Armor piercing

[parrott1969]

Not sure where to put this so I thought I would stick it here. When I was interviewed by the ATF for my VI FFl a few years ago, the agent told me that armor piercing is classified as any projectile where the jacket is more that 25% of the bullet weight. So does that mean that Barnes and Hornady's flag ship bullets are armor piercing by defintion? They have no lead core. So could they not argue that the jacket is homogenous and therefore it is armor piercing?

[runfiverun]

i would think since it has no jaxket it fell through the cracks.
but then again the fed's also mandated areas where you can't use lead core [or all lead] bullets.
leaving no other available choice.

[Adam10mm]

18 USC 921

(17)
(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

So let's break this down:

May be used in a handgun- that means rifle cartridges that can be used in handguns, like Thompson Center pistols are included, so .223, .308. etc.

Barnes and Hornady and Nosler "all copper" bullets are not "constructed entirely [except for trace elements] or a combination of specifically tungsten, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium. Elite Ammunition made bullets made entirely of brass, so that's why they got in trouble for manufacturing AP ammunition. Barnes, Hornady, and Nosler use gilding alloy, which is not on the list and is not comprised of "beryllium copper" as the copper alloy component.

The "or" is a big part. It's either subparagraph i or ii that meet the definition.

So the Barnes/Hornady/Nosler bullets are NOT fully jacketed because the term jacket means to cover a core or body, which they do not. They do not meet the definition based on this, since a homogenous bullet has no jacket. Very clever and that's why Barnes has a patent on it. So since it doesn't meet that first requirement we can stop, since it's not armor piercing as defined.

But let's go on for education's sake. Some are larger than .22" caliber and designed and intended for use in a handgun, like their pistol XPB or whatever bullets. Meeting this requirement the next word "and" means both conditions have to be met. So now this said bullet has to have a "jacket that has a weight of more than 25% of the total projectile weight" [paraphrased slightly]. Well, since we previously determined that a homogenous bullet has no jacket, it can't have a jacket that meets the criteria, so it's again not AP ammunition as defined.

To recap:

-not made of specific metal alloys
-doesn't have a jacket

Those two reasons are why the all copper bullets are not AP ammunition.They are all copper, but not beryllium copper. They are gilding metal copper. Different alloy and not specifically named in the statute.

[tomme boy]

Barnes I thought already has been raided by the ATF last year because of this.

[tomme boy]

Yep, just do a Google search.

[nicholst55]

18 USC 921

(17)
(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

So let's break this down:

May be used in a handgun- that means rifle cartridges that can be used in handguns, like Thompson Center pistols are included, so .223, .308. etc.

Barnes and Hornady and Nosler "all copper" bullets are not "constructed entirely [except for trace elements] or a combination of specifically tungsten, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium. Elite Ammunition made bullets made entirely of brass, so that's why they got in trouble for manufacturing AP ammunition. Barnes, Hornady, and Nosler use gilding alloy, which is not on the list and is not comprised of "beryllium copper" as the copper alloy component.

The "or" is a big part. It's either subparagraph i or ii that meet the definition.

So the Barnes/Hornady/Nosler bullets are NOT fully jacketed because the term jacket means to cover a core or body, which they do not. They do not meet the definition based on this, since a homogenous bullet has no jacket. Very clever and that's why Barnes has a patent on it. So since it doesn't meet that first requirement we can stop, since it's not armor piercing as defined.

But let's go on for education's sake. Some are larger than .22" caliber and designed and intended for use in a handgun, like their pistol XPB or whatever bullets. Meeting this requirement the next word "and" means both conditions have to be met. So now this said bullet has to have a "jacket that has a weight of more than 25% of the total projectile weight" [paraphrased slightly]. Well, since we previously determined that a homogenous bullet has no jacket, it can't have a jacket that meets the criteria, so it's again not AP ammunition as defined.

To recap:

-not made of specific metal alloys
-doesn't have a jacket

Those two reasons are why the all copper bullets are not AP ammunition.They are all copper, but not beryllium copper. They are gilding metal copper. Different alloy and not specifically named in the statute.

While I certainly agree with everything you said, I will not put anything past a LEA that has consistently and repeatedly made up the rules as they went along, and changed them at their own convenience! They ruled that a semi-automatic firearm and a boot lace combined together constitute an unregistered machine gun, for crying out loud!

[Adam10mm]

Barnes I thought already has been raided by the ATF last year because of this.
Actually, the raid was on Elite Ammunition for their brass bullets. Barnes Bullets was contacted by ATF through letters, not a raid.

[WilliamDahl]

So, if you are using UNdepleted uranium for the bullets, it's not *officially* an armor piercing round...

[Oreo]

Based on that list neither are the zirconium API rounds a available for 50bmg. I suppose one could craft a few handgun bullets out of that stuff too.

[PbHurler]

Is gilding metal not considered a brass anymore?
(Brass by definition is a combination of copper & zinc)

P.S. I'm not trying to give the feds any more reason to pester us.

[parrott1969]

Is gilding metal not considered a brass anymore?
(Brass by definition is a combination of copper & zinc)

Thats what I am wondering. Currently have a bunch of Hornady gilding metal projectiles for 30 caliber. I my pea brain, that constitutes brass. While not banned from manufacturing armor piercing ammo but I am required to maintain records of who it is sold to. I do not like the idea of keeping records of customers purchases laying around for years waiting on the Feds.

[parrott1969]

Ok, I got it. The key word is beryllium copper. Thanks Freakshow

[quiver]

For large caliber such as 50 BMG you could use zinc. Heavy enough at that size and a metal almost as strong as iron.

[PbHurler]

Ok, I got it. The key word is beryllium copper. Thanks Freakshow

I see what you're both saying; so maybe I'm reading this statement too literally:

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium;

So how does gilding metal, a "brass", get a pass?

I'm not being argumentative at all here, just intrigued by the discussion.

[runfiverun]

might could be because it's made with zinc which isn't on the list.
and the zinc content is something like 3-5%.

[PbHurler]

might could be because it's made with zinc which isn't on the list.
and the zinc content is something like 3-5%.

Yes, maybe they spell out somewere else, a minimum or maximum percentage of zinc which makes up the brass, is deemed unacceptable.

There are different grades of brass depending on the zinc content.

Let's not give the feds anymore ideas..........

[sw282]

ls this why Speer stopped making their African Grand Slam bullets? The solids w/tungsten cores?

[WilliamDahl]

It appears that they are talking about *handgun* ammunition here, so the .50BMG is not an issue. Are they talking about body armor piercing ammunition or real armor ammunition piercing? Rifles are likely to pierce body armor even with normal jacketed rifle bullets.

[Adam10mm]

It appears that they are talking about *handgun* ammunition here, so the .50BMG is not an issue.
If it is chambered in any handgun, it's a handgun ammunition issue. The TC Encore pistols in .30-30 for example, make the .30-30 a handgun cartridge subject to the armor piercing definitions.

[9.3X62AL]

AP ammo raises other issues than just penetration capability. Steel-core or steel-jacketed bullets do an excellent job of sparking against granitic rocks and igniting vegetation fires. And when a steel target gets penetrated by any bullet, it sheds red-hot fragments that can ignite dry vegetation easily. Gotta be careful out there.

[Oreo]

I referred to the 50bmg API ammo for whatever it's core is made of. Put that stuff in a handgun round, say 357mag. I've heard its called zirconium and that isn't on the list. Irony and all that.

[WilliamDahl]

AP ammo raises other issues than just penetration capability. Steel-core or steel-jacketed bullets do an excellent job of sparking against granitic rocks and igniting vegetation fires. And when a steel target gets penetrated by any bullet, it sheds red-hot fragments that can ignite dry vegetation easily. Gotta be careful out there.

But that is a concern for local fire codes, not the ATF.

[9.3X62AL]

But that is a concern for local fire codes, not the ATF.

True that. I'm speaking to personal use only. I'm disinterested in AP ammo of any form, but respect the rights of others to shoot whatever they want without undue regulation and foofahrah. The object of any hobby is enjoyment.

[SlippShodd]

Are they talking about body armor piercing ammunition or real armor ammunition piercing? Rifles are likely to pierce body armor even with normal jacketed rifle bullets.

Please, if someone can speak on this issue? This is a confusing bit in these discussions and I would appreciate clarification as well.
I presume this to be where the old "cop-killer ammunition" debate rears/reared its ugly head

mike

[Revolver]

...armor piercing is classified as any projectile where the jacket is more that 25% of the bullet weight...

So then I wonder if this 7.62x39 East German practice ammo is considered armor piercing? It has a light plastic core with a steel jacket. :D Silly rules.

Plastic Core Ammo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwsOO7TF0bA