CPA 44 ½ or 1885 Highwall

[M-Tecs]

I am thinking about upgrading my rifle for Black Powder Cartridge Rifle long range competition. I am trying to decide between a CPA 44 ½ or a quality Highwall like a Meacham, Ballard or a C Sharps. Any recommendations?

[MT Chambers]

ALL 3 are tops, with CPA being the most "customer oriented", but for me it would depend on which action design you like most, the '74 Sharps, the '85 Highwall, or the 44 1/2.....I've come to prefer the Stevens (CPA).

[drcook]

What chambering are you thinking about ?

I have a bunch of CPA's. One of them is a dedicated 45 2.6 with a nbr 5 profile 32" barrel, I also have a set with a 30" nbr 4 in 45 2.1 (45-70) and a 32" nbr 4 in 45 2.6 (45-100) and 4 others in various calibers, some having barrel sets for my wife and kid and some dedicated.

The CPA's have extremely fast lock time and the advantage of being able to switch caliber simply by changing barrels.

If you do decide to buy a CPA, wrap the threads a little with teflon tape. keeps them from having metal on metal and inducing wear.

They are very accurate. You can save 500.00 if you do the wood yourself.

[M-Tecs]

Thanks for the replies. Currently I am shooting a 45-70. All my molds are 45 cal. I am going to stay with 45 cal. but I am open to 45-90, 45-100 or 45-110.

I have shot both the Meacham and the C Sharps Highwalls but I have never seen or handled a CPA 44 ½. I have read a lot of good things about them. I have always been a Highwall fan. I am not really a '74 Sharps fan. It will be a CPA or a quality Highwall. I have also heard good things about Ballard Highwalls also.

Cost is a factor so I would go with an unfinished stock if I get the CPA. Normally I do my own barrel and stock work on my own and my friends NRA Highpower competition rifles. I really like how the barrel changes on the CPA 44 ½.

Thanks again for the info, Joel

[drcook]

If cost is a factor, then Meacham's are probably out of the budget, they are a bit pricey. I just went and looked at his website and he has a rifle there, not all that special in my opinion (my opinion to repeat myself) and for what he is asking with double set triggers you can buy 3 CPA rifles and finish the stocks yourself.

I don't think that C. Sharps offers a double set trigger option. If their actions are all original in dimensions, you could get a double set from Ballard but those are an extra $465.00 for the lower tang and trigger assy.

Do you have any experience with the bigger cartridges ? For the 45-110, you would want a gun in the 13.5 lb range to be able to shoot it all day in say a gong match. 13 / 13.5 for a 45-100 also. A 45-100 has the advantage that Starline brass is available and reasonably inexpensive as opposed to 110 brass. ( I do have 2 110's so I am speaking from first hand knowledge).

I even have a 45-90.

If you decide to go the CPA route and are interested in stock oil to get the below color (in fact this is one of my CPA's) then pm me an email address and I will put you in touch with the supplier. It is a reproduction of the old Winchester red stock color based on a true oil finish, not synthetic. It takes about a month or more to get a really good finish due to the drying time in between coats (if you want what is considered a AA or AAA finish)

I did this stock. I am going to back over it I just got some 1000 and 1200 grit paper and it will be even better yet..................I wet sand the oil finish into the wood, not on top of it.

In the last picture, the middle two are unfinished at the time the pic was took.

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2063/10245039/18392501/403249438.jpg

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2063/10245039/18392501/403249435.jpg

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2063/10245039/18392501/299611374.jpg

[M-Tecs]

Nice job on the stock!!!!! I see you like the 44 ½’s. Excellent point on the Starline 45-100 brass. I have some trigger time on both 45-110’s and 45-120’s. A friend has Shiloh Sharps 74's in both 45-110 and 45-120. I find the 45-120 to be surprisingly brutal.

If I have to I can afford a Meacham or a Ballard but this will be a competition rifle and not a work of art. I can get a C Sharps 1885 action for $1195 and do the barrel work and stock myself. I am a toolmaker by trade and I have the ability and equipment to manufacture my own actions. I just don’t have the time. I normally do my own barrel work simply because very few smiths have the ability to work to my standards.

I like the looks of the 1885 better but the really issue for me is what’s the best designed action to build a BPCR on. Some claim the CPA 44 ½ is a better action design than the 1885’s

[John Boy]

M-Tecs - you first have to decide which style you like best. I shoot 1000yds with these rifles and haven't decided which one is more accuracte ...
45-70 Pedersoli Sharps
45-90 Pedersoli Sharps
45-70 Uberti HiWall
45-70 CPA

The advantage as drcook detailed is the CPA can have multiple barrels on one receiver and 4 types of stocks (Silhouette-Schuetzen-Sporting and Benchrest). Mine has 32-40 & 45-70 barrels now with a 38-72 and 40-65 barrel being fitted. In addition you only have to buy one vernier sight and if you are into scopes, just move one scope from the blocks to the different barrels. And to make the switch easier, buy a set of Warne Quick Detach rings. I have a 16mm set of them attached to a long eye relief scope that I swap between 2 different German Schuetzen rifles. Also have a 15X Litschert and a 12X Fecker with a set of Quick Detach rings to use on all the CPA barrels

[drcook]

Here are some of the other ones. The one in the middle is a purpose built 110. It has a heavier than normal 34" ROUND barrel and weighs 14.5 lbs. With a 110, more weight is better, as long as you don't have to shoot it offhand. This is definitely a cross-sticks gun.

The 120 is hard to get shooting accurately. Even the 110 is bordering on the edge of efficient combustion. On a cool humid Ohio morning, both my 45-100's and both 110's will belch fire and spit pieces of still burning powder out the end.

If you want just a competition gun at a good price without spending a bunch of money, I had a Pedersoli rechambered to 45-110. The bottom picture is of a 200 yard target shot WITHOUT doing load development. I just put 108 gr of Goex 1F in a case behind a 550 gr Hoch Long Range bullet and shot it.

I pulled the shot in the 21 ring


http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2063/10245039/18392501/299611370.jpg

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2063/10245039/18392501/402785250.jpg

[EDG]

I have never seen or handled a 44½. does this action cock itself when opened like a Highwall or does it require manual cocking.

[MT Chambers]

No you must cock it manually, either that or mines broke.

[drcook]

As stated, you have to cock it manually. Nope, yours is not broke, either that or all mine are also......

[Tatume]

Does the CPA 44-1/2 action have a half-cock notch? Does it have a rebounding hammer?

[Tatume]

Hi Folks,

No answers, but I ordered one anyway. Mine will be a sporter in 45-70 with part round 28" barrel. It will be a birthday present from my wife. They have a half-cock notch, by the way.

Take care, Tom

[drcook]

Sorry, got involved when you originally was asking the question and I forgot. I just checked 3 of mine.

1. halfcock notch - I checked 3 of my rifles and while it is there, you have to go very slow to find it. in 6 years of shooting them, I never really knew it was there, nor did I have any situations where I thought I should have one

2. rebounding hammer - yes. the hammer does not hold the spring loaded firing pin down.

3. at least in my guns, the firing pin is encapsulated and provides a path out the bottom of the action in case of a blown primer

===================

why 28" on the barrel length. if you are going to hunt with it, probably, but for a target gun, IMO the 30" barrel is better

what profile barrel did you order ? #4 ? my 70 is a #4, the 45-100 is a #5, we have lighter ones in 38-55 for my wife and daughter.

if you wrap the barrel threads in teflon (you will have to play with it to get the right number of layers) then you can prevent metal on metal contact and it really tightens the assembly up.

this is a 200 yard target, 5 shots off cross sticks, soule sights, black powder that I shot. they can be quite accurate.

My Shilohs and my CPAs are my favorite rifles

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2063/10245039/18392501/294782708.jpg

[Tatume]

Hi Dave,

Yes, it will be a hunting gun. It will have a Baldwin short range rear sight and a blade front. It will also be fitted with blocks for a Lyman Super Target Spot scope, which I happen to have and that is not being used right now. I ordered the lightest barrel weight, the #2. I'm sure it will be plenty heavy for me.

Thanks for the information.

Take care, Tom
_________________________
BTW, Ph.D. and professor of mathematics, but most folks call me Tom

[drcook]

a 28" #2 is possibly going to weigh close to what a marlin lever action 45-70 does.

Did you ask Gail what the rifle will weigh ? I will try and remember to weigh our 38-55's and post the weight for you.

[uscra112]

On all 5 of my original Stevens 44 1/2 rifles, the hammer has a half-cock notch, and the link has a finger on it that moves the hammer to half-cock when you open the action. I have never seen a rebounding hammer on one. Are posters here suggesting that CPA put a rebounding hammer in theirs? Bad idea. the inertia of the hammer should be there to resist discharge pressure against the firing pin. Rifles with true rebounding hammers, (like my Hopkins and Allens) tend to let the primer extrude into the firing pin hole if the cartridge is loaded to any kind of pressure. I just can't believe that CPA would do such a thing.

[drcook]

Let's make sure we are talking about the same thing and maybe I am misinterpreting "rebounding hammer". The CPA action has a spring loaded "Mann-Neidner" firing pin. When you pull the trigger and lower the hammer, it will come up to and possibly touch the firing pin but the firing pin does not move.

Or move any amount that can be detected by simple visual observation. That doesn't say if we put some precision indicators in that it doesn't move a couple thousandths.

You can push the hammer forward and have it push the firing pin forward. However it is not retracted away from the pin when at rest, meaning there is not daylight between the hammer and firing pin.

With my Sharps, when the hammer is down, it is down against the firing pin. With the CPA, when it is down, you can push it forward and then it pushes the firing pin forward.

When the block is dropped and reclosed, the hammer is put on the half-cock notch.

So maybe my interpretation or what a rebounding hammer is wrong.

The following statement is based upon one of my rifles, I did not check all 6.

When the hammer is at rest, after being gently lowered, it will hold a piece of paper in place that is .0015 thick. I do not have any feeler gauges that I am willing to cut down and see if there is any gap or that at rest the hammer moves the firing pin a couple thousands.

But, as I said, the firing pin does not stay protruded like a Sharps does.

Now full on BP loads don't generate the pressure that smokeless does, I still shoot 98 gr of powder under a 540 gr bullet in one of the rifles and have seen no indications of primer flow.

[Tatume]

Here's another question. Will it cause undue wear to use a CPA 44-1/2 as a take-down rifle?

[drcook]

Here's another question. Will it cause undue wear to use a CPA 44-1/2 as a take-down rifle?

That is why I said


If you wrap the barrel threads in teflon (you will have to play with it to get the right number of layers) then you can prevent metal on metal contact and it really tightens the assembly up.

I have read that some folks have had the barrel threads get loosened a bit. After the first assy, dis-assy with teflon tape, it sort of embeds itself into the metal (barrel threads) pores/residual machining roughness. Subsequent applications of tape continues the process.

I am not talking about so many layers that you have to use a pipe wrench (just kidding) or a barrel wrench and vice to put the barrel on, but simply enough that it becomes a little snug but can be still turned in by hand. Sometimes 1, maybe 2 wraps will do it.

I use the thin white teflon tape. The yellow is too thick. I buy the cheapest I can find at Lowes (or where ever) and it is pretty thin.

The thread V ees tend to cut through the tape when the barrel is screwed in. That is ok. All you are wanting to do is fill in the machining tolerance and keep it from being metal on metal.

It will take a little experimentation until you get it just right. Once you do it once, it will make sense.

We have 3 of them that are multi-barrel sets. My wife and daughter's have 38-55 barrels and 38-70 barrels. My 45-70 also has a 45-100 big brother barrel.