No More Ranchdog...Now What?

[wtfooptimax200]

All of this time I'd been planning to jump on the RD bandwagon when funds allowed. After seeing the recent news about RD shutting down, I have a bit of a conundrum....RD molds seem to be wildly popular for lever action calibers such a 30-30, 32, 35, and 45-70, but it seems by the time I can purchase them, they will be out of stock. With my wedding one month away and the purchase of a house in the few months after that, funding for molds is non-existent. Thinking ahead, how should I go about surviving in the Post-RD world? Who else makes great molds for the above calibers in lever actions?

Thanks,
Branden

[runfiverun]

lee made them for him and,michael said they should be adding them to thier line-up,some of them anyway.
r-dog had also been designing some molds for the rossi leverguns.
he has a websight set up to discuss rossi frearms and stuff.
you can link it from the mold sight.

[Bullshop]

He was kind enough to give me one of each design as of a couple years ago so I could supply samples for folks wanting to try before they buy.
I still have them and will still cast from them.

[Frozone]

Darn, RD is just about the Perot of the mold makers :-}

[JJC]

I had a NOE copy of the RD 45 cal 425 gr. Did not like it to much. Check out Accurate molds, I would think he can make what you want or recreate a design. He may already have something in the catalog you like too?

[WilliamDahl]

Darn, RD is just about the Perot of the mold makers :-}

So, you're saying that he is short and obnoxious? :)

[captaint]

Take heart folks, this is not the first time the Ranchdog has retired from the mold business. enjoy Mike

[Moondawg]

Let not your heart be troubled. There are plenty of good mold makers out there that will turn out a quality mold to fit your needs. Whats more they will do it in iron or brass.

[1Shirt]

Yep, agree with Moondawg! The difference however will be in price!
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[youngda9]

I just snatched up one a few days ago. Glad I did ! Now if I could only predict which ones I'd wish that I'd buy in the future...hmmm.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

All of this time I'd been planning to jump on the RD bandwagon when funds allowed. After seeing the recent news about RD shutting down, I have a bit of a conundrum....RD molds seem to be wildly popular for lever action calibers such a 30-30, 32, 35, and 45-70, but it seems by the time I can purchase them, they will be out of stock. With my wedding one month away and the purchase of a house in the few months after that, funding for molds is non-existent. Thinking ahead, how should I go about surviving in the Post-RD world? Who else makes great molds for the above calibers in lever actions? Thanks, Branden

It has been said before, We are currently in the golden age of cast boolit mold manufacture. The number of custom manufacturers producing "to spec" molds is higher than anytime in history...as well as many, many production manufacturers producing near spec molds.

If there is a market (even a small one) there will be someone to make you a RD style mold.

Good Luck to you RD, have some fun, life is short.
Jon

[Moondawg]

RE: the price of an excellent custom mold: give your money to your favorite mold maker, or give it to our president and his government. Your choice.

[40Super]

unfortunately you have no choice but to give it to the government, hence no funds to buy the molds in the first place.:cry:

[Murphy]

What a shame, he offered some great designs. I was shopping for a good mould for my .380 boolits in a 6 cavity. His design and weight were just what I was looking for.

With any luck, LEE will be smart enough to pick up some of the most popular ones and run with them.

Murphy

[runfiverun]

i know of someone that is setting up a cnc machine that will be making molds here shortly....
he can most likely be persuaded to do the r/d design programming....
he will need a bit of time to get everything worked out..

[rainy191]

+1 for accurate molds. i have 2 made of brass and are the best i have. by far supiorior to ranchdog or lee. lee worked well to learn on but once i started getting lyman and my 2 accurate molds, i wont buy or use any lee again

[Roundnoser]

Bullshop is back??? When did that happen??? I must have been sleeping!

[timbuck]

where did you get that idea?
his website is up.
Was there a notice that I missed?

[Char-Gar]

All of this time I'd been planning to jump on the RD bandwagon when funds allowed. After seeing the recent news about RD shutting down, I have a bit of a conundrum....RD molds seem to be wildly popular for lever action calibers such a 30-30, 32, 35, and 45-70, but it seems by the time I can purchase them, they will be out of stock. With my wedding one month away and the purchase of a house in the few months after that, funding for molds is non-existent. Thinking ahead, how should I go about surviving in the Post-RD world? Who else makes great molds for the above calibers in lever actions?

Thanks,
Branden

Relax..We were shooting cast bullets in leverguns long before Ranchdog saw the light of day and we will continue to do so long after he has gone dark.

[turbo1889]

It is of course up to Ranch Dog himself, and I can certainly respect his wishes if he doesn't want to do this but it seems to me that it would be an incredibly nice guesture if he (and other great mold makers who decide to close up shop) would post their boolit design diagrams on the cast boolits server on their way out so that the knowledge isn't lost and those designs can still be made via group buy or other custom means.

Could be sort of a continuing heritage for the next generations so to speak and a continuing name recognition to the original designer. What better credit can be given if people still refer to a design you came up with by your prefered screen name or other designation long after you are gone? Just think of some of the names for some of the BPCR boolits that the last names of their original designers are now the inserperable name of that kind of boolit long after they have passed on sometimes multiple generations ago.

[Char-Gar]

I don't know Ranch Dog on a personal basis, but I sure would turn over to the general public my intellectual property for nada. Being a good guy is nice and sooner or later the designs will enter public domain, but one of his kids might want a business or he might sell it for some extra cash.

Would any of your guys give away a business you started and developed just to be a good guy..... I didn't think so.

[Moondawg]

I have three molds from Accurate molds that I had made specailly for my 357 and 44rm lever actions. They make lever action friendly boolits that shoot great. And Accurate Molds are second to none for quality. Tom probably has dozens of different boolit styles weights and diameters that work great in lever guns.

[turbo1889]

I get what you are saying Char-Gar but it is also true that intellectual property rights are only as valuable as your ability to enforce them and for copying boolit designs the enforcement power is zip. Add to that the fact that the boolit mold market tends to put value emphasis towards quality physical production (as in the outfit willing to make a quality mold for price point has the advantage rather then any particular copyrighted or patented unique design elements) especially considering the market trend towards more and more made to order custom molds that take advantage of today's CNC machining capabilities where the customer can order pretty much whatever they want as far as design especially in a group buy situation.

Long story short the legal right to use the "Ranch Dog" brand name is far more marketable then the actual boolit designs themselves since that is enforceable where as the boolit design is not. Otherwise Saco could make a killing out of suing all the other companies that have copied and recopied some of their popular pistol boolit designs over and over again over the years.

[Char-Gar]

turbo... Patents, copyrights and the like have a limited lifespan, after that they pass into public domain and are up for grabs. That is why we can do group buys on old Lyman designs having them made by other people. The Ranch Dog designs are still new enough to be covered by a copyright.

Trademarks..like Ranch Dog, Coca-Cola, Ford, Chevy etc. etc. etc. have no life span.

[Hardcast416taylor]

When Bruce decided to close the doors at BRP molds, I almost felt like joining the lemmings migration going toward the cliffs edge. But I got over it.Robert:brokenima

[wills]

All of this time I'd been planning to jump on the RD bandwagon when funds allowed. After seeing the recent news about RD shutting down, I have a bit of a conundrum....RD molds seem to be wildly popular for lever action calibers such a 30-30, 32, 35, and 45-70, but it seems by the time I can purchase them, they will be out of stock. With my wedding one month away and the purchase of a house in the few months after that, funding for molds is non-existent. Thinking ahead, how should I go about surviving in the Post-RD world? Who else makes great molds for the above calibers in lever actions?

Thanks,
Branden

Clearly your reasoning is flawed. Postpone the wedding and house purchase until the molds are acquired.

[wtfooptimax200]

Clearly your reasoning is flawed. Postpone the wedding and house purchase until the molds are acquired.

:killingpc HAHAHAHA I knew I was looking at this all wrong!

I hear what you guys are saying about getting along just fine prior to RD and that we'll all get along great after RD. I'll just have to get over it,

[turbo1889]

. . . The Ranch Dog designs are still new enough to be covered by a copyright. . .

Sorry, but that doesn't fly. The only kind of copyright that could conceivably be applied to a boolit design is an "industrial design copyright" which is separated from a patent in intellectual property right laws in that it is a form of artistic expression in the design of the product that does not fill utilitarian purposes.

For manufactured utilitarian objects (an automobile for example) the utilitarian intellectual property of the design cannot be covered by a copyright but must be covered by a patent. Conversely for such a manufactured utilitarian object (again an automobile is a good example) any artistic design in the product that does not fill utilitarian purposes cannot be covered by a patent but must be covered by an "industrial design copyright".

Yes, the actual paper printouts of a boolit design can be copyrighted and usually are but the actual boolit design cannot be copyrighted unless it is an "industrial design copyright" which necessitates part of the boolit design not having a utilitarian purpose but being an artistic expression and even then the industrial design copyright would only cover that artistic portion of the design and would not prevent copying of the utilitarian parts of the design, only a patent can protect the utilitarian parts of the design.

And ~ getting a patent to cover a unique boolit design is very difficult due to the considerable back history in boolit design and the difficulty in showing that your invention is new and unique from what has come before. Lee tried to get patents for both the "drive key" design of their slug mold and their tumble lube groove design and were unsuccessful on both counts.

As I said unless you come up with something that is really unique your ability to enforce intellectual property rights in regard to boolit designs is zip ~ as in a null phrase ~ as in a big fat zero.

I'm not saying that is necessarily how it should be, just saying that is how it is.

[HARRYMPOPE]

just order an LBT as that's the basic style he copied.Give Veral the business he deserves.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

It makes you wonder if LEE is smart enough to make a run of any that he ordered in significant quantities for him.

[WilliamDahl]

It makes you wonder if LEE is smart enough to make a run of any that he ordered in significant quantities for him.

Then again, with modern CNC machining, it's probably a case of just plugging the blanks into the machine and loading the program, so doing a run of old designs would be no different than new designs. I guess it depends upon how Lee produces their molds...

[MikeS]

It figures that the vultures would come out when Michael announced his closing. Wether or not moulds can be copy-written copy-written or patented is of little point. Look at the H&G #68, almost every boolit mould maker makes that boolit. there have already been copies of Ranch Dog designs, but with small changes, lube grooves for real lube, rather than tumble lube, etc. I'm just happy that Michael made some of the designs that he did, as well as some of the other products, such as the 45 Colt FCD that's the collet type, not the carbide type, etc. Or the odd sized size & lube kits. If he puts the designs up in the public domain, great. If he doesn't, that's great too. He deserves to do whatever he wants to with them. As he used Lee for all his products, there's nothing stopping them from making any / all of his designed products, considering that they're already all tooled up to make them, and I'm not even sure if they have to ask Ranch Dog's permission or not.

[GRid.1569]

I'm just glad I managed to get one of the designs (175 TL .359) I'd had an eye for some time... Michael even did a "custom" Pb conversion for me giving me 5 PB & 1 GC cav... He no longer offers PB reaming... a good man right to the (almost) end... very accommodating...

Just wish Swede (NOE) could get back to offering designs with multi weight cavities.. maybe someday...

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

What a shame, he offered some great designs. I was shopping for a good mould for my .380 boolits in a 6 cavity. His design and weight were just what I was looking for.

With any luck, LEE will be smart enough to pick up some of the most popular ones and run with them.

Murphy

If I were a bettin' man (and I am),
I would bet Lee will NOT cut the Ranch Dog designs, at least not precisely.

One thing about Lee is, they navigate their own ship.
Proud one's they are. They may change 'em a little bit,
then claim them as their design. Like making the TL grooves
as tiny as their other designs...I think they are proud of those
tiny lube grooves. I recall some advertising about their Modern Minnie
claiming the tiny lube grooves made it much more accurate.
AND, to me, Ranch Dogs larger tumble lube grooves are an
important part of his design.
that's my 2¢,
Jon

[turbo1889]

It figures that the vultures would come out when Michael announced his closing.

I'm not trying to be a vulture and that was not my intentions at all. My primary concern is that the "knowledge experience" that is built into the RanchDog designs especially their clean feeding characteristics combined with both accuracy and effective knock down in lever guns not be lost once he is gone. Consistently combining all three of those in the same boolit for a wide range of lever guns is a challenge to say the least and the RanchDog designs do it handsomely and that doesn't even touch the fact that he figured out a lube groove profile that works both for tumble lube and conventional stick lube equally well.

To many times when a product that represents a well though out quality solution to a unique set of problems goes off the market due to the original maker retiring after a decade or so the knowledge gets lost all together and future generations have to relearn it all over again. I would hate for that to happen to what RanchDog has done. As I said in my original post where I broached the subject on the first page if he doesn't want to post his designs and the how and why here or elsewhere on his way out I completely understand and that is his prerogative.

I did dispute what, Char-Gar, had to say but that really wasn't addressing RanchDog at all but rather the more base principle of the matter. There are a considerable number of people out there that considerably overestimate their intellectual property and its supposed value. Ranging from a guy I knew what got a brilliant original idea for an ice fishing shed that all folded in on itself and packed down into its base that double folded up into a double sided sled shape to be easily pulled behind you on a rope just like a sled. Problem was that everything in his design was basic mechanical components known for hundreds of years and there are other fold up structures that had gone before and nothing in it was truly unique. Unique being a genuine first. Possibly the first time everything was all put together into a single concept for that specific purpose but even that is highly debatable to say the least. His plan was to get it patented and then get rich of of the royalty fees. I told him he would be lucky if a patent would even be granted and even if it was he wasn't going to get rich off it that easy and the slim profit margin that was to be had would be in the one who actually put it into manufacture and actually got it out to mass market and properly marketed it to the target market would be where the money could be had and it wouldn't be an easy buck but a long hard climb. Not trying to discourage him from his dream but trying to "pop his bubble" and make him realize that unless you truly come up with something that is a true first there is no easy buck and everything takes hard work and even the things that might seem to be a quick buck (for example if you figure out a way to do clean productive commercial cold fusion power generation) in that case the hard work is making the idea work in the first place before you can ever get to the patentable stage. The less hard work in the beginning to more on the back side and vic-a-versa so there is no magic intellectual property rights way to get rich and it still takes hard work there too.

He didn't listen and presued an expensive course of trying to get a patent and market it to industry and all the lawyer and professional consultant fees that go with that and ultimately ended up moving away when the bills mounted and he could no longer pay his mortgage (this was many years before the recent mortgage crisis).

In another case I know of an older lady who was a great cook who absolutely refused to share any of her recipes with her family including her daughters and her sons wives or anyone else for that matter always insisting that one day she would write a world famous cook book and have a second retirement in the tropics after her husband died first ~ she died of a heart attack in her 50's and took it all to her grave.

[turbo1889]

Think of it this way: How foolish is the little kid that instead of having fun with the group instead takes his favorite toy and wraps it in his arms and tucks it into his chest and curls up in a ball around the favorite toy in the corner saying "Mine!!! Mine!!! Mine!!!".

That is the attitude some people seem to have about their supposed intellectual property and its supposed value. I completely understand wanting to make a profit off of your ideas and time and effort invested. But the value of that intellectual property is only as much as you can get for it on the market multiplied by your ability to enforce intellectual ownership of the idea. No matter how large of a number you have if you multiply it by zero you end up with zero as the product on the other side of the equal sign on that equation.

I could go to RanchDog's web-site right now (actually have it open right now in another tab) and pull up the design dimensions on each one of his boolit designs and right click and save those pictures to my hard-drive. Yes they are copyrighted (although interestingly enough not by RanchDog but rather by TMT Enterprises which appears to be the software company for the program used to design the boolits) but the right click menu still gives me the option to save them as pictures and even if it didn't I could still get around that with the "Print Screen" hardware command.

I choose not to do so. I do have one of his 9mm chamber drawings in my files that I used for getting the industry standard chamber throat dimensions for that cartridge from for a different boolit I designed myself for that same cartridge but I wasn't copying his design just using the chamber dimensions to assist me in my own boolit design and I even PM'ed him back and forth on this forum asking his opinion of my boolit design side-by-side with his and he did offer some appreciated pointers and suggestions that I am thankful for.

It would be quite another thing to just start saving all the designs that can be accessed from his web-site and all the info pages and such. That would in my mind most certainly qualify as "vulture" activity. To my knowledge he hasn't offered his designs to us to continue to use for group guys and such after he closes up shop and that is his decision and it isn't just free to go grab off of his web-site while you can get it. At least not in my mind. It, however, doesn't hurt to ask and kindly suggest that it would be nice of him to do that for us on his way out.

As I originally said it would be nice if he posted those boolit schematics in a thread or such on the cast boolit sight and let it be known that it wasn't any skin off of his back if we continued to do group buys and such of his designs after he was out of business. It's his decision all I and others can do is ask and its ridiculous for some people to get all bent out of shape and start quoting erroneous speculation about "copyrighted boolit designs" and how terrible I am to dare to ask that such a valuable piece of intellectual property be shared freely one the original designer is no longer using them in business enterprise.

Long story short, on anything that is a non-patented and/or non-patentable utilitarian design that cannot be copyrighted because it is a utilitarian physical object not a work of art or written work, etc. . . . If it ain't a secret that has been kept and is already out there and it isn't legally enforceable it ain't near the valuable piece of intellectual property you think it has. It is multiplication by zero. Kind of like secret proprietary recipes, which aren't legally enforceable beyond indirect enforcement such as non-disclosure contracts and the secret recipe is only as valuable as the market value someone is willing to pay for it multiplied by how well the secret has been kept. Unless you come up with something that is incredibly extraordinarily groundbreaking on the very frontier of ballistics you aren't going to get a patent for a cast boolit design. Thus you have no direct legal ability to enforce any emotional proprietary feelings you may have towards your design and thus you are left only with secrecy as an enforcement tool, which is a very poor tool in the case of a boolit mold design that is sold commercially since all you need is a good micro-meter to reverse engineer the design in short order.

[MT Chambers]

We have 2 of the best right here, Accurate molds and LBT, and NOE when they're avail., but it is too bad about BRP, won't miss RD because I'm a non-believer in tumble lube designs.

[popper]

3 types of 'patents', technical (hard to get and $$$), design (artistic design for few $$) and copyright, which you stamp copyrighted and send a copy to the patent office. Intellectual property is a completely different class. Patent 'life' is extended by paying $$. RD will do what is best for him.

[Steel185]

I just wanted one of ranch dog's new Ruger 480 molds,but I missed the boat during ordering time. Diddnt even see it coming.

[nanuk]

We have a designer of boolits right here in CB who won't give out much, if any info on his designs

many on here think of this place as a "Sharing Ideas" kind of place

BUT it is also a MONEY MAKER for some!

it would be generous for Michael to give away his design info

but I would understand if he follows the example of the other who shares little to nothing, but a Trust Me comment.

I have no leverguns, but have bought a few items from RanchDog, and have been treated with utmost respect from him. He has gone far beyond being helpful to me.

[MikeS]

Another thing to think of, if you have a drawing of one of his boolits that you would like duplicated, send it to Tom at Accurate Molds, and he'll make it for you. In all reality you can't copyright or trademark the actual boolit design, just the name, so even without the exact specs on paper, Tom can make it. Of course it's easier if there's a drawing with specs on it, but I believe Tom can copy a boolit, and with the boolit exchange we have, it shouldn't be hard to get some of almost any design you want to copy.

[MikeS]

Turbo - Another thing about patents, first they're expensive to get, as the patent office takes an adversarial position, so getting a patent attorney is a requirement, and they're not cheap. Second, once you've gone thru all the hassle of getting a patent, it's only as good as the amount of money you have to sue anyone that copies your patented idea. So if you go out, and get a patent using much of your available funds, then some big company comes along and copies it, generally speaking you're SOL. If you had a patent, and GM decided to copy it, they can afford lawyers that can keep your law suit in the courts for years, basically waiting you out, as they could afford to keep it in court much longer than you or I could. So basically all a patent does is make others think twice before copying it. So as a patent attorney once told me, if a big company comes along, and either wants to license one of my patents, or outright buy it, I'd be much better off working with them, rather than trying to fight them later. And another thing, let's use one of Ranch Dog's designs as an example, say a particular boolit design has 10 TL grooves on it, if somebody made an exact copy, but put 11TL grooves on it, or 9, it becomes a new design, so doesn't infringe on his patent. That's another reason why it doesn't pay to try and patent some things, a very minor change is enough to classify it as a new design, and not a copy of an existing design.

[HORNET]

Okay, Michael can get a trademark on the name Ranch Dog, I would imagine, and he could sue anybody making the molds using the Ranch Dog name as part of the designation. But,as MikeS points out, it only takes a minor change and the mold doesn't EXACTLY meet his drawings and, if they DON'T use Ranch Dog as part of the name, there is no grounds for a lawsuit. Have any of you kibitzers ACTUALLY READ the Lee custom mold manufacturing agreement? IIRC, part of the agreement is that Lee retains the right to bring the design into their stock catalog IF they so desire. They usually suffer too much from NIH (Not Invented Here) Syndrome to do this very often, but they do have the right.

[turbo1889]

Regardless of all the technical this and that, this is the main point I was trying to make following the reaction to my first post on this thread:


. . . It . . . doesn't hurt to ask and kindly suggest that it would be nice of him to do that for us on his way out. . . . It's his decision all I and others can do is ask and its ridiculous for some people to get all bent out of shape and start quoting erroneous speculation about "copyrighted boolit designs" and how terrible I am to dare to ask that such a valuable piece of intellectual property be shared freely one the original designer is no longer using them in business enterprise. . . .

*Emphasis Added

[MikeS]

Turbo, you're right, I didn't mean to imply that you did anything wrong by asking. I probably overreacted, but a few months ago when BullShop said they were closing, it created lots of bad blood, with some folks getting really bent out of shape that they dare close, and not disclose what was in their product. So I apologize for overreacting.

[Sonnypie]

To Turbo1889, The short answer is NO.

An observation is: You are very verbose.

But do carry on....

(Why don't you talk to Ranch Dog Molds directly?) :Bright idea:

[Carolina Cast Bullets]

Gentlemen,
Like Bullshop, Mike was quite generous to allow me access to his molds. I have a good collection of them as well as some of his less popular molds such as the 38-55, 290 grain 45 LC and his 265 grainer for the 444. All are available from my website

www.carolinacastbullets.com

Please call or email if what you want/need is not there. I do have a couple that are not shown.

Jerry
Carolina Cast Bullets

[turbo1889]

Actually, Bullshop did post a lot of info on this forum. I've used the Hard Lotac reciepe he posted many times. I just used Castrol 2-cycle Snowmobile oil instead of the Bullplate lube.

It is true that as far as I know he still hasn't let the cat out of the bag as far as exactly what Bullplate is but various 2-cycle mix oils can be used instead. I personally find the for actual sprue plate lube the higher priced fully sinthetic stuff seems to work the best and the cheaper non-sinthetic stuff works fine for the boolit lube receipes. There has been rumblings for a very long time on this forum that Bullplate is a specific brand, type, and weight of 2-cycle mix oil or something very similar but very few if any besides the big Bull himself knows for sure and if he wants to keep that part of the secret to himself that is his choice.

But to say he didn't leave anything for us is a harsh and incorrect judgment considering he most certainly did leave us quite a few good lube receipes and a lot of other tid-bits and seems to have only kept one or two aces in the hole and layed his other cards out for us to see.

As to contacting Ranchdog directly, I may indeed but its a general sentament I have towards the topic in general of leaving behind a legacy on your way out so posted in the public forum. I will, also, wait and see what he does with his own web-site since he seems to be archiving all his old designs and what he has sold out of so far and he may intend to set up that archive section of his web-site as a remaining legacy for all I know.