Whiterabbit's matchdot test version 2.0

[subsonic]

Headed to the range soon for the test. Should prove interesting!

12" Encore .480 barrel with loads the same length as .475LB and same powder charge.

[BoolitSchuuter]

Be interested to know how that Matchdot works for ya. I just put an Ultradot on a Rossi 971 (6 inch, 357 mag). Every three shots, the retainer O ring comes off the polarizer filter and lands on my chest. My Rossi puts three rounds in a 1 inch group at 50 yards.

[subsonic]

OK, here are the 50yd targets:

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/P9200763_zps0ab1cb77.jpg

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/P9200764_zps753b8fc6.jpg

And here is the explaination:

I brought 25rds of .480s loaded long to .475 OAL - these chamber in the .480 Encore barrel easily. Load: 24.5gr H110, Fed 155 primer, Speer 400gr Gold Dot, OAL 1.735". Did not chrono, but guessing that a 12" barrel with no BC gap is getting at least 1350 out of these. They run 1300 out of my 8.25" BFR in .475 brass.

Took a few shots to make sure things would be on paper at 50yds, then shot a 5 shot group with the iron sights that measured about 2" including 1 called flyer. This group is not shown - it landed off the paper on some cardboard backer and it's out in the bed of the truck.

Yanked the rear iron sight, installed a T/C "maxima" steel base and Whiterabbit's Matchdot with his Warne rings and set the dot to 4". Proceded to make sure the zero was close enough for government work and shot the group you see at the top left area of the top target. Yes, 5 shots that look like a 4 leaf clover with one flyer out left that I "saw" as the trigger broke. I have to tell you at this point, I almost stopped and said "it's fine". But then turned the dot to 2" and adjusted the zero to be down and right toward the center of the target to keep the groups away from each other. Then I shot that "scattered" slightly over 2" group you see in the middle of the target. I hung another target at that point and that is the target below with 6 shots instead of 5. I shot that 6 shot ~2" group with the dot back on 4". Notice that the zero seems to drift to the right on these two targets.

All of the usual variables were in attendance today - outdoor range, wind, barrel heat, human error, etc. I did my best to shoot well, but the factory wood Encore pistol grip was trying to remove my thumb until I figured out exactly how and where to grip it. I definitely need to change grips if I am going to continue to shoot it. It's just too big for a proper grip and trigger reach for my medium-sized hands.

[Whiterabbit]

nice to know it's reliable and consistent :(

How do the clicks feel to you? nice and secure? like when you make an adjustment you can trust it?

The followup is what about the dot adjuster? Think there could be something loose in the dot size adjuster assembly?

[subsonic]

I have done all the testing I intend to do with it. My suggestion is stay away from the adjustable dot size Ultra-Dots and sell this one to someone wanting to whack steel plates at 7yds as fast as they can.

The clicks felt "normal" to me. Because the adjusters are so small, they've got no choice but to feel different from a large diameter adjuster like what most scopes have. Don't fool yourself into thinking the clicks on these are any specific amount per click, they simply are not. The mechanism in these is not like what is in a "scope". If you want that kind of click, you'll have to buy something else.

I wish someone made a 1-4x 30mm pistol scope with a lighted reticle and turrets like the Leupold CDS system that would survive on something like a BFR. Think an EER version of the Millet DMS scope that would survive a .475/.500,etc

[44man]

This is true, too many variables like barrel length, height above bore, etc, for most scopes to adjust the right amount. You need to spend big bucks today to even find a rifle scope that works. Years ago when it said 1/4" per click you could depend on it. Now you need a $2500 scope.
Adjustments are based on thread pitch, not the size of the adjuster. Then they install them at different points on the inner tube for each scope. Pitch goes out the window. Change the fulcrum point on the tube and it will move more or less with each click.
Years ago with target scopes the adjustment was based on the distance between bases and there was a formula. The adjustment was at the rear ring to move the whole scope. Now you move an inner tube without moving the scope. See where that leads?
Then to move a mask in front of a diode for different pictures! Just how would you get each the same? Even clicking around and going back to one does not insure it is back to the same spot.
Even most LER and rifle scopes suffer so it is not just the red dot.
Years ago it would take 1 or 2 shots to get to the bullseye. Today you bounce back and forth until you guess right.

[subsonic]

I would not put such a broad brushstroke on it. I have scopes purchased recently that click exactly, and I do mean exactly, the advertised amount and they were under $500 - some around $300. This is on rifles of course. I only had one handgun "scope" that I owned for any length of time and messed with, and it definitely did not play by the rules.

I do think that adjustable mounting is an idea that should come back - especially for handguns - if they will stay in adjustment under recoil.

[subsonic]

And I will disagree that barrel length matters with scope adjustment, as it is only the angle that matters - and length doesn't affect that.

[Whiterabbit]

Then to move a mask in front of a diode for different pictures! Just how would you get each the same? Even clicking around and going back to one does not insure it is back to the same spot.

I am really really starting to think this is exactly what is going on here. Looks like that reticle selector knob locked into a "good spot" once. After that, it didn't seem to be more reliable than irons.

[44man]

And I will disagree that barrel length matters with scope adjustment, as it is only the angle that matters - and length doesn't affect that.
Barrel length will change things. Not as much with a scope as open sights but it is there. It works almost like scope height above the bore. The higher the scope the more a click will move POI.
Go to open sights with a short barrel, same sight. One click might move POI 3" but as you lengthen the barrel it gets smaller. I always shot IHMSA with sights that went 1-2-3 and 4". 1" at 50 meters, 2" at 100, etc. As you lengthen the barrel, this is reduced and when you go shorter it gets larger.
I do not talk much with a scope. It might go from 1/2" to 5/8" per click or 1/4" to 5/16".
How you mount can make the clicks change.
Did the scope maker get it right and put the adjustments to use thread pitch?

[felix]

It's too bad one's eyeballs change over time, and sometimes they can change every second or two. Targeting is based upon what the brain interprets. What your brain sees is what you get only when all distortion types throughout the entire seeing system cancel each other. Therefore, you just gotta' compensate for the entire system by "sighting-in" the smallest objects at a selected distance. The only reliable way to do that is by moving the "scope" by whatever means using the two shot method for that exact distance. ... felix

[subsonic]

Barrel length will change things. Not as much with a scope as open sights but it is there. It works almost like scope height above the bore. The higher the scope the more a click will move POI.
Go to open sights with a short barrel, same sight. One click might move POI 3" but as you lengthen the barrel it gets smaller. I always shot IHMSA with sights that went 1-2-3 and 4". 1" at 50 meters, 2" at 100, etc. As you lengthen the barrel, this is reduced and when you go shorter it gets larger.
I do not talk much with a scope. It might go from 1/2" to 5/8" per click or 1/4" to 5/16".
How you mount can make the clicks change.
Did the scope maker get it right and put the adjustments to use thread pitch?

We will just have to agree to disagree on this point, as the way open sights work is different from a scope. There is no change in "sight radius", so there is no change related to barrel length. The only thing you change when you adjust the scope is the angle (expressed in minutes of ANGLE) in relation to the bore centerline.

:drinks:

[44man]

We will just have to agree to disagree on this point, as the way open sights work is different from a scope. There is no change in "sight radius", so there is no change related to barrel length. The only thing you change when you adjust the scope is the angle (expressed in minutes of ANGLE) in relation to the bore centerline.

:drinks:
I went down and made a test with the Mark II Rugers. One is 5" and the other is 10". I changed the scope from one to another.
I shot 25 yards and groups with each gun were 3/8 inch for 5 shots.
The short barrel hit 1/4" higher with 5 clicks up then the 10" barrel.
That is 1/2" at 50 and 1" at 100.
Is it barrel length? I believe so. Seen it many times with rifles.
Is it velocity? Not much change with a .22. Could be!
I will not make a statement either way because velocity also changes the click amounts.
The important thing is that barrel length can change per click movement, whether it is velocity or just length. The adjustment difference is still there.
I shoot a group, move the adjustments so many clicks, shoot another group and measure. I figure movement for each click and put it on paper inside the turret cap. Change to another gun or barrel length and you need to do it again.