50% More Lube...

[BCB]

Since it is raining today I decided to cast some 358429’s…

I have been getting some minimal leading shooting these in a Security-Six when sized to 0.358” and using wheel weights as the alloy…

I normally put Carnauba Red just in the lube groove, but today I decided to put lube in the crimp groove also…

Now then, being retired and since it is raining, I had some extra time and I did some weighing and found that by putting lube in the crimp groove also, it added nearly 50% more lube to the boolit…

I wonder if this increase in lube might help eliminate the leading?...

I know, go shoot them and see…

(Do I have too much time on my hands?)

Thanks…BCB

[44man]

No. You will get hydraulic expansion of the brass when you crimp. It is best to keep crimp grooves clean.
Use a softer, stickier lube.
CR is fine but it has proven to work best in certain calibers, not all.

[fecmech]

The 358429 carries a lot of lube, I don't think that's your problem. FWIW I have no problems with CR in the .357 mag or any of the other hard lubes. You don't give any load details or where the leading is, that may help to find the problem.

[BCB]

Well, for the most part, the leading is mere streaking at the muzzle...

That is sort of why I thouht a bit more lube might help...

It is actually with any of the slow burners @ around 1000-1200 fps range...

It is really not a problem, but I was just cruious as to whether a bit more lube might help some...

BCB

[PS Paul]

Obviously, the muzzle leading would signify a lube issue, not a sizing issue. I wonder, though, if your revolver suffers the same as many ruger revolvers: a constriction in the barrel at the threaded barrel to frame junction, which constricts the boolit, reducing diameter, to allow the boolit to suffer escaping gas which leaves lead in the remainder of the barrel??

Otherwise, a lube change (not necessarily more lube) seems a pretty good reach. I too have a security six (stainless) with a 6" barrel. Shoots great and helps with heavy loads to reduce felt recoil.

[madman]

I have been shoting Rugers for 25+ years now, I found that a .359 gc and my home made lube give me no problems at all I shoot WW's air cooled at around 15bn the accurate as heck and real easy to clean.

[badgeredd]

I have been getting some minimal leading shooting these in a Security-Six when sized to 0.358” and using wheel weights as the alloy…

I normally put Carnauba Red just in the lube groove, but today I decided to put lube in the crimp groove also…

Now then, being retired and since it is raining, I had some extra time and I did some weighing and found that by putting lube in the crimp groove also, it added nearly 50% more lube to the boolit…

I wonder if this increase in lube might help eliminate the leading?...

I know, go shoot them and see…

(Do I have too much time on my hands?)

Thanks…BCB

I am in agreement that if your gun can chamber a bigger boolit, you should try a .359" diameter boolit.

Canuba Red is a great lube in rifles and at higher velocities in everything I shoot, but IMHO one needs a softer lube in most pistols. I've found that mixing CR with BAC softens the lube nicely for handguns. I also agree the added lube capacity probably will not be of any real benefit in this case as the 359427 has adequate lube capacity even when used in a rifle.

Lastly, I doubt seriously you have too much time on your hands now that you're retired. I often wonder how I had time for a job before I retired! :lol:

Edd

[BCB]

I have been shoting Rugers for 25+ years now, I found that a .359 gc and my home made lube give me no problems at all I shoot WW's air cooled at around 15bn the accurate as heck and real easy to clean.


Yep, I don't have any problems using a checked boolit, even sized to 0.358"...

BHN of 15 sure sounds like #2 Lyman to me. Wish I could find WW that gave a BHN of 15...

[geargnasher]

Obviously, the muzzle leading would signify a lube issue, not a sizing issue. I wonder, though, if your revolver suffers the same as many ruger revolvers: a constriction in the barrel at the threaded barrel to frame junction, which constricts the boolit, reducing diameter, to allow the boolit to suffer escaping gas which leaves lead in the remainder of the barrel??

Otherwise, a lube change (not necessarily more lube) seems a pretty good reach. I too have a security six (stainless) with a 6" barrel. Shoots great and helps with heavy loads to reduce felt recoil.

Yes and no. Leading at the muzzle doesn't "obviously" indicate loss of lube like the persistent wive's tale would indicate, especially not in a short-barreled revolver. Dynamic fit is more likely the issue. Lube could be blowing out of the groove and down the muzzle and out of the cylinder gap due to excessive tolerances somewhere or lots of somewheres, or a restriction could be the issue. Loss of obturation from skidding (improper load/alloy balance) could open up trailing edge gas leaks and cause the leading, or it could be a restriction like you mentioned. Roll-lettering and front sights are also common Ruger barrel restriction points. Copper fouling could very likely also be the problem, we just don't have enough information to tell.

I would certainly ditch the C. red for that application, or at least water it down with a much softer lube.

Gear

[runfiverun]

ditto the softer lube part...

[BCB]

Some time back, I tried to soften the CR up a bit...

I tried adding liquid alox and melting it all together--wouldn't mix.

I don't have any other stick lubes or other lubes for that matter...

What could I use that might be a household item to soften the CR a bit?...

BCB

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Some good info here, and some of that from those with much more experience then I.

However, just let me relate a couple of things.

First, some streaks in the barrel. So ---------------

If it doesn't build up not to worry. Shoot and enjoy.

Second, in my shooting and load development in My RUGER #1S - 45/70 over the last three Summers, I have almost always had a touch of streaking in the last couple inches of the barrel.

So ---------------- it didn't cause any negative effects, at least none that 3 deer and 2 elk could tell me about. AND, if and when I desired it always cleaned out quickly, as said, if and when I desired to clean it out.

BUT, reading the info from LBT - Veral Smith, on his lubes --- he commented that using some or maybe all of his lubes would clean the leading from your barrel.

Hmmmmmmm? Well in my case it didn't. Good lube, but it didn't remove or stop the slight streaking.

However, during my testing I tested some of the White Label "BAC" Lube and what do you know, shot those test loads, looked at the barrel and it was cleaner then at anytime other then when I had cleaned it.

Lead streaks all gone, barrel appeared to be as clean and bright as the day it came from the factory.

Just what is the point here? Well, not to down play any of the great advice you have already rec'd, but maybe the solution to your, "problem" is as simple as the lube your using.

Keep us posted!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[geargnasher]

Some time back, I tried to soften the CR up a bit...

I tried adding liquid alox and melting it all together--wouldn't mix.

I don't have any other stick lubes or other lubes for that matter...

What could I use that might be a household item to soften the CR a bit?...

BCB

Vaseline or automatic transmission fluid (like Dexron III/Mercon for less stink than some of the more modern fluids). You can add more Vaseline than ATF to soften it without making it too slippery, if you use ATF alone you might have to add so much that it gets 'too much lube', but for pistol work you probably won't be able to tell the difference. If you get a wet, drippy lube star in warm weather, you softened it too much.

Alox and C. Red don't mix, several of us have discovered that recently, and it's still a bit of a mystery.

Gear

[PS Paul]

Yes and no. Leading at the muzzle doesn't "obviously" indicate loss of lube like the persistent wive's tale would indicate, especially not in a short-barreled revolver. Dynamic fit is more likely the issue. Lube could be blowing out of the groove and down the muzzle and out of the cylinder gap due to excessive tolerances somewhere or lots of somewheres, or a restriction could be the issue. Loss of obturation from skidding (improper load/alloy balance) could open up trailing edge gas leaks and cause the leading, or it could be a restriction like you mentioned. Roll-lettering and front sights are also common Ruger barrel restriction points. Copper fouling could very likely also be the problem, we just don't have enough information to tell.

I would certainly ditch the C. red for that application, or at least water it down with a much softer lube.

Gear

Perhaps "conventional wisdom says" would be a better choice of words than "obviously"? I didn't even think about the rollstamp constriction. I'm with you on the lube change....

[Eutectic]

Yes and no. Leading at the muzzle doesn't "obviously" indicate loss of lube like the persistent wive's tale would indicate, especially not in a short-barreled revolver. Dynamic fit is more likely the issue. Lube could be blowing out of the groove and down the muzzle and out of the cylinder gap due to excessive tolerances somewhere or lots of somewheres, or a restriction could be the issue. Loss of obturation from skidding (improper load/alloy balance) could open up trailing edge gas leaks and cause the leading, or it could be a restriction like you mentioned. Roll-lettering and front sights are also common Ruger barrel restriction points. Copper fouling could very likely also be the problem, we just don't have enough information to tell.

I would certainly ditch the C. red for that application, or at least water it down with a much softer lube.

Gear


Perhaps "conventional wisdom says" would be a better choice of words than "obviously"? I didn't even think about the rollstamp constriction. I'm with you on the lube change....

Gear's comments above are good ones earned by experience.....

I personally don't like "conventional wisdom says" as a choice of words. 'Wisdom' is much too strong of word to 'tie' to conventional..... Almost oxymoron like!
"Conventional knowledge says" would be a lot better. It is entirely possible to have vast knowledge and still have NO wisdom! (Look at our leaders) Yet wisdom requires knowledge as part of what's needed to get there.

"Conventional knowledge says" Muzzle leading is running out of lube. NOT NORMALLY as lube amounts are usually in excess. It can be a sign of a weak lube to the experienced eye. The average caster probably doesn't know how small the amounts of lube can be to still function. Most cast boolit designs carry too much lube!

"Conventional knowledge says" If a lube doesn't lead it's a GOOD ONE!! The wrong path to follow. I see threads here where casters buy big supplies of a commercial lube on this merit alone! Working on the "Extreme" thread I have had dozens of lube formulas that don't lead at all..... Some don't have accuracy at all either! Something to think about....

"Conventional knowledge says" A sticky lube is bad! Too soft of lube is bad! More times than not these attributes are in a lube that shoot good groups however. So sticky is OK; even preferred. BUT "Adhesive" is bad and applies to the lube being talked about here in fact. Adhesive qualities may be fine to some in a handgun where 8 minute of angle accuracy is OK. Or 'adhesive' may even work in hot weather conditions; but cold conditions become its Achilles Heel towards failure!

One last point..... I have never had a lube formula that contained ALOX 606 (what's in LLA thinned out) shoot accurate groups. It may shoot minute of angle for a few shots and then fouling 'shoots' accuracy to pieces! Yet I have never had a lube formula with ALOX 606 in it that leaded at all! IT will prevent lead even at high pressure and velocity right along with the very best formulas I have ever used.

Something to think about when a lube doesn't lead. You are still at square one knowing if the lube is a good one!

Eutectic

[geargnasher]

Part of the issue here is so many people just repeat what they hear or read rather than actually developing (or at least thoroughly confirming) the conclusions themselves. I keep reading things like "running out of lube", "twist is too fast", "bullet is too soft", "lube is too soft", "use magnum primers", "use a soft alloy so it will 'bump up' when fired", "MicroGroove rifling is only good to 1600 fps with cast boolits", "Dacron is unsafe as a filler", so on and so forth. The truth is there are very few absolutes either way, and the "depends" is how you go about things and what your knowlege level is. As for running out of lube, Dan from Mountain Molds did some tests with a .357 Magnum revolver using NO lube and only got a slight wash near the muzzle over the course of many shots. I have a rifle with a 29-1/2" barrel that shoots quite accurately and with no leading by only filling the space above the gas check with lube. Of course both the static and dynamic fit is immaculate, and I use an appropriate lube. The revolver bullet in question here holds enough lube for about ten feet of gunbarrel. Remember that most of the time a good bit of the lube is blow out ahead of the boolit before it's even free of the case, thus coating the bore ahead of the boolit. I think this mechanism does more for lubing a revolver bore than the lube that actually stays in the groove, but if your lube is too hard for the pressure it might not vaporize in time to work that way. Some "crayon" lubes that stay in the groove all the way to the target will allow an actual "lack of lube" leading condition because they don't flow at all at lower pressures.

Adding to what Eutectic said above, we want our lubes to be more cohesive and less adhesive.

Gear

[PS Paul]

Okay. "Conventional wisdom" is being removed from my lexicon as I write this. LOL! Gear and Eutectic, thanks for showing me the error of my ways. I will certainly try use more appropriate language in the future when and if I chime in. I will still chime in because I believe I do sometimes have something to offer, considering my decades of real experience....

The "wisdom" part: makes perfect sense to me..... as does the conventional "wisdom" of our leaders! On the money there too.

So I gather crusty coot recommends some of the white label BAC lube for pistols. Got some and ready to try that on my next go around (next Monday).

"Static and dynamic fit" are words I should like to use from now on. I think the dynamic fit was the thing I was trying to get at in my original post above, but did not have a good phrase to say it well enough. Dynamic is perfect.

38 years of shooting and 25+ years of casting and reloading and I STILL get opportunity to learn something nearly EVERY day. the very BEST thing aout this forum and the reason I keep coming back!!
Paul

[geargnasher]

I wonder if "dynamic obturation" would better describe it? Ultimately, to prevent leading we're doing things to ensure that obturation (positive gas seal behind the bullet) is able to occur at all times from case to muzzle. A typical revolver is an obturation nightmare, with oversized chambers, cylinder gap, elliptical or oval chamber throats, forcing cone jump, thread choke at the frame, various restrictions in the bore, tendency to skid after making the long jump to the rifling at high forward velocity and suddenly getting yanked into a spin, and so on.

If the gun isn't dimensionally correct, or at least reasonably so, problems will arise, and often get blamed on the wrong thing due to poor understanding. This is how the wive's tale gets going. Many shooters mistakenly believe that bullet lube is what keeps lead from "rubbing off" in the barrel. That is only partly true, since we know that most leading is actually created by particle deposit from gas leaks around the boolit. But it's gotta be the lube, right? So if you make that often erroneous assumption, the natural conclusion when muzzle-end leading is observed is that "it must be running out of lube", or "Uncle Rick's" famous lube formula must not be any good. I'll say that I have yet to meet a properly put-together revolver that didn't do just wonderfully with a mix of beeswax and vaseline, or beeswax and ATF, or just about anything this side of "crayon" lube. I've also had really good luck using boolits that had wimpy, shallow lube grooves, as well as huge, deep, square 'Keith' grooves. If the dynamic fit, meaning the bullet fits the internal dimensions of the gun straight and tight at every instant from from case until muzzle exit, then lube matters a lot less than many folks think it does. For the dynamic fit to be right, the static fit must also be right of course, meaning that the bullet as it sits in the case right before the primer is struck is properly sized and shaped to allow not only initial seal and a straight start into the cylinder throat, but is also prepared of the correct alloy and proper bearing and nose shape to achieve the dynamic seal properly later on in its trip through the gun.

Gear

[PS Paul]

I am starting to think maybe there should be some sort of "sticky" thread on the proliferation of "shooting wives' tales"? You know, those things that someone wrote that just won't die (like .45 Colt cases are weak or carbon will get into a cleaning rod and scratch the bore).

[Bigslug]

No. You will get hydraulic expansion of the brass when you crimp. It is best to keep crimp grooves clean.
Use a softer, stickier lube.
CR is fine but it has proven to work best in certain calibers, not all.

I think he's shooting his 358429 bullets in .357 brass, which usually necessitates using the leading edge of the front driving band as the crimping point to get the round to fit in the cylinder - - - In his case, his crimp groove is just another lube groove.

Have you slugged the bore? It's not unusual on Rugers for the bore to be crimped down slightly when the barrels are screwed into the frame. You'll probably be able to feel it when pushing the slug through. If that's the case, you're probably getting gas blow-by when the boolit clears the tight spot, which is torching lead off and depositing it in the forward section of your bore.

[HI-TEK]

Vaseline or automatic transmission fluid (like Dexron III/Mercon for less stink than some of the more modern fluids). You can add more Vaseline than ATF to soften it without making it too slippery, if you use ATF alone you might have to add so much that it gets 'too much lube', but for pistol work you probably won't be able to tell the difference. If you get a wet, drippy lube star in warm weather, you softened it too much.

Alox and C. Red don't mix, several of us have discovered that recently, and it's still a bit of a mystery.

Gear
In terested in reading incompatibility between Alox and other lube.
From what I know, Alox is an Oxidised product and is Polar in nature. It make it less able to mix with non polar materials, just like water and oil. The mixture needs material like "coupling agents" to allow mixing and satbility of mixtures.
It is just like adding dishwashing liquid to fats & oils to wash Pots and Pans. The detergent emulsifies the water and oil.

[HI-TEK]

I wonder if "dynamic obturation" would better describe it? Ultimately, to prevent leading we're doing things to ensure that obturation (positive gas seal behind the bullet) is able to occur at all times from case to muzzle. A typical revolver is an obturation nightmare, with oversized chambers, cylinder gap, elliptical or oval chamber throats, forcing cone jump, thread choke at the frame, various restrictions in the bore, tendency to skid after making the long jump to the rifling at high forward velocity and suddenly getting yanked into a spin, and so on.

If the gun isn't dimensionally correct, or at least reasonably so, problems will arise, and often get blamed on the wrong thing due to poor understanding. This is how the wive's tale gets going. Many shooters mistakenly believe that bullet lube is what keeps lead from "rubbing off" in the barrel. That is only partly true, since we know that most leading is actually created by particle deposit from gas leaks around the boolit. But it's gotta be the lube, right? So if you make that often erroneous assumption, the natural conclusion when muzzle-end leading is observed is that "it must be running out of lube", or "Uncle Rick's" famous lube formula must not be any good. I'll say that I have yet to meet a properly put-together revolver that didn't do just wonderfully with a mix of beeswax and vaseline, or beeswax and ATF, or just about anything this side of "crayon" lube. I've also had really good luck using boolits that had wimpy, shallow lube grooves, as well as huge, deep, square 'Keith' grooves. If the dynamic fit, meaning the bullet fits the internal dimensions of the gun straight and tight at every instant from from case until muzzle exit, then lube matters a lot less than many folks think it does. For the dynamic fit to be right, the static fit must also be right of course, meaning that the bullet as it sits in the case right before the primer is struck is properly sized and shaped to allow not only initial seal and a straight start into the cylinder throat, but is also prepared of the correct alloy and proper bearing and nose shape to achieve the dynamic seal properly later on in its trip through the gun.

Gear
Thanks for excellent advice. It is the most accurate one I have seen for quite some time.
To cure what you described, and in the majority work well, you can use a bonded dry coated hard cast pills, and no streaking or Leading as the coating prevents that from happening.
Have a look at Bayou Bullet website, and some U tube videos on subject.
These coated pills have been used to overcome such problems in Australia for nearly 20 years.