My dad gave me a pistol tonight.

[MBTcustom]

To date, I have been given two firearms in working condition. When I was in college my dad bought me my first high power rifle, a marlin 30-30.
Tonight, he gave me another one.
Here it is:
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_3558_zps24e8b0f3.jpg
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_3560_zps5610f7a3.jpg
To say I am pretty pleased is the understatement of the year. I have long wanted one of these original smiths. This one is chambered in 45ACP. It has been refinished, but that does not matter to me one whit.
It is marked "1937" under a star emblem that has almost been rubbed out when it was refinished. This is the third example of this vintage Smith that I have held, so I have some research to do to find out what the original mark looked like. Here is a closeup:
http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l481/goodsteel/IMG_3559_zps0db71aaa.jpg
I can't wait to shoot this piece.
The throats measure 458, and the groove diameter is .452. It is very tight (although I am going to have to stretch the hand a little as it wont quite lock up if I thumb the hammer slowly.) The cylinder gap is .002-.004 by the looks of it.
There is very little to no play in the crane, so nobody was swinging the cylinder shut hollywood style. The endshake is very tight also.
All in all, everything I expect from a good Smith and Wesson pistol. This one is going to serve me very well.

[subsonic]

Nice old gun, even if it is refinished.

I always wondered what would happen if a person installed a .457" barrel on a gun with oversize .458" chambers?

[Trey45]

It's a Brazilian contract, you have a real shooter there, I love mine.

http://picturearchive.gunauction.com/3861150043/9641370/s&w_m1937_brazilian.2%20001.jpg_thumbnail1.jpg

That's not my Brazilian, but it is a good clear picture of the stamping.

[smoked turkey]

Tim: That is a special revolver for many reasons. I don't need to tell you that. I know you will greatly enjoy it. My dad gave me his old S&W K-22 many years ago. He has been gone since 1996. I still miss him but when I get the old Smith out I am a little closer to him and the memories flood in. I wouldn't sell it for a small farm in Texas. You know what I mean.

[MBTcustom]

This one gets better. This gun was actually owned by my uncle who passed away. This gun and several others were given to my dad. So it has quite a bit of family history.
The barrel is as bright as any I have ever seen. No rust, no pitting, this one is going to be a shooter.
I just worry about the large differeance between the throats and the groove diameter. Never had one that was actually over what its supposed to be. At first blush, I would think that is does not matter, but I don't know.

[Lefty SRH]

Don't worry about the oversized throats. Family heirlooms are excluded from driving tacks, there's a special clause for them. I'm confident that nice will shoot well! Let us know how she does.

[Jim]

Nice, Tim! I know you're proud to own that!

[Char-Gar]

Does the handgun have a number on the backstrap?

There were two contracts between Smith and Wesson and the Brazilian Navy. The first was before WWII and 25,000 units of all new production handguns. The second was after WWII and were a mixture of left over 1917 parts and new parts. The first contact was numbered 1 -25,000 on the backstrap and the second was not numbered.

These handguns were released for sale by the Brazilian goverment about 25 years ago and came into this country in bulk at very low bargin prices. They seem to have gone up quite a bit in value since that time.

I have owned three and still own two.

All three of mine have run .455-456 in the cylinder throats. This is the same size as the Smith and Wesson DA 45 ACP handguns since 1917 until 1989. Even the much touted 1955 Target Model had throats that run this size.

I have never measured such a pistol with .458 throats and I have measured several dozen. Try those measurments again.

[Dan Cash]

My Brazillian is one of the more accurate revolvers that I own. Have not measured the throats but use .453-.454 bullets.
Dan

[MBTcustom]

I have never measured such a pistol with .458 throats and I have measured several dozen. Try those measurments again.
Will do. It was late, and I just used the nibs of my calipers. I doubt I would have missed it by that much, but I could have read it large by a couple thou. It certainly isn't .453 though, which is what I expected.
Thanks for the history lesson Char, very interesting!

[Char-Gar]

These Smith and Wesson DA sixguns in 45 ACP are a passion of mine for some unknown reason. I just like opening the cylinder and droping in a moon clip of six rounds.

When I first started shooting hanguns back in the late 50's, the US Goverment was dumping it remaining stores of Smith and Colt 1917s on the market and they could be had just a few bucks. Being a kid with just a few bucks in his jeans, I jumped on them.

Today I am down to just one Colt 1917, one Smith 1917, two Smith Brazilians, two Smith 1955 Target Models and one 625. There was a time when I had three times that many.

My current favorite "packing pistol" is a 1955 Target Model in picked up in Farmington, New Mexico about 24 years ago. Somebody had chopped the barrel to 4" to use as a Mountain Lion gun for horseback hunting. For some uknown reason, the lockwork had been changed out for a mix of parts and the trigger pull both SA and DA was awful. I went though my parts box and found some well mated parts and got it running as smooth as silk.

For a reason I don't understand, these old Smith sixguns don't seem to mind the large charge hole throats. They just have an inbred desire to shoot and shoot well. These handguns can take undersized bullets that run down that loooong throat before slaming into the barrel forcing cone and still shoot very well. It seems to violent every rule we think we know about what makes for an accurate sixgun.

There pre-war Smith do have a very shallow and short barrel forcing cone. Often it just litttle more than a bevel on the rear of the barrel. I have recut this to a smooth 11 degree cone on all of mine and I think it helps.

There is just so much that can be done about the heavy DA trigger pull without creating unreliable ignition. There is a long reach for the hammer nose to hit the primer and this requires an industrial strength spring. Folks that like to jack with springs like a K or other N frame soon find out they pistol won't pop primers like it should.

In 1989 Smith and Wesson brought out the 625 in 45 ACP. It was a stainless 5" underluged N frame sixgun that shot like a house-a-fire. I bought the first one to hit West Texas and still have it. I have never owned a more accurate sixguns.

With the 625 Smith made a couple of changes to the cylinder throats, one good and one bad. The good one is they reduced the diamter of the throats to .453. The bad one is they put a tapered leade on the throats that prevent the use of ACP cases without clips. This is when shooting bowling pins off a board was all the rage, and this pistol was put together with that in mine. With full moon clips and the tapered leade, it loaded so fast it was amazing.

I forgot to mention in my first post on the Brazilian Navy pistols that the second post war contract was for another 25,000 pistols. Over the years Brazil also produced some replacement barrels for these pistols that found their way onto the market as well. I managed to snag one that is still new in the paper. No it isn't for sale.

Even though the pistol is marked 1937 (date of the contract) the pistols were not delivered until 1938-39.

Enjoy your pistol. Just keep the loads to factory/military 45 ACP level and it will run for years. These pre-war pistols won't take hot roding!

[MBTcustom]

Again, very interesting!
You are saving me a lot of research.
Although I have been known to do a little judiciuse (and responsible) modifying of the springs in later S&W pistols, I am usually just trying to get the crummy factory trigger to be as smooth as these old ones are. I have always been impressed by the smooth operation of these old guns, and this one is no exception. Its as smooth as an ice-skaters blade going into a triple lutz. Lighter is not always better. Its all about control, and this gun delivers that better than any other DA platform IMHO.

Just keep the loads to factory/military 45 ACP level and it will run for years. These pre-war pistols won't take hot roding!
I was going to ask if heavier boolits could be used with this pistol, like a 250grain semi-wad-cutter? I guess I should stick to 200's and 230's eh?

[MBTcustom]

I wonder if you could steer me in the right direction for full moon clips? There were two that came with the pistol, but the previous owner (I can only assume it was my uncle) ground off the tips that hold the cartridges, so its a real trick to get the blessed things into the gun along with 6 cartridges. I don't care what the cost is (within reason) but I would like to get good quality clips.
Any suggestions?
I found Wilson Combat full moons on MidwayUSA.

[azrednek]

I accumulated numerous moon clips by going through the boxes of junk and loose parts at gunshows. I bought and sold a bunch of the Brazilian imports via Davidson's while they were still in North Carolina. The most common problem was a weak mainspring.

Many of my customers brought them back to show off after some customizing. Some were real pieces of art others a joke. I cherry picked two for myself. One I re-blued, added factory S&W target grips, trigger job and adjustable sights. The other I left alone. I recently traded one away getting a S&W 38/44 in a straight across trade.

In lots of a dozen I was buying these for less than $90.00 per piece. Wish I had hanged on to a dozen rather than just two.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/1917-1.jpg
This is what it looked like when I traded it. I removed and kept the target grips and sights. Hated to see it go but how can one possibly resist a 38/44
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/1917-a.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/1917-c.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/1917-b.jpg
Of all I bought and sold out of my uniform store. The one above was by far the best condition of all. Most were in terribly sad looking shape but shot just fine. A couple of lemons I got with mechanical problems. I learned Davidson's Warranty is no joke. They swapped them without any questions. I got a phone call and an apology for one they sent with a swollen barrel. I suspect the customer was responsible. Couldn't believe I or even the Davidson's employee that pulled the order would have missed it.

[Ilwil]

I've sold or traded a lot of guns in my time, and I regret very few of them. One though was my Brazilian Navy. It was scary accurate, locked up like a bank vault, 3-4 holes would cut each other at 25 yards. I could never reconcile myself to the finish being mostly gone. They are most definitely keepers and shooters in any condition.

[Char-Gar]

In regard to heavier bullets. Elmer Keith designed 452423 for the Auto Rim cartridge to be used in these 45 SA sixguns. It will run between 230 and 245 grains depending on alloy. I shoot them in either AR cases or ACP cases with clips in my post-war pistols. It is OK to shoot them in pre-war pistols, just tone the velocity down to less than 800 fps, but they won't shoot to the fixed sights.

I picked up one Brazilian with excellent metal although somebody had attempted to cold blue it with bad results. I sent in back to Smith and Wesson for a factory reblue. I got a call from them saying they didn't want to refinsh a historic firearm. When I asked them to go get the pistol and look at it, they saw the finish had already been tampered with and agreed to reblue it. It is one of the prettyest handguns I have ever seen.

Some day I will post a pic of it.

I also have a 38/44 but didn't have to trade a Brazilian to get it. I picked it up on a Odessa Texas pawn shop in 1992 for $140.00. It had a flaking aftermarket nickle plating job on it. I had it denickled and blued with a service type blue for $80.00. It is a great shooting pistol as well.

[MBTcustom]

Some day I will post a pic of it.
Today is a good day!

[azrednek]

In regard to heavier bullets. Elmer Keith designed 452423 for the Auto Rim cartridge to be used in these 45 SA sixguns.

The one I traded wouldn't shoot .452 lead worth a tinker's darn. Sizing castings that dropped large enough to .454 or jacketed 230gr hardball shot just fine. I assume it was likely due to wear. The 80+ year old guy I traded with uses it as his car and nightstand gun. He shot factory Winchester Silver-Tips on moon clips and claimed despite the probable worn bore. Shot just fine for him.

I know it is a bit off subject but you should have heard the ol'timer complain about the price of the ammo. He told me after we swapped, he hadn't bought 45ACP Silver-Tips since the 60's. Far as he was concerned, the Silver-Tips were the only ammo he'd stake his life on.

[5shotbfr]

my 1917 smith just loves 250 grain boolits , but like azreneck it wouldnt shoot anything smaller then .454 dia worth a **** .

one of my fav pistols to shoot

[MBTcustom]

The throats are truly .458.

[Catshooter]

Nice piece Tim. I too love the 45 ACP sixgun.

Four five eight is truly huge. I'd be amazed if it will shoot lead. I bought a 25-5 Smith (45 Colt) which are widely know for their large throats. They measured .456. I bought a Lyman 454424 that drops a .457 boolit. I size them to .456 and they shoot wonderfully down the .452 bore.

.458 is huge, but I bet if you dig you'll be able to find a mould that throws 'em big. I imagine if I Beagled my 454424 I could get it to .458 or 9 without too much trouble.

One of my Smiths is a pre-war sixgun that I really enjoy. Not wanting to hot rod the old boy, I used HS 6 to work up a 850 fps or so load with the 454424. I wanted a lower pressure spike with a more gentle run up so as to not pound my gun.

Oh, the best place I've ever found for full moon clips is Ranch Products. Great outfit.


Cat

[Love Life]

I wonder if you could steer me in the right direction for full moon clips? There were two that came with the pistol, but the previous owner (I can only assume it was my uncle) ground off the tips that hold the cartridges, so its a real trick to get the blessed things into the gun along with 6 cartridges. I don't care what the cost is (within reason) but I would like to get good quality clips.
Any suggestions?
I found Wilson Combat full moons on MidwayUSA.

Tim,

Try this link. It is for Ranch Products. They make outstanding moon clips and for a good price. I bought 100 full moons for a 625-8 back in 2007 and I think it ran me about $35.00.

[MBTcustom]

Nice piece Tim. I too love the 45 ACP sixgun.

Four five eight is truly huge. I'd be amazed if it will shoot lead. I bought a 25-5 Smith (45 Colt) which are widely know for their large throats. They measured .456. I bought a Lyman 454424 that drops a .457 boolit. I size them to .456 and they shoot wonderfully down the .452 bore.

.458 is huge, but I bet if you dig you'll be able to find a mould that throws 'em big. I imagine if I Beagled my 454424 I could get it to .458 or 9 without too much trouble.

One of my Smiths is a pre-war sixgun that I really enjoy. Not wanting to hot rod the old boy, I used HS 6 to work up a 850 fps or so load with the 454424. I wanted a lower pressure spike with a more gentle run up so as to not pound my gun.

Oh, the best place I've ever found for full moon clips is Ranch Products. Great outfit.


Cat

Not to worry, I modify molds for people all the time. Opening up the base to .458 is no problem.
I may also look into a HB wadcutter or round nose for this one. Seems like a really good idea.
Thanks to you and Dick for the ranch dog link. I will order some up.

[azrednek]

Besides moon clips you will definitely want a de-mooner. Doing it by hand is tedious, time consuming and eventually leads to bending the metal clips. If I can find it I'll post a picture of home made tool. If you have a grinding wheel it can be made in a few minutes and will cost less than 2-bits.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/moon-1.gif

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/moon-2-1.gif

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/moon-5.gif

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/moon-4.gif

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/moon-3.gif

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/moon-2.gif

I saw some like it at a gunshow and rather than pay his ridicules asking price. Made my own. I bent the pipe strap around an old tire iron then ground the notch in it. After grinding use a file to knock off burrs and smooth it out.

[MtGun44]

I have a really beat up looking (but pristine on the inside) Brazilian. It was a very
mediocre shooter until I started pumping up the loads. I was reading Elmer's comments
on them and he recommends his boolit over 7.5 gr of Unique which is VERY, VERY hot.
Elmer blew up more than a few guns in his day, and I have not gone that far. I have
approached it very gingerly and each hotterl load moved closer to POA and a tighter
group. Mine scatters comm hard cast .452 H&G 68s into 12" patterns at 25 yds with mild powder
charges, but with a large enough (.454-455, throats are .455-456) 452423 clone from
MP, it now shoots pretty well with hotter loads. 452423s at moderate loads with
.452 or .453 diam were running into about 4", beats 12" a lot but still pretty crummy.

Big throats need big boolits. My Colt 1917 has .456 throats and will not chamber a
455-423 (MP mold) larger than .455, does well but not yet fantastic. Both are 'works
in progress'. That's a good old gun. BTW, with my hands the left rear corner of the
steel frame just above the grips hits the sharp edge right on my thumb knuckle joint
and after 6 shots of factory J-bullet loads those grips HAD to come off of it.

For unloader use a piece of 1/2" copper water pipe with a filed or milled end - leaving
about 45-60 degrees untouched and cut the rest about .060 lower. Set into a wooden
handle, and use a piece long enough to contain 6 cases. Slide over a case, twist, then
slide over the next case and twist, repeat until all empties are 'demooned' and then dump
the tube into your brass bag.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

Skeeter Skelton wrote an article on souping up a Colt 1917 entitled "Poors Man's Magnum". Some time after he got paid for the article he managed to split the cylinder with his Keith load of 260 grain bullet over 7.5 Unique.

He had Bob Scone the founder of MMC (then in Deming New Mexico) to rebarrel and recylinder it to 44 Special. I owned that pistol for about 45 minutes one time. I traded for it at a El Paso gun show and some guy who had gone to the bank to get money to buy the pistol came boiling in looking for it with money in his hand. I made a nice profit for my 45 minutes of ownership.

The point to this little missive is you will break you pistol if you try and go much beyond the loads they were designed for. Awh...go ahead and do it. Somebody can use the parts you have left.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
That is one of the joys of being a dad. Equipping a son to enter and continue life properly supplied to be able to respond to needy conditions. I think the Massi have a custom of giving each son a good lion spear before they start out into life. My two son's each received a 12 guage shotgun, a caliber .308 Mauser rifle and a caliber .357 mag revolver. Just could not find any good supplier of lion spears so I went with the next best thing.
Mike in ILL.

[Dutchman]

These were first imported into the U.S. in 1988 being 51 years old (1937+50 yr = curio-relic rule).

This one is a commercial 2nd Model Hand Ejector with 3rd Model HE patent date on the barrel. S/n is 195xxx as I recall. It also has Brazilian number on the grip backstrap.

So far the best accuracy I've gotten has been with .452" HG68. It's very accurate, one big hole. I've shot Hornady 250 gr SWC swaged .452" but they weren't nearly as accurate as HG68.

Being that this is a REVOLVER you should grant it the dignity of having a RIM on the cartridge :). I load .45 AutoRim [nearly] exclusively. Grips are Pachmayr Presentation, small size.

http://images109.fotki.com/v786/photos/4/28344/9895637/DSCF3939sw-vi.jpg
http://images20.fotki.com/v502/photos/4/28344/9895637/nuswb1-vi.jpg
http://images15.fotki.com/v587/photos/4/28344/9895637/nuswb7-vi.jpg
http://images46.fotki.com/v274/photos/4/28344/9895637/nuswb10-vi.jpg

[375H&HGuy]

You are indeed lucky. I have one of these and it is a joy to shoot. I use my standard 200 grain semi wadcutter load I use in my other 45's along with the moon clips. Congratulations.

[MBTcustom]

I called Ranch Products and talked to that feller for about 30 minutes. He is a second generation moon clip stamper outer and proud of it!
I ordered up sixteen of those full moon clips.
I'm going to have to shoot this pistol this weekend. Work will have to wait!

[tek4260]

Have ya'll seen the pictures of the shortened ones in AH? I believe the editor has a few chopped ones and I have to resist looking at GB every time I pick up the magazines.

[PS Paul]

Man, I have been hangin' on every word on this thread!

So this all begs the question(s): WHEN you gonna shoot it ? and will you take pictures of the results, please?

Darn fine story with the gun!

[MBTcustom]

Thanks for all the pictures and descriptions of the demooners!
You guys sure know how to get a feller ready to go (my secret reason for bragging on my new gun on cast boolits!)
Thanks! You guys are my kind of folks.

[azrednek]

This is my favorite and most accurate for paper punching with my Brazilian 45's Sorry I don't recall the number, it is a SAECO 225 gr button nosed wad cutter. Properly sized in front of 4.0 grs of Bullseye. It prints attractive tight clusters. Prints nice clusters out of a 1911 as well if one can deal with an occasional hang-up. Being that paper targets don't return fire or run away. I get the same excellent results on paper from an auto-loader.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/wad-1a.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/wad-2a.jpg

EDIT: I'm with Dutchman, grant it the dignity of a rimmed cartridge. When you see 45 AR brass for sale, jump on it. It might be months before another run is available.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/crimp-1.gif
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/crimp-2.gif

I took these pics to show off the Redding Profile Crimp die's work.

[Char-Gar]

It is been my experience that better accuracy can be hand with the AR case. My pre-war Colt and Smiths are just plinkers and fun guns, so I don't worry about the last smidge of accuracy so they get the ACP cases.

In my post-war Smiths (625 and 1955 Target Models) I mostly use the AR case and load them with Keiths old load of 7.5/Unique/452423. This load will generate an honest 950 fps out of a 4" barrel and 1075 out of a 6.5 incher. This load is plenty for deer and anything smaller. I don't use these loads in pre-war handguns.

We have not yet touched on 45 ACP cylinders in SA sixguns. I have several of those as well.

[azrednek]

It is been my experience that better accuracy can be hand with the AR case. My pre-war Colt and Smiths are just plinkers and fun guns,

Exactly the same as my feelings. Max shot to shot shot accuracy is with AR brass.


We have not yet touched on 45 ACP cylinders in SA sixguns. I have several of those as well.

I've pushed 45ACP loads in a Blackhawk Converitble but can't get over the fear of mixing the hot loads up at a later date and have avoided doing it for several years.

[Char-Gar]

I've pushed 45ACP loads in a Blackhawk Converitble but can't get over the fear of mixing the hot loads up at a later date and have avoided doing it for several years.

I sorta have a rule to keep things from getting mixed up.

1. Any things in an ACP case can be fired in any handgun, auto or sixgun.
2. Loads in AR cases are for post-war Smith DA sixguns

With my single action 45 ACP cylinders, I stick to the ACP cases with the anything load as above. If I want something with more pop, I will put the 45 Colt cylinders in.

[MikeS]

The method I use to separate loads not to be shot in the 1911 is simply by mooning them as I load them! I used to have a 625, it was stolen along with 5 other guns in 2009, and to replace it I bought a 22-4 (the 'Vintage Series' copy of the Model of 1950) that has a really nice nickel finish on it. The 22-4 shoots great, but then so did the 625. After reading the comment about Smith beveling the ends of the chambers so moon clips must be used, I took it out to see, as I had recalled shooting some loose 45ACP cartridges in it, and either they forgot to do it to my cylinder, or they've changed their minds, as mine will properly chamber single 45ACP cartridges without a problem. Looking into the cylinders it's easy to see a real sharp cutoff between chamber and lead as well. One other thing about moonclips is they have to be kept flat, if they bend you might as well throw them away! Depending on if you want to keep the original look or not, a set of Hogue rubber grips really do make shooting these revolvers a more comfortable thing.

[StrawHat]

I also use the SAECO WC boolit in my ACP revolvers. And the GB of the 454423, also the 454424 and 454190. My loads are good in my 25-2 and reworked M28-2 but I sold both of my Brazilian contracts 25 years ago and have not replaced them.

The moon clips from Ranch Products are great. Dale53 is using a plastic moonclip and reports good things. I have not tried them. For unloading the Ranch Product clip, a piece of thinwall tubing with a bit of grinding works well. Cheap and easy to use.

If you want to try larger (.458) boolits, beagling will get you there. Or a lightweight boolit for the 45-70. Either way, it will be interesting to read where the large throats take you.

Now to find another Brazilian to swap for an M96.

[MBTcustom]

You know, I was really pleased to get this pistol, but you guys are getting me more and more wound up! Thanks for all the information! You really make me feel like a I have a treasure.

[Dale53]

I have shot, cast bullets, and reloaded for .45 ACP revolvers since about 1950. My father was a certified "Gunny" and shared everything with me. He put me to work at an early age casting bullets, reloading, and bench testing everything he bought. He was quite the "horse trader" with guns and an excellent shot.

We first had a Colt 1917 in .45 ACP. The barrel was pitted from previous use of corrosive ammo. He had a famous gunsmith from Cincinnati, Ohio (Joe Lamping) fit a VERY nice ramped and ribbed barrel that shot really well. Later, he got a model 1950 Target and a few years later, the then new 1955 Target Smith. They went by way of trades as my father got deeply into trapshooting.

I have stayed interested in handguns to this time. About three years ago I picked up a new 625-8 Jerry Miculek Special. It is one of the most user friendly revolvers I have ever owned. I put a Red Dot on it and while it will shoot most anyting I run in it, it mostly gets Mihec's #68 200 gr SWC. That lead me to an Estate gun at the OGCA (a 625-6 Model of 1989 5"). They both will stay here until they plant me. They are, by far, my most shot revolvers and in many ways the most satisfying.

To the O.P.:
Enjoy your new acquisition as there is a rich heritage in the Smith .45 ACP's. As was mentioned above, I use and enjoy RIMZ clips with my .45 ACP. The latest generation carbon/polymer full moon clips are VERY reliable, can easily be loaded and unloaded with just your fingers. Be sure and get the Model 25 clips:

http://www.ezmoonclip.com/

The best commercial tool (unless you want to spend $100.00 for one) to unload the steel moon clips is:

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/cid=0/k=moon-clip%20stripper/t=P/ksubmit=y/Products/All/search=moon-clip%20stripper

These days I find myself mostly using Starline Auto Rim cases. Order out a thousand and you are fixed for a L-o-n-n-n-g time.

https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/45-Auto-Rim-Brass/

Dale53

[MtGun44]

Nice piece of history.

NOW you NEED a Colt to make the pair. ;-)

I looked for 8-10 yrs to find a nice (not "improved" - dead stock) Colt 1917 at
a fair price - got one for $400. MANY were seen at $600 to $1000 and most were
all tarted up - ruined, IMO.

Bill

[MBTcustom]

Well, I took the pistol out saterday for a little target practice. I had some copper jacketed rounds that were over run from a customers order. Rainier Ballistics 200 grain RN.
Well, accuracy was dismal. At 40 yards, I was getting somewhere in a 24" circle. I can honestly say that was the worst group I have ever shot with any firearm I have ever used, with the possible exception of the 357 smooth-bore derringer I made out of a go-cart axle when I was 14.
I knew those throats were going to cause me trouble, but color me purple and call me Barney, that was terrible!
I guess spare cylinders for these are pretty easy to find huh?:kidding:
I've got a deal going with a customer from here who has some 230 grain boolits that mic out at .458. I sure hope that does the trick!

[MBTcustom]

I got the moon clips from ranch products. I loaded up one of them and it seems I am going to need to tweak the fit of these. I had to press them into the cylinder the last 1/8".
I am still pretty disappointed with the performance of this pistol. I wish there was a way to put metal back that was taken out by somebody, but unfortunately, I may have no recourse but to make a new cylinder from scratch.:groner:

[Dale53]

Tim;
One thing not mentioned in this thread is that the fit of Full Moon steel clips varies from different brands of brass. The extractor groove is the problem (not the moon clips).

If you get this revolver shooting well, you might want to check out those Model 25 RIMZ carbon/polymer full moon clips. They are secure but allow easy use of the fingers to load and unload - no tools are needed.

FWIW
Dale53

[MBTcustom]

I saw the RIMZ on youtube. I worry that they would not stay loaded anywhere except on the bench. Like if I keep two in my pocket as I am hunting, and they get sat on, crushed, twisted, etc. I wonder if they will stay put.

[Dale53]

Tim;
The original polymer RIMZ clips were only suitable for range use (IMO - others used them for competition with good results). However, RIMZ later came out with the Hydrocarbon/Polymer full moon clips that are MUCH more secure.

Steel clips ARE more reliable. However, even the steel clips are not bullet proof:groner: as they will bend and render them inoperable if not handled properly.

Either will work well when used with proper full moon clip holders. The new (Model 25) RIMZ clips have survived five foot falls onto hard surfaces without losing a cartridge although I would consider that HARD use...

$28.50 will allow you to order out 15 and see for yourself. YMMV

Dale53

[MtGun44]

Mine did the same thing with hard cast .452 with moderate powder charges.

Try soft cast with 6.5 gr of Unique. Apparently bumps up well enough to really
dramatically improve accy, like 2-3" group at 25 yds when previous was 12-18".

I did once shoot some 7.0 Unique, and it was tighter and moving closer to POA,
had started at 6" diam and 6-8" left, as the load went up, they tightened up
and moved steadily towards POA. These were all 452423 soft cast (AC WWt with some
lead) and starting about 4.5 or 5 gr of Unique, moving up to 7.0 where I chickened
out in half grain increments. Diam was .453 in .455 to .456 throats, largest I could
get at that time. Before I knew about beagling. Consider beagling up to .457 but
you may have issues with chambering.

Bill

[MBTcustom]

Consider beagling up to .457 but
you may have issues with chambering.
That's what I'm afraid of. Although, it would be relatively easy to ream out the chambers a few thousandths oversize just to get the chamber/throat difference back where it needs to be.
Before I do that though, I may try some hollow based wad cutters?
I don't know. I have never seen or heard of a gun with throats so far oversize. This reminds me of the #4 MK1 I dealt with when I first came here. It's groove diameter was .3195 and I couldn't chamber a cartridge with a boolit that big, so I reamed the neck out about .004. That didn't help that gun shoot at all, so I'm scared to do it again in this case, even though it seems like an intuitive modification.
I just really don't want to ruin anything, so I'll work with the boolits for the moment.

[MtGun44]

Hot loads, soft boolits as big as you can. BUMP UP - seems to work reasonably
well in mine, altho now I have custom oversized clone 455423 and haven't had
the time to really wring it out with both the S&W and the Colt 1917s.

Hollowbase may do it too, but bump up (obturation) has worked for me - worth a try.

Bill

[Dutchman]

Same gun, same shooter, same powder charge.

Different bullet. Both .452". No half-moon clips used. Just .45 acp dropped into chambers. (I forgot the AutoRim ammo that day).

http://images52.fotki.com/v642/photos/2/28344/1676633/rrr10-vi.jpg

http://images59.fotki.com/v1579/photos/2/28344/1676633/rrr11-vi.jpg

[MBTcustom]

Crazy! I'll never understand how such a little difference makes such a big difference!

[Catshooter]

Tim,

If your Smith performs like mine, a boolit the same size as the throats will do the trick.


Cat

[MBTcustom]

Does yours have throats as big as mine?
I really really want this to work! What more could a man ask than for his father to give him an excellent pistol? Well, I've got the pistol, now I have to figure out how to make it excel!

[Catshooter]

Well, you made me go look at my records.

I have three '17s and a 25-5 all with big throats. Not as large as yours, mine go to .4576. I size .457 and .456, depending on which revolter I'm loading for. Smallest bore is .452, which I just ignore. I know that the bore will size it down nicely.

No leading, excellent accuracy. Try it. What do you have to loose?


Cat