I'm refering to is, 30.0 gr 3031 and a 150 gr jacketed bullet.

Does anyone have a technic to deal with this? I don't like the idea of holding the forearm down as I don't think I can do it consistantly.

Regarding sights, I don't have a scope on mine but, I do have a tang sight and I agree with Mr Humble on it's value. Even though I have the vertical issue my windgage doesn't very more than 1/2" with the above load. I wear glasses and will be 68 in 1.5 months. I've bid on several Stith mounts but, they all went to high for me so, I'm still looking. You can get a tang sight for $100 - 125 with windgage $150>.


One other issue that I would like to ask about is groove diameter. Mine is a very early rifle #21.5xx and the groove is only .306. I have read that they used small grooves to increase pressure and velocity but, I haven't heard of any as small as mine. Does anyone else have a groove under .308?


Frank

[Mr Humble]

There are two ways to shoot a 99 off a rest. Method #1 is to put the front bag under the receiver, #2 is to hold the rifle front and back as you would in the field. I.E. grip the forend firmly but not pulling down against the bag and hold the pistol grip firmly while pulling the butt into your shoulder.
The 99 trigger demands this method as while it's not bad, it is also not a Canjar SS trigger either.
The horrible, but popular Lead Sled (I owned one for a brief time) holds the rifle too high and does not duplicate the way a rifle is held in the field. The Shooters Ridge recoil reducing rest is far more like shooting off bags (skip the barbell use a bag of birdshot).

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People who actually hunt with rifles understand that field positions are not benchrest setups.
When you shoot off a bench, the goal is to duplicate insofar as possible, the way the rifle will be handles in an improvised field rest.

If you do that the 99 will not string, it will shoot nice round groups, if the loads are right.

.306 is amazing. The barrel boring drill must have been at the end of its service life. It is hard to slug a lever gun barrel with the barrel installed. You might want to shoot some pooper cast bullets into a ballistic water tank and measure them.

A mint Stith no drill mount and an equally good Alaskan will set you back $500 or more unless you find a fool. Worth every penny and will never depreciate.

Shot some more 2400 loads today with the same results. Dug out a bunch of lead and wheelweight ones and weighed them on the RCBS electronic scale. Although the mold is listed as a 190 gr, the Lyman metal ones came in at 205-207 and the wheelweight ones at 208-210.

Sorted them down until I had 10 lead and 10 wheelweight that were +- 3/10 and loaded up 17 gr (what I shot today) and 18 gr of 2400 with the cornmeal filler. Will also take the Chrony to see the velocity.

Weekends are for trap and sporting clays, so it'll be waiting until Monday.

[frnkeore]

Thank's for the tips M H, what technic do you use?

I'm sure of the .306 groove. I've sluged barrels since '83 and alway slug from the muzzle. I'm lucky enough to have a mold that casts .308 bullets, it's a Ideal 311413 EX S. I've shot it but, only with 28.0 gr 3031(Probably to fast) . The vertical was simular but the windgage open to just under 2" @ 100 but, I can't tell anything until I get a good bench technic. I have since bought a 180FN RCBS to try in it but, haven't gotten back to that rifle yet.

Frank

[Mr Humble]

I use method #2 as this is a hunting rifle.

Tried some more loads. Several things are clear:
1. 17 gr of 2400 with cornmeal 1/2 way up the neck is the best load so far.
2. The Lyman #2 metal mix is far better than wheel weights as a bullet metal in this rifle. I suspect that it bumps up better in the generous bore.
3. I will not be able to get over 1400-1500 fps with this bullet in this rifle.

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Cast boolits are not easy but that's what makes them interesting. This rifle will not shoot any jacketed 308 bullet very well, so lead makes sense, especially given 1910 barrel steel.

[Larry Gibson]

I assisted a friend develop a load with the 311299 for use in his 303 Savage. It was indeed a 12" twist. We went full throttle with H4895 developing a very good load at 1900 - 150 fps (going off memeory here). He casts them soft and mildly HPs them with a Forster 1/8" tool. They are deadly on deer and roosevelt elk.....

Larry Gibson

[Mr Humble]

Boolit lube is SPG as it works in everything. Tried 4198, 3031, 4985 and Varget. Faster but groups were no better than jacketed bullets. With the price of SAECO sizing dies and what the bullet drops at, I can't justify going larger. I may try some "as cast" just for grins.
Can't really complain too much about groups the size of the Lee dot in a 2.5X scope and 7 decade eyes.
Antelope opened for me today and I also have two prime Elk draw tags, so priorities have changed.
Also have a Savage 116 9.3x62 that I want to play with and a Browning 1885 High Wall 45-70 that I want to try some duplex 2400/2FG loads that I used to shoot in an 1886 back 40 odd years ago.

First gotta find an atypical Speed Goat to drop with the new 80 TTSXs from my 1885 Browning High Wall Wyoming Centennial going out of the 28" bbl # 3997 fps. Amazing bullet with Hornady Superperformance powder. Rifle has strange 1 in 13 twist which limited it to varmints until now.

[Mr Humble]

Well everyone is entitled to an opinion.

IME if a lube fails you get leading, I have never had any leading with SPG with smokeless or black in numerous rifles and pistols.

If there is no leading, how can the lube be to blame ?

Among BP shooter both MZ and cartridge I know, SPG is respected by all.

What lube do you suggest ?

[Mr Humble]

So your theory is that the cornmeal is scrubbing out the leading ? It really is not abrasive so I doubt that. There are no chunks of lube in the targets as you can see. Bullets recovered from a water tank show no evidence of blowby.
Next trying "as cast" dipped in SAECO lube and the best 2400 load with the cornmeal.

[Dan Cash]

One other issue that I would like to ask about is groove diameter. Mine is a very early rifle #21.5xx and the groove is only .306. I have read that they used small grooves to increase pressure and velocity but, I haven't heard of any as small as mine. Does anyone else have a groove under .308?


Frank

I have a 49 or 50 99 in .300 Sav which slugs .306 in the groove.

[frnkeore]

Very interesting, I wouldn't thought that there would be one that small, that late. I wonder if quality control was that bad throught there production. The vast majority of jacketed shooters don't slug their barrels, so it may have gone un-noticed?

Frank

[Mr Humble]

No Savage QC was not at all bad. In fact, as today, they were always noted for the quality of their barrels. Most 99 solid frame rifles will shoot as well as commercial bolt action sporters of the same era.
When you say it mikes .306 in the groove, that means the bore is even smaller by several thou.
I'd want to reslug that several times and be sure your mike is correct.
What you say you have is like shooting a .313 bullet in a 308 Winchester. Not a healthy plan.

[frnkeore]

MH,
I'm a retired Aerospace machine shop owner and I still have a lot of my machine shop and inspection equipment.

I just rechecked the barrel and the bore is (using pin gages) between .3005 and .3010. Closer to the .3010 by the feel of the gages. The groove is again, .306. .0025 wasn't considered shallow rifling in thoughs days, as the 32/40's run .002 - .003. I have a Ballard with a .315 bore and .319 groove.

I supposae that the bore could well have started out as .300 but, there is no way of knowing, I doubt that the groove has grown much if any as it isn't subjected to as much pressure and friction. All I can tell you is that is the bore and groove of my 1899 in 303 Savage.

Regarding shooting over size bullets, in at least one version of the 303 Sav. story, they did that intentionally to rise pressure and velocity with the powders available at that time, so as to be able to out do the 30/30.

Frank

PS
Thought it isn't really relavant, I have two remingtons with .306 groves and .300 bores, a mod 14 and a mod 30 bolt action, both in 30 Remington. I also have Remington 150 gr RN bullets from the 50's that measure .307.

[gnoahhh]

I routinely deer hunt with an 1899H takedown Savage carbine, and with the Lyman 30½ rear sight and standard bead front consistently get 3/4-1" groups at 50 yards and 1½+" groups at 100. Only one of my molds, the one that makes the bullets I hunt with which is an old custom Saeco 190gr. FN with a wide meplat, produces that kind of accuracy. My other .30 molds of 150-180gr. aren't bad, but not that good. I shoot them as-cast (.310) in my .300/.308 bore, out of WW+tin (bhn12), over my pet load of 28gr. 3031, no filler. Cases practically "fall out of the chamber"- no stretching/swelling at all. The deer I killed with it behaved like any other deer killed with .30/30-class rifles- DRT with spine/neck shots, 25-50yd. 'tracking' when lung/heart shot.

A dandy practice load for me is the same bullet, or the 'old' NEI 180 RN (at.310" also), same alloy as above, and anywhere between 13 to 15 grains SR-4759-- it doesn't seem to make much difference, and again no filler. One inch and less groups all day long at 50 yds., and an empty beer can dancing at 100.

I will confess though that my favorite load of all is a 311241 PB bullet over 5gr. of either Red Dot or Bullseye. Give me a musette bag full of them and plenty of plinking targets and I'm in heaven.

The only lube I use, on all of the bullets mentioned above, is Javelina 50/50 NRA formula. It satisfies me and I feel no need to switch. Also, I rarely, if ever, use a filler- at least in the .303 Savage.

I refuse to give in to scoping any of my 1899 Savages. To me it just doesn't 'look' right, but more because I don't like messing with the fine balance of said rifles when equipped with iron sights. I do use nothing but Lyman tang sights, and found that a pair of 1.00x el-cheapo drugstore reading glasses sharpens up the front sight without wrecking the target image enough so as to keep me in the iron sight game. I also from time to time rely on the aperture affixed to my shooting glasses (either via a small hole poked in a piece of electricians tape or an iris mounted on a swing arm clamped to the shank of the glasses), but that's only when at the range. When hunting I let the 1.00x half-frame 'cheaters' ride down on the tip of my nose, and nudge them into position with my thumb when I bring the gun up to take a shot. Works pretty well for my soon-to-be-60 year old eyes, with a little practice.

[Mr Humble]

MH,
I'm a retired Aerospace machine shop owner and I still have a lot of my machine shop and inspection equipment.

I just rechecked the barrel and the bore is (using pin gages) between .3005 and .3010. Closer to the .3010 by the feel of the gages. The groove is again, .306. .0025 wasn't considered shallow rifling in thoughs days, as the 32/40's run .002 - .003. I have a Ballard with a .315 bore and .319 groove.

I supposae that the bore could well have started out as .300 but, there is no way of knowing, I doubt that the groove has grown much if any as it isn't subjected to as much pressure and friction. All I can tell you is that is the bore and groove of my 1899 in 303 Savage.

Regarding shooting over size bullets, in at least one version of the 303 Sav. story, they did that intentionally to rise pressure and velocity with the powders available at that time, so as to be able to out do the 30/30.

Frank

PS
Thought it isn't really relavant, I have two remingtons with .306 groves and .300 bores, a mod 14 and a mod 30 bolt action, both in 30 Remington. I also have Remington 150 gr RN bullets from the 50's that measure .307.

The confusion is your use of terms. The grooves are the deepest part of the rifling, the lands are the highest point. There is no substitute for slugging a bore. It's SOP in any gunsmithing book. A Ballard is hardly fair to compare to a modern mass produced Savage 99.

[frnkeore]

To start with, accuracy is accuracy. I doubt at in the shooting at the turn of the century there was ANY factory Savage rifle that could beat a factory Ballard in ANY shooting match (excepting a speed match) and that still holds true today. Ballards were mass produced in there manufactor. The 1899 barrels were made with the same method as a Ballard. I'm not a Savage colletor and I don't own a 99 so, I know nothing about there barrels. I know a little about the history of the 1899/99 and that is all.

The bore of a rifle is the hole through the barrel that the rifling is produced from (cut rifling) and all that remains of it is the width of the lands. That means that it is the smallest part of the barrel. Pin gages are a world wide aerospace measuring standard for the measurement of internal diameters. If a harden and ground pin that is approx 2" long, will enter a bore, that means that the bore is larger than that pin. If a pin will not enter, it is smaller that that pin. In my case a pin that's .3005 will enter the bore and a pin that is .301 will not. It matters not what a particular gunsmith may say in a book. I could also measure the groove diameter with a "bore gage" and get a more accurate dimension for that but, it takes about 20 minutes to set the gage up. so, I use the sluging method.

There are NO international standards for gunsmithing work, there is for everything in aerospace.

Call a barrel maker and ask them how accurate my gage pin method is. I can gaurentee you that they do not use a lead slug to measure their barrels. Gage pins are faster and more accurate to measure bores than sluging. Besides that, unless you have a blade mic narrower than the lands you can not measure the bore/land diameter and you cant even do that if your barrel has a odd number of lands and grooves.

Frank

[gnoahhh]

Marlin was the LAST maker of Ballards, and also made barrels for the 1895 and early 1899 Savages.

Just the 1895's. Those barrels can be identified by the 'JM' stamp on their bottom sides.

[Mr Humble]

Looking through my cast bullet library, I ran across some Lyman experiments on heat treating completed bullets. One hour at 450 degrees in the oven and quench in room temp. water. Also tried two medium burners 3031 (from Lyman book) and Varget as it's a good powder. Again tried the 17 gr of 2400 with and w/o filler. The filler did raise pressure and apparently contributed nothing to accuracy. Extraction was more difficult and primers were a lot flatter. As a "control" I loaded some Hornady 170 gr jacketed bullets with the 22 gr of 3031 (<.5 gr from the 173 gr Lyman starter load for a 30-30)

It appears that the heat treating benefits the 3031 and Varget loads (the 2400 loads were not heat treated bullets). The 3031 load shows promise when compared to the "control group" with jacketed bullets.

The 2400 load has proven itself although I doubt I will be able to "upload" it to a hunting load with this +-210 gr bullet. next step will be to heat treat more and start working the 3031 load up with the help of a chronograph. At the same time "control" loads with the 170 Hornady will be made with the same powder and charge. (In the past .308 jacketed bullets do not group well once the 30-30 max is hit)

Far too warm to pursue speed goats and they have yet to start their "drift" South in any numbers worth noting........ so might as well play with the 1899.

Also noted I had failed to show the NEI bullet as cast.

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[Mr Humble]

The problems with dropping bullets into water are:
1. splash back into the mold
2. bullets hitting each other in a multi cavity mold on the way down to the water
3. you can't inspect the bullets before they are wet. Any water in a void can provide real excitment when remelting
4. it slows things down

The "baking method" eliminates all these issues and the bullets are hardened when done.

Water quenched bullets do lose their hardness over time, so best used when "fresh".

[odicoilius]

Mr humble : FYI Some of these old Savages are incredibly accurate. A few years ago a friend had a .303 that he wanted to load ammo for. It so happens I have a set of dies (picked up at a garage sale) so I went to work .
Loaded up 10 rounds with 165 Hornady .308 sp and 2 below max. charges of IMR 4064. both groups were under !.25" @ 100yds.
Note this rifle looked like hell, forearm split, barrel had tape to hold forearm on and it looked like it was dragged over a cactus patch, but that fine savage barrel still shot! Odocoilius Manitoba Canada.

[Mr Humble]

OD, agree have owned many old and new 1895s,1899s and 99s. Almost any solid frame gun will shoot sub moa with the correct loads.

Insofar as reading vs doing, hot lead and water just don't mix. You keep that up and "here today gone tomorrow" could take on a whole new meaning !

I'll stick with the facts as presented in the Lyman old spiral bound cast bullet book, the newer Lyman ones, the two volume OOP NRA set on cast bullets as well as the experts who write for Handloader magazine. Every author I have read on quenching or baking bullets agrees that, over time, the hardness diminishes (and not by thumbnail tests).

I've seen the excitement that dropping a defective bullet with entrapped water back into the pot causes when I was younger and dumber (and happily wearing a full face shield). All rejects now go into a plumbers pot (cold) on an unlit propane burner outside the barn. THEN the burner is lit and the area cleared. The slow heating usually vaporizes the water but there have been "pop, pops" heard infrequently. A bit more work, but far easier than learning to use a guide dog.:dung_hits_fan:

[Mr Humble]

As was suggested I went back to my 22 gr load and bumped it up a grain at a time.
While there were no pressure signs at all (cases fell out) I did note that the 30-30 maximum with a 173 gr boolit was 26 gr for about 1900 fps. While the 303 is a bit larger, I think I've reached the prudent max and groups are stringing at 25 gr.
Here are the latest groups @ 50 yards. Remember the scope is a 2.5X Lyman Alaskan with a 2 or 3 " dot (@100) so there is an optical limitation at work too.
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Think I'll be real picky with 10 boolits and try the 24 gr load on paper and through the Chrony. 5 @ 50 and 5 @ 100. I'm guessing 1600-1700 fps which with that big boolit should work fine for Deer or Antelope @ 100 yds or less.

Antelope and Elk close the 31st. With the mild weather the Elk are still to far up for this old man but I have passed on a dozen or so nice typical Antelope as I'm looking for an atypical. That quest will be abandoned this afternoon as today is cool, windy and overcast ..... the goats should be moving.