Let's talk lathe collets

[Char-Gar]

A year from now, I will retire and I want to set up my small lathe and do the "Buckshot" thing. Now here is my concern and question

My lathe is a very nice Logan 9 X 18. Collet capacity (3at) is limited to 1/2 inch which is too small to reloading die work. What to do?

1) I can buy a Bison over the nose collet chuck for 5c collets, but the price of such a gizmo runs $400 to $500 plus a 1.5 X 8 (spindle nose) adapter for another $130.00. Now throw in the price of some collets. Well add that up and it is more than I paid for the lathe!!!!

2) I can also do the work, the old fashion way, by holding one end of the stock in a 4 jaw chuck (which I have) and the back end in a steady rest. I don't have a steady rest, but I can get one for a whole bunch less than the collet chuck, adapter, and collets.

I like the speed and precision of collets, but if there any reason the chuck and steady rest won't do as well. I know set up will be time consuming if it is done right.. but I have far more time and money. I also have a good amount of patience with such things.

Advise and counsel please... but no buy a bigger lathe stuff!!! If I had the money, I would have a new South Bend toolroom lathe right now...no such luck.

[fishhawk]

well...being i am a cheap SOB at times think i would just use the 4 jaw chuck and rest if you don't mind dealing with the dial indacator thats what i do with my atlas lathe

[redneckdan]

I prefer the 4 jaw over collets. I use a collet lathe at work. When it works, its okay but when it doesn't its a night mare.

[quasi]

You can buy a kit of castings and make your own spindle nose collet chuck. It will take 5-c collets. These kits are very high quality castings and have excellent instructions and prints.

http://www.statecollegecentral.com/metallathe/index.html

[Jon K]

Charger,

Both, you need both 4 jaw and 5c collets to have the versatility. You will always find need for one or the other. Don't limit yourself or tie your hands behind your back- Can't get the job done like that.
Look around, lots of 5 stuff for sale used. Might eve be able to find a steady rest used also.

Just my $.02 worth, Enjoying retirement & learning to live on less.

Jon

:castmine:- 2- :Fire:

[IcerUSA]

Been a few for sale latley on evilBay, rests and collet setups, if you don't mind going there and it might take awhile to get a deal tho

[Sam]

Get in some serious practice and make your own collet chuck setup on the lathe.

Sam

[Buckshot]

.............Charger, you can make a 5C collet adaptor utilizing a drawbar for your lathe. The hole through the spindle wouldn't allow you to do much "Through the Spindle" stuff anyway so the drawbar isn't a negative really. It would also allow you to release and replace parts 'On the Fly'. You'd need to make sure you bought 5C's internally threaded (at the rear), which is common anyway. But some are not.

You'd make the collect adaptor yourself on your lathe. For the adaptor body you'd want a piece of good steel (4140, 8620, 1045). Ideally the angled face to close the collet would be case hardened, but might not really have to be, so we'll use common tempered Rc 28-32, 4140. You'd want a piece of 2" OD and 3" Plus the length of the spindle thread, PLUS a bit for cleanup.

I'm not really chicken as I've cut nice internal threads, but if it was me, I'd take it to a machine shop to have it threaded. You will need to supply them the info they need. This would be the register depth ie: where does it register, the spindle nose or the area behind the threads on the face of the spindle. Might not be a bad idea to take a chuck along so they can check the threads, etc.

The thing is you don't have a steady, and a piece of 2" OD steel that will have to be center drilled, drilled, bored, and then threaded that is sticking out 2-3" beyond the jaws of your chuck just isn't optimal. You could go REAL easy and take lots of LIGHT cuts though, if you want to do it yourself.

So however it gets done, it's now threaded for the spindle nose. Grease the threads and snug that puppy down on the spindle nose, using a strap wrench. Or better yet, say you'd used a piece of 2.5" OD material you could drill a shallow 1/4" hole close to the spindle end, and make a simple spanner wrench to tighten it down.

Make a skim cut down it's length so it's turning true to your spindle on it's OD for balance and appearance. Step drill to maybe 1/2" ID. Then (without using a bunch of dimensions here) begin boring ops to bring it to 'JUST" the OD of a 5C collet. Next up will be to use the compound to cut the angle at the mouth, to close the collet. Finally a hole will need to be drilled and tapped to accept a setscrew which will go through the body. The 5C collets have a notch like a keyway for the setscrew to go into to keep the collet from possibly spinning .

You now have a 5C collet holder basicly made on YOUR lathe that will be as accurate as your spindle is, at the nose of the collet chuck. Logan held spindle run out (from the factory) to not exceed .0005" at 12" from the spindle nose. If you think this might be something you want to do, we can discuss collet closers later.

...................Buckshot

[KCSO]

The Home shop Machinest magazine had this as an article last year you might try and get a copy.

[R.M.]

I ran a Hardinge lathe for many years, and just loved the collets. There are times when they can't be used and had to use a chuck, but for standard dimensioned stock, collets are the way to go.

R.M.

[Buckshot]

.............Also, if the spindle has a MT2 or MT3 taper you could utilize TG collets or ER32 or ER40's. You'd just have to stop and re-start the lathe to change out work pieces each time.

.................Buckshot

[Char-Gar]

Guy thanks for the info.

Buckshot... I never heard of ER collects, so I did some internet looking. From what I able to learn, the ER collets fit into a holder and are held in place with a spanner/wrench. You can get the holder with a Morse Taper shank and the whole gizmo is closed with some sort of drawbar...right? Most ER stuff is directed toward the guy with milling machines.

The ER40 collets can be had up to a little over one inch (25 mm) but the ER30 collects top out at 20mm. A holder with an MT shank can be had for either.

My little Logan 400 has an MT3 spindle. So it looks like the ER40 collets would be the way to go.

Now the problem.. I have spent about four hours searching the web for an MT3 collet holder for ER40 collets. All but one of the places are in UK. The one US based place I can find is Grizzly which sell a MT3 holder and set of ER40 collets for about $198.00 which is doable.

I understand this Grizzly stuff is not of the highest quality, but I can find any such thing on MSC-Enco or other places. I guess I just dont understand the right terms and tech speak to find it. The more I look, the more bumfuzzled I get.

Can anybody eplain the ER collets stuff to me in simple english and stear me to a place I can get such stuff. I need more than just check so and so company as I can't find what I want when I go to this big industrial supply sites.

Thanks for any help.. Charles

[floodgate]

Chargar:

Actually, Grizzly imports their stuff from the same sources as ENCO and Harbor Freight, but are more selective about quality and offer a good warranty. You're probably OK to go with their chuck and collets, if the price is - as you say - doable.

floodgate

[Buckshot]

Chargar:

Actually, Grizzly imports their stuff from the same sources as ENCO and Harbor Freight, but are more selective about quality and offer a good warranty. You're probably OK to go with their chuck and collets, if the price is - as you say - doable.

floodgate

...........If you have a problem with anything from Grizzly, they'll bend over backwards to make it right. Call their customer service dept and ask about the ER collet's accuracy. It will probably be something like .0005" TIR at the collet nose. Way better then most any chuck unless it's a 4 jaw independant or an 'Adjust -Tru" type, but 100 times faster :-).

I have a set of ER 32's and ER 40's, both in MT3 collets. The 11" Logan has a odd 2* internal spindle nose taper but Logan offers a MT3 insert, so that's what I got for dead centers, endmill holders, etc & etc. Made my own drawbar. 5C collets have a very narrow clamping range, or they won't clamp correctly full length. The ER's (and TG's and DA's) will clamp fully from one size to the next, so that's nice.

ER's can be used in a lathe as easily as a mill. Just have to make a drawbar. I think both my chucks are threaded 1/2-13.

.............Buckshot

[Char-Gar]

OK Guys... I think I have the direction I need to go. I can go with the ER40 collet set up as cheap or cheaper than I can buy a steady rest. My lathe came with some tooling, but no steady. At this time that will not be a high priority. If, I can't do it between centers, using a chuck or collets, then I am not likely to do it for a time.

I doubt if this machine will be every used for anything but for making reloading stuff. I am one trick pony and don't have much interest in anything beyond good food and cast bullet shooting.

It has been many years since I ran a lathe, but it will come back to me.

My lathe came with:

Three jaw scroll chuck
Four jaw independent chuck
Tail stock drill (Jacobs) chuck
All the tool post holders, cut offs and knurling tools
3AT collet holder
Headstock sleeve/adapter to hold dead center.
Face plate
Lathe dog
Palmgren milling attatchment
All the gears.

I also have about a dozen drill bits and reamers with MT shanks for the tailstock and a good quanity of bits, ground and unground, boring bars, etc. It also came with a dial indicator, but it appears to be dead.

The lathe is 1947 vintage, but all orginal paint is very good condition, and the bed, ways and everything else is tip top shape. It belonged to an old gent on Long Island and just used it in his basement shop for hobby work. It had sat unused for many years when I bought it in 2000 for $700.00.

So, to get going I need to pick up.

1) ER40 MT3 holder and collets

2) Thread dial indicator..saddle is D&T but no indicator. Logan sells these for a dear price, so I am going to watch Ebay. I saw one last week but let it go. Probably a mistake.

3) Carriage stop

4) I should also get a spindle nose cap/protector to keep from buggering up the spindle nose threads when using the collets.

5) New dial indicator

I realize I will need other bits, drills, reamers, oil, new belts etc. etc., but do the above list about cover the basics?

You guys are great.

[Buckshot]

..............Charger:

1) Make your own threading dial.

http://www.fototime.com/358E1CBF55A374B/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/E96B6C4230D9156/standard.jpg

I made this one and it was the very first 'thing' I made when I got my lathe. I have the original, but I felt it was small and kind of hidden off to the right of the apron. I bought a new gear with a slight helical thread to match the pitch of the leadescrew, so the threading dial body could be straight up and down.

The shaft is a 1/4" drill blank but you could use 1/4" drill rod. The body is merely 1" gas pipe I turned the scab off on the OD. The end pieces are aluminum, as is the face of the dial. The numbers were put on with the Dremel and a dental burr :-). Logan sells the gears, but straight and helical cut for I think it was $24 IIRC. I swore I was going to make a nicer bolt deal, but the ugly welded on washer is still there!

If you would like it I'd be glad to send you my old threading dial, a 1/4" drill blank and 2 pieces of aluminum. That way you can make your own or maybe modify the old one. You'd have a couple ways to go anyway. Just PM your addy and I'll get it out next week.

2) Make your own nose protector.

After you get the threading dial taken care of, this will be a snap.

One of the best things you can get for your lathe would be a QC tool holder setup if you are using the old lantern type with the Armstrong tool holders. You'd need the AXA size and a piston type (vs the wedge) is just fine.

http://www.fototime.com/6A7B4820DA9AEED/standard.jpg

These 5 holders are setup for producing lube-size die blanks. You can slip them on and off the holder block in seconds. Unlike the lantern type that has to be re-centered each time, once set these stay set! Starting from the front these are set up to:

1) Face
2) Turn the OD
3) Turn the angle on the base
4) Turn the 'O' ring groove and the old style setscrew groove at the same time. Merely 2 pieces of drill bit shank in a piece of 1/2" keystock.
5) Parting off blade.

About the only other thing I can spot that you don't have, and really need is a good live center for the tailstock.

If your carriage doesn't have wipers, you need them badly. If it does, check the felts as they may be dead and as hard as rock, and no longer doing their job. If so, let me know and I'll send some wiper felt along with the thread dial if you want. Your tailstock should also have wipers. Normally they don't. Simple to do. I'll take some photo's this evening and post them so you can see.

ENCO is a good place to shop for stuff as they have good prices, especially when stuff is on sale. Plus they will have a monthly "Free Shipping" code which is a BIG plus! Especially and most obviously for heavy bulky stuff like oil. Speaking of oil you need a gallon of way oil and a gallon of spindle oil, plus maybe some open gear grease for your change gears. The way & spindle oil run about $14/gallon from ENCO and it's a good time to use the free shipping code!

If you don't have one, you need a good pump oiler with a tapered brass nose on a flex spout to oil the ball and cup oilers. For the way oil, use a chip brush.

..............Buckshot

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/92EFB7CD09DA01B/standard.jpg

You can see the wipers on the tailstock in this photo. Merely 1/8 x 3/4 aluminum. I D&T'd the base of the tailstock 8-32 and used buttonhead socket screws to attach'em (front and back :-)). In the foreground is the cross slide I use to mount the Palmgren milling vise to. It has it's new aluminum bronze nut installed.

I put in a new cross slide screw, below:

http://www.fototime.com/1B59FD18EAAFB0E/standard.jpg

The old one is on the left and is 7/16" OD. The new one is 5/8" 8-). It's accurate to .003" in 12" of movement. This new one should last the rest of my life!

These are the ER40 and 32 collets.

http://www.fototime.com/9934433C592D797/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/93F71909545DD96/standard.jpg

You unscrew the nose (black piece) and snap the collet into it, then thread it back on the chuck, insert the workpiece and tighten down the nosepiece with the spanner wrench. On the back of the chuck before the MT you can see a flat on top and bottom. I suppose it's for a wrench so you can hold it while tightening the drawbar or the nosepiece. In the kits I got you get the nose spanner, but this other wrench wasn't provided. I've never found it was necessary.

..................Buckshot

[db2]

Opinions, well we all know what they are, so I will try not to stink the place up to bad.:)
Do not worry about a collet set-up for now. Put your money into a good steady rest. You will get more bang for your buck. I feel that the only advantage to using a spring collet set-up is for production work. It was said above in another post about not limiting your options. I know, you only have plans to work with reloading stuff. But, this is how it works, something breaks, or you need a part to put something together you will end up turning to your lathe. Here is something else to think about. If you are going to do any type of rework, an independent jaw chuck is the only way to go. I had an issue just last night, a grinder did not set enough tailstock pressure and knocked a part off the center. It tore the center up and the center hole in the part. In order to save the part I loaded it into an independent jaw lathe chuck dialed the part in, dialed the center drill in and recut the center hole. Because of the surface features of the part and, the location of the center hole there was now way a collet chuck was going to work. I feel your three jaw should hold within .01-.015 runout and that is plenty good enough for bar stock work, just make sure you are using a little bit bigger stock dia. than your part.

Now, as for explaining ER style collets to you, I am not sure what you are asking. AF, ER, and TG style collets snap into the cap. Then the cap tightens down on the holder. A problem we have where I work, is that there are certain individuals who think that they need to tighten the cap so tight that they will break the center part of the cap (I deal with a lot of monkey button pushers). OK, for the most part concentricity is .0005 at the nose of semi quaility collets. High quality, well, here is an example. In a few weeks the CNC tool grinders will try out a new collet set-up that is suppost to hold 1 millionth NOT at the nose, but 2.5 times the dia. of the collet size in FRONT of the nose. They are suppost to be the best on the market. I guess we will find out. MSC has ER 40's and MT3 holders (page 1577) in the 2006 catalog.

The next thing I would spend my money on is what Buckshot said, "a QC tool holder". They really make ones life easier.

Only after you have made your other accessorizes would I spend the money on a collet set-up.

I am sure I muddyed up the waters some. There is enough experience here you can get squared up in short order.

db2

[leftiye]

Not wanting to irritate buckshot at all (and those are muy hermosa collets). I got a collet closer with my lathe, bought some collets. My experience is as DB2 said, I very seldom use them. I do find use for a steady rest somewhat more often. (anybody know where to get one for a 15" LeBlond?). The collets are nice, but can be done without, (try that with a steadyrest?). Unless you can put long stuff throught the headstock, you're stuck. Vote plus 1 for quickchange toolpost.

[Char-Gar]

Thanks guys for all the input. I have learned much from this thread and have made a hard copy for my files. Buckshot.. Thanks for all of those great photos, they will be a big help.

One quirky thing about me is that I truly enjoy doing things the slow and hard way. For some reason, I find the time spent in detail work very relaxing. I inlet barrels using nothing but a pair of Jerry Fisher round scrapers. Now that is the hard way and very slow, but I enjoy the work. If I need to drill a hole in wood, I reach for the brace and bits even though a drill press or electric hand drill is close at hand.

Finding the quick or convenient way to do things has never held much interest for me. I would probably have a spring wound computor if they made such a thing. Electricity in general is still a mystery to me and a necessary evil in this world.

Technology has made us live faster and do more, but it has not helped us to live better.

[leftiye]

Chargar, IMHO there are at least two types of people (oh well so much for trying to sound sagacious). There are those who like my wife to whom anything that slows down the process is intolerable, and there are those like us who realize that if we succumb to this temptation SOME THANGS will not turn out well. We end up becoming just a little compulsive (don't like that anal characterization, Freud didn't know much anyway). Results are important enough that the process IS necessary.

In machine work you may (plan on it) find yourself making one of these, so that you can make one of those, so that you can use it to make that, etc. and the final object (the one that you started out to do) may be 20 steps down the line. Also when you make something, remember that if you screw up ANY ONE step you get to start over. Ain't it fun?

[db2]

Hey Chargar, I want to expand leftiye's idea in to the machine shop.

Were I work there are three types. 1) The putton pusher. They only know green button starts, red button stops, big red button stops in one big red hurry. This is just about all they can do. 2) The machine operator. They can set-up, tear down, and limited problem solving if there is a problem. 3) The machinist. They can just about do anything, as long as a sketch is at least written down on a napkin.

We have a CNC engine lathe that nobody whats to run. People get torqued off when I have to assign them to it. I have found out that for the most part, they do not have a good understanding of basic machine shop practices, ie using a steady rest, dialing in a part or a tool, knowing which operation to do first. If there is not a setup sheet with detailed instructions on what to do, they stumble and quit trying, and start crying about the machine.

There is nothing wrong with doing things the "slow and hard way". After a little time it is no longer "hard" to do, just kinda slow.

db2

[Char-Gar]

Guys.. That helps clarify the way I think and do things. If I don't enjoy the process, then I am not much interested in the final outcome. The outcome is of course important, but so if the process. When I look at something I have done, I not only take pride in what was done, but also how was done.

Years ago, I new and old German gunsmith who trained in Austria before WWII though a lengthy apprentice program. I spent time in his shop and his only power equipment was a drill press and a bench grinder. I once watched him, cut the threads on a new rifle barrel with a file! Can you imagine that? A stinking file!

I don't aspire to that kind of skill, but at least I know it can be done. His name was Bill Helms. He was a WWII vet (German army) and is probably long dead and buried. A hell of a fellow! He could do metal, wood and engrave as well, not many like that anymore.

I once owned the rifle he made for his final exam. It was a Mauser 98 in the metric version of 228 Savage. It was fully engraved and stocked in the typical Tutonic style. I had to pass it on during a period of high "economic stress".

IIRC finding bullets for it was hard. I had some old 75 grain Ackley bullets and Ralph Sisk still made them by hand. This was about 1961.

Sorry for the trip down memory lane..but the memory of those days are very sweet. Fine rifles, fine friends, and some very fine young women.