springfield rifle opinions

[garbear]

I am thining the herd and have decided that instead of taking a different rifle into the back coutnry I am goin to narrow it down to 0ne go to rifle. I have been looking at springfield m1a. I am leaning to the scout squad model, but while checking things out local I found a AR10 with a 16 inch barrel and priced about the same.

Here is my requirements.
reliablity
30 cal in semi auto
reasonable accurate out to 300 yds
proven rifle


Here is the considerations in the order of which one I am considering.

Springfield M1A scout squad rifle
Springfield Socom 16
Springfield M1A base model.
AR10

Garbear

[Gtek]

First- I AM BIASED- The Ljungman desisn which was used in the development of the AR series by Mr. Stoner throws up in its mouth everytime it is fired. The only reason the military has not upgraded this design to a piston system is COST. The M1-A is not that much heavier, but it really boils down to what YOU want. I am screaming into old and crusty, my mentor crowd handed me the Garand, M1-A and 1911. That feels right to me, the younger crowd thinks the black gun feels right. Good Luck with your mental volleyball. Gtek

[nicholst55]

The AR-10 design has not proven itself to be terribly reliable in the past, and still hasn't overcome that issue even in the ultra-high dollar Stoner SR-25/M110 versions. It's your money and your choice, but I think I'd choose the M1A, personally. Or an FAL.

[Moondawg]

None of the above. I would take a good bolt gun with an 18" barrel chambered in .308. Unless, you think you might have to stand off human wave attacks of terrorists, a bolt gun is the ultimate in reliability. It just isn't tacti-cool.

[161]

I'm going down the same path as you. I ordered a scout with a walnut stock. I looked at the Ruger GS in left hand but decided on the SF. I just shoot paper an steel with a 308 can't hunt deer with one here.

[Larry Gibson]

Frankly from jungles to mountains I've never found a shorter rifle to be ay real benifit when I've gone into the back coutnry . In the late '70s I shortened an M1A barrel down to 18" and remounted the flash suppressor. Shot the barrel out, put a standard 22" barrel back on and use it just as well. I've had numerous M1As and M14s with standard barrels over the years in some pretty dense places, I'll keep mine at 22" + the suppressor.

As mentioned; the AR 10s are not proven yet, the M1A is. But, as always, the choice is yours.

Larry Gibson

[garbear]

Frankly from jungles to mountains I've never found a shorter rifle to be ay real benifit when I've gone into the back coutnry . In the late '70s I shortened an M1A barrel down to 18" and remounted the flash suppressor. Shot the barrel out, put a standard 22" barrel back on and use it just as well. I've had numerous M1As and M14s with standard barrels over the years in some pretty dense places, I'll keep mine at 22" + the suppressor.

As mentioned; the AR 10s are not proven yet, the M1A is. But, as always, the choice is yours.

Larry Gibson

Thanks Larry. I'd just go with an ar15 since I am very familar with the care and use of the rifle. I am confident in my use of it. I want a bigger caliber to be used for anything I might encounter out here. Ranges are usaually long.

I am hoping with practise I'll get proficient with the rifle. Any publications for marksmenship with the springfield m1a would be nice. other sytem is a garand and many like those but if I get one I want one with a synthetic stock.
Garbear

[akajun]

Id go ar10. Dont worry about the whole "poops where it eats argument", With standard weapons maintainence and not slobbering it with oil, the AR10 is plenty reliable, and way more accurate than a non lugged m1a will ever be, even in 16 inches. All three of my lr308's shoot under an inch out of the box.
M14's require cleaning and mainence too, dont clean the chamber or forget to grease the roller, you will have problems. I grew up shooting m1a's/m14s in Highpower, they do break down, and often, which is why the armorers were always walking the line at Perry. BTW I still love the 14, and am having a double lugged gun built as we speak, so Im not biased, just a realist.
I have several ar15's( various lowers, WOA and RRA uppers) and ar10's (dpms lr308's)that I shoot on a regular basis, I only clean them every 3-400 rds, and that is only because I start getting off call shots at 600, not for reliability issues, then again I only lightly lubricate the shiney spots on the bolt carrier and upper, and face of the trigger. Too much oil attracts too much soot. I have not had to shoot an alibi in 3 years

[Larry Gibson]

garbear

No problem going with what you're comfortable with, While I have 2 M1As I also have acouple ARs also. As akajn mentions, with proper maintainence they can be serviceable. The M1A is proven to be more reliable under adverse onditions is all. The orginal AR10 was fielded by Portugal and they managed to lose their colony with it. Hard to say if was because of the rifle though. I also believe the Neatherlands fielded some. No other country has officially adopted it. Portugal replaced the AR10 with the G3.

Numerous AR10s have been fielded in Iraq/Afghanistan in the last 10 years with specops units. They've not faired overly well and most have been replaced with....guess what? All the AR10s I've fired (when in SF and when training Rangers) have beed around 3 moa guns with M80 ball. With M118SB they are 2 moa guns. Pretty much the same as M14s in similar condition. The AR10 does have the potential for better accuracy with match grade ammo than a rack grade M14 though. However, a 2- 3 moa combat rifle is all that is really needed. Again though, if you are most comforatable with the AR system then going with that is probably your best bet.

Larry Gibson

High joe[smilie=s:, we all know you're lurking..............

[Jack Stanley]

It's no secret I tend to favor the Garand/M1A system I would like to point out . Using a snubby barrel with the 7.62 NATO round is going to be almost as impressive with muzzle blast and a Russian M44 .

A pal of mine has an AR10 with a short barrel and the brake will nearly take your hat off . It will remind you to always wear earplugs [smilie=l:

Another friend of many years ago had a Springfield "Bush" rifle with the short barrel , the Muzzle blast wasn't quite as bad as the AR10 . It still commanded your attention when you let loose a few rounds .

I don't shoot the AR15 much but it has been pretty reliable though I haven't left it out in the elements or tied it to a farm implement while in a dusty field to test it . The same with the Garand/M1A system , though with a Garand I did grease it up and take it out in ten degrees while snowing to see if it would freeze up .


In both systems I've always used the longer barrel without a problem .

Jack

[W.R.Buchanan]

I'm going to inject my vote here as I just can't stand it any more.

Garbear: You're going to be carrying a 9-10 lb gun around for endless miles in the field?

Are you a very big boy? This will get old real fast! Especially with all of the other equipment you'll be carrying.

A 7lb Ruger Gunsite Carbine is more on the order of what you actually need for this application. It's a bolt action .308 so it's dead reliable and it's magazine fed so you can whack off 10 shots without reloading pretty fast.

I doubt you're going to need semi auto capibilities, unless this is a tactical mission.

Either way I would recommend an Eberlestock Gunslinger pack, as that is the easiest way to carry a rifle for long distances.

I once carried a 10LB rifle around a gun show for 6 hours trying to sell it. Note: I said once!

I would go for a 5 mile hike with the gun of your choice before I struck out into the wilderness. This will help you decide if you really want to do this.

The choice of sling will make a big difference also.

Carrying a heavy gun on your shoulder will get old real fast, I suggest you test before you jump off the cliff here.

I just got a book on survival techniques for Costco. Well spent $12.76. Written by an X SAS guy. One of his main points is that survival in the backcountry is all about mindset and conservation on energy. Least amount of effort for greatest gain. Lightest load conserves energy.

I'd buy the book too.

Randy

[Char-Gar]

An autoloading rifle is a rifle for adverse human social circumstances. I don't see why anyone would want a rifle with that weight and number of moving parts as a back country rifle.

If a fellow just want to buy one, I guess that is his business. I have spent considerable time in remote places and luging one of those things along would be my last choice in rifles.

[Lonegun1894]

For a .308 semi-auto, I always pick a FAL personally as that is what I am used to, it works, and works well. My second choice would be a M-14 clone. I have shot AR-10s/15s, and while good guns, they just arent the most comfortable things to me personally. Having said that, I will have to agree that carrying one will get uncomfortable at come point in time, it's just a matter of how long it takes for it to get uncomfortable to YOU. I have done 25 mile hikes with my FAL, and done the same with a light weight .30-30, and even lighter .22s, and while I dont mind the weight of the FAL due to the capability it gives me, the lighter weight rifles do make for a more comfortable "walk in the woods". As has been said, there are few situations in the wild where semiauto capability is needed, unless it becomes a defensive situation where you need to deal with other people, but few if any wild animals pose such a threat. So in the end, unless you expect negative human interaction, I would go with a non-semi for the simplicity. But if you want semi anyway, choose whichever you feel most comfortable with and shoot best, and then keep it clean/oiled/taken care of, and it will return the favor.

[Four Fingers of Death]

One of the best rifles I ever had for backpacking into a rough spot was a 7.62 Israeli Mauser with the side mounted, through the butt style military sling. It didn't dig into my back, nothing sticking out and the side mounted sling allowed me to sling it across my back comfortably when I needed both hands to climb with. Easy to carry, lots of punch, cheap, mega reliable! I ended up putting a Williams foolproof sight on it and it was a sweet, deadly rifle.

If we were allowed to buy M1As and AR15s, I would no doubt own a few, but not what I'd want scrabbling up a rocky slope or crossing a river.

[Larry Gibson]

I've lugged both the M14 and M16 over hill and dale for many miles, including numerous 12 and 20 mile "ruck" marches. Never really found either one "easier" to carry than the other. I know which one I prefered when the shooting started..........

Perhaps having been an M60 machine gunner and also carrying it many miles over hill and dale made the other two "easier to carry.........:awesome:

Larry Gibson

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes,,, lugging an M60 would condition you. Anything would be better than that.

Randy

[Four Fingers of Death]

I was always the biggest and strongest and I got to carry the M60 a lot. Eventually they worked out I was the best scout so that got me out of that, but I then ended up being sent on recce patrols while everyone else was taking a breather or goofing off. Couldn't win, but I guess that goes with being raised to always to do your best. I did love the M60 though!

[ShooterAZ]

My vote goes to the M1A also. I have an early Springfield that has mostly GI parts including an HRA chrome lined barrel. It is one heck of a shooter, and completely reliable. It would be my bug out gun for sure. That and a ruck sack full of extra mags and bandoliers.

[Larry Gibson]

Sorry to :hijack:

I was the biggest guy, I was a lean, mean 140 lbs:D

1st is me in Viet Nam on Thanksgiving '65. 2nd is quite a few years (and lbs) later with an M14A1 (note the 2 M60s on the pallet).

Larry Gibson

[RU shooter]

An autoloading rifle is a rifle for adverse human social circumstances. I don't see why anyone would want a rifle with that weight and number of moving parts as a back country rifle.

If a fellow just want to buy one, I guess that is his business. I have spent considerable time in remote places and luging one of those things along would be my last choice in rifles.
I have to agree, Big difference between what a person HAS to carry in a military role and whats an acceptable burden to carry to walk around in lonely places for peace of mind against some unknown situation that more than likely wont occur.

Mr Gibson That 60 makes you look even thinner when you were 140 lb young man. I cant even imagine humping that thing around for even a 10K walk in normal conditions,What did that weigh with average ammo load out.

[Larry Gibson]

That particular M60 weighs in at 23 lbs......+ 150 7.62 rounds in the gun.....another 100 round belt in bandolier hanging off left side.....M1911 w/3 mags and 21 rds 45 ACP.....LBE with personal gear....2 canteens...knife.....1st aid kit.....pouch with 21 extra 45 ACP rds.....helmit......an aussie back pack (traded a poncho liner for it and the spats?) with C-rats and personal gear in it (were issued jungle rucks yet).....have no idea what it all weighed........ carried that M60 from "Oct '65 to April of '66.....used it a tad bit also..........

My assistant gunner carried another 400 rounds + the spare barrel and all his gear with the E tool to dig a position with...we seldom carried the tripod and T&E in the jungle when on foot. He was armed with a M1911 also (no rifle) and thus was dependent on me so he stayed close to feed the gun. My ammo bearrer also carried 400 rounds and all other riflemen carried 100 round bandolier. We used the M60s as machine guns, not squad automatic weapons (yes there is a tactical difference).

Larry Gibson

[x101airborne]

If I may offer another suggestion.... The FNAR.
I have an M-1A, a LR-308, a Garand, and an FAL. Of all four, I would take the FNAR Light. 22 inch fluted match barrel, synthetic stock with pistol grip, forward accessory mounts, adjustable for cant, cheekpiece height and length of pull. Fair trigger but it is easily tuned. Twenty round mags. I like mine for hog hunting a LOT! When I lay down on a group of pigs, I can almost keep the crosshairs on the hog through the shot. Recovery is so quick it is rediculous. And I THINK mine weighs around 8 pounds with scope and loaded mag. Anyway, I will carry mine most of the day and it is comfy as it gets.

[MBTcustom]

I know you said you wanted to stay with a 30 caliber, but I just thought I would mention that a friend of mine is sending the barrel of his M1A out to JES reborring to have it opened up to 358winchester.
Voila! semi-automatic superslamerator. Good for what ails ya.
Of course, you could do the same thing with the AR-10 or any other rifle chambered in the 7.62X51 cartridge.