Talk me outta this one...

[Plinkster]

I have a Savage model 25 with the most pitiful excuse for a magazine anybody has ever seen. First it's all plastic construction, I can't be sure because I've never had it apart but it wouldn't surprise me to find a plastic spring in it. Problem 2 is that it only holds 4 rounds of .223, now for the range this is fine and dandy as I usually just drop a round on top of the mag and shoot single shot style. The thing is I'd like to use it for rabbit, sage rat, or coyote hunting and a few more than 4+1 would be nice. I have no illusions of being able to cycle the bolt fast enough to empty even this tiny mag at a rabbit on the run but reloading every few shots isn't appealing to me either. In comes the inspiration: the mossberg MVP, if you haven't seen it it's a bolt rifle that uses AR-15 mags. Anyone see where I'm headed? If so head me off with any reasons I should forget this now. I have a buddy at work willing to donate a steel AR mag to my madness. So far this is just in the pipe dream what-if phase. I'm pretty handy with anything that shapes metal although that's probably a liability here as it just boosts my confidence. The factory magazine is a center feed single stack design so I realize that by altering the AR double stack mag I would likely lose capacity but I'm ok with that as if it works and I went nuts a 100 round drum type could set me up for hours of shooting. Let me say though that I really only want 20 as if it works I'm sure AR mags are cheaper than buying the dinky 4 rounders from savage if they are even available. See how I keep talking my way into this headache? I think I need help...

[Lonegun1894]

Please dont take this the wrong way, because this is just my personal opinion, but here goes. The only botl action I have ever used that had a high capacity removable magazine was a 8x57 Mauser with what a friend of mine called a "trench magazine" that I believe held 20rds. Even just carrying his rifle (he brought way too much junk to the rifle range so I was helping him carry it all) down to the firing line, that magazine kept digging into my back. This is something I can live with on a battle-type rifle as I expect to be carrying quite a bit more than just the rifle anyway if it comes down to it, but I prefer flat or rounded, or at least not sharp, bottoms on my rifles so they dont stick me anywhere. Then again, take this with a grain of salt because I like to hunt with muzzleloaders and feel well armed (for hunting) with the single shot they offer me.

[MBTcustom]

A real labor of love.
Do you have a milling machine?
if so, there is hope for this project:
If you throw 50+ hours at it.
There will be bugs to work out.
You may never get all the bugs out.
You will probably scrap out the stock and bottom metal at least once getting it right, so plan on getting an extra stock. (you can always sell it later if you get through the project with the original)
If you plan on modifying that magazine, you're probably going to scrap at least one of those too, so have an extra.
When you finally get it to feed correctly, you will probably realize that it looks like something that came out of the south end of a north bound armadillo, and will want to use the knowledge you gleaned during the build to help you redo the whole thing, only make it pretty this time.
BUT..............
You will have something unique that you built yourself.
You might just like the freaking heck out of it when its done, and wonder what took you so long to get started on this journey.
If you do a good job of it, it would be a heck of an heirloom to leave to your kids someday. (just imagine if you got something like this left to you by your grandpa!)
Its basically a good idea being a smaller sized Ruger Gunsight Carbine of sorts.

To sum-up, I hope you understand that this is something that is going to take a pretty impressive amount of time and skill with firearms, machine tools, and woodworking tools.
As long as you understand the level of project this is, (scale from 1-10 in gunsmithing I'd give it a 6) then you won't get halfway through and realize that you ruined a perfectly good gun, wasted 25 hours of precious time that could have been spent using the gun for the purpose it was intended, wasted all the money that you spent on tools and supplies that you can't use as well as you thought you could, etc etc etc.
I have been down this road many times. Most times I win, and get what I am after. However, after many projects that didn't get me as much return as I thought they would, I have come to understand several hard-to-swallow truths:
1. You are usually money ahead to pay for something that already exists, rather than build it from the ground up. Dont waste your money! It is not better to spend $1000 one nickle at a time, than to drop $800 all at once.
2. Don't be foolish with your time, or count it as worthless. Time is the most precious commodity that we have. Make for darn sure that if you spend the time to DIY, that the end result is going to be freaking awesome and incomparable to anything commercially made.
3. Cheap tools give cheap results, and that is usually the area that takes the biggest hit when someone is trying to save money by doing a DIY project. Don't buy cheap tools! They wast both your time and your money and you don't even realize it until later.
Think it through.

[Plinkster]

This rifle is very difficult to carry afield anyhow, that is a great point and one I had not considered until you mentioned it Lonegun, thank you. I'm still not sure exactly why the rifle doesn't carry well but using a standard sling was not working for me. I had more envisioned just kind of shooting from a hide or blind or maybe elevated position with it. Maybe a different sling type would work but for now I just carry it in hand. Goodsteel you bring up many very good points as well, the best of which is factoring in my time. I do not have a milling machine at home but do have access to one if I need it. After considering the ruin to the stock I could inccur I've come up with a rough plan that goes as such: first ill be contacting savage about securing a spare stock magazine hopefully in steel but I'm not holding my breath here. After acquiring a spare for the savage and the donor AR mag from my buddy I'll take some careful measurements to see if it may be possible to put a "magazine within a magazine" by removing the floor plate of the savage and the feed lips of the AR and fit them together. That way I leave the rifle unmolested for future generations and retain the ability to use standard and my own "high cap franken mags." That way if it turns out to not be feasible I've only ruined a junky plastic mag and a cheap steel AR mag without ruin to that sweet shootin little savage. This brings up two new questions though, would I have violated any laws concerning the BATFE? I can't think of why this would but they have some pretty outlandish definitions on things. The other concerns the feed arrangement, the savage is center feed and the AR is staggered. I suppose only experimentation will tell but my first notion is to leave one lip on the AR mag and insert it up inside the stock mag while leaving the feed lips on the stock mag untouched, feasible? Hopefully I'll be able to find out. You mentioned passing this rifle down Goodsteel and that is my intention. When I was younger and dumber (I still qualify as young and dumb) I sold a Browning T Bolt in .22lr that I had refinished the stock on myself with MANY hand rubbed coats. And i basically gave it away. I've always missed that rifle and after telling my wife the story her answer was simple: "you're not allowed to sell guns" that's it. So now if it enters my safe it always returns. It takes me a bit longer to acquire the firearms I want but I feel it's worth it. I know the value I attach to the few firearms that have been passed down within my family and I really want to be able to provide those memories to my future generations every time they pick up "grandpas old 1911" or whatever. Boy I can ramble! Thanks for readin.

[Lonegun1894]

Plinkster,
I have been thinking--yeah, yeah, you can quit laughing now. :) Anyway, the only way I can imagine mounting a sling without getting that mag in the way would be to mount the sling on one side of the stock or the other, depending on if you're left or right handed. As far as violating ATF rules, I wouldn't think you would have to worry about them as long as the rifle maintains at least a 16" barrel and 26" OAL, but since it doesn't sound like you're cutting anything down, I dont think they would care. Having said that, I would be more concerned with your state laws. I came very close to getting myself into hot water years ago with my FR-7, a Spanish Mauser that hasically has a Cetme front end on it, including a flash suppressor and bayonet lug, which acccording to the California Game Warden who was screaming at me to paddle over to the California side of the Colorado River ( I was stationed in AZ and fishing the Colorado River) so he could arrest me for drifting over the "centerline of the river" (funny I never saw a painted line) with a "banned assault weapon". I paddled back to where I launched from in AZ, and found a AZ Game Warden to ask what the problem had been, and was told that per CA law, my Mauser was a "assault rifle" due to having a bayonet lug and flash suppressor, and that I was very lucky that I did not obey him and paddle over as I would have comitted a felony as soon as I set foot on CA soil with that rifle in my boat. So I would check with your State instead of the ATF, although I guess calling just to be doubly safe wouldn't hurt. I know for a fact this project would be legal in Texas, but have no clue as to what Oregon law says about it.

[Plinkster]

That sling idea is exactly along the same lines I was thinking myself, might have to browse some of the tacticool products and see if I can't come up with something. And thanks for the tip on state law too!

[MBTcustom]

You dont have to go tacticool. Get a sling mount from an SMLE. They mounted in the traditional spot but with a plate held in with two screws. You could just screw a normal sling swivel stud into the side of the stock but it may come unscrewed due to the range of motion that position allows. Then again, it might not matter. However, the SMLE mount cannot come unscrewed and would ride nice and flat on the side of the stock.
Definitely check your state laws, but as far as I know, there are no BATF laws against magazine capacity, (a subject of great debate since the theater shooting).
If you need a hand with that magazine box, I may be able to help you with the milling machine.

[Artful]

Well, I have not been down this AR mag war but did do a little with a 7.62x39 mauser using single stack WASR mags.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v355/rowdyfisk/FAL/762x39MauserWASRconversion.jpg

I had originally wanted AK47 mags but discovered it was problematic with my skill set getting it to work from double feed lips and having to open up the receiver to get the lips up to the bolt - I would suggest looking at the changes MVP has had done - the spring loaded bolt lip comes to mind. Altering the existing magazine to work with the gun is going to be a problem as well because making multiple magazines will be an had to get exactly duplicated.

In the end I have created a few things that were not available when I created them, but you can purchase now in a nicer package without the aggravation of invention. So not to talk you out of it, if your looking for a fun project. But if it was me I'd sell the old and get an MVP and just have it all ready to go.

[MBTcustom]

That's pretty slick Artful!
Does it work? How long did it take you?
Oh, did you stick with 7.62X39, or are you using a different cartridge with that setup?

[Artful]

Still 7.62x39, It works - to eject well you have to work the bolt briskly - It took quite awhile as two of us work taking turns trying to get things worked out, but it finally came together pretty well. In a bolt gun it's amazing with that little cartridge will do at distance.

B-27 targets are not safe at 500 yards.

[MBTcustom]

One of the local pawn shops had a rifle that was built by Barret. 7.62 X 39 bolt gun. Color case hardened receiver, and an exhibition grade walnut stock with 30LPI checkering. Had a broken bolt stop, but even with that minor drawback, they wanted $1000 for it. I wish I could have bought it, as I always figured that a bolt gun in that caliber would be the cats meow. Never thought about getting an AK mag to work though! Cool idea, and if it shoots that good, you got a fun time anytime you want it.

[nanuk]

....
I have been thinking--yeah, yeah, you can quit laughing now. :) Anyway, the only way I can imagine mounting a sling without getting that mag in the way would be to mount the sling on one side of the stock or the other, depending on if you're left or right handed. ....


as it should be... the Germans had it right on the Mauser that I had!

whoever put the sling on the bottom was either an idiot, or didn't carry the rifle with the sling, only using it as a shooting aid

[Plinkster]

Thanks for the info guys, looks like this project will be shelved for a bit though. I just picked up 2 rifles and a shotgun in a package deal and will probably be tinkering those to fit my style before I make it to the savage. So many projects, so little time...