Round ball info

[NSP64]

I'm fairly new to muzzle loading and was wondering why you have to cast round balls from pure lead? I mean doesn't the patch act like a sabot ? could a harder cast ball be shot fast ? or even loaded in a plastic sabot then shot ? just thinking out loud, any help would be appreciated.

[ktw]

You can use harder material for roundballs, but they tend to be hard to start at the muzzle, particularly with a tight ball/patch combination.

You are more likely to get away with a harder alloy in a smoothbore than you are in a rifle.

-ktw

[piwo]

I could tell the pillow ticking was cutting or fraying when I tried wheel weights in my muzzle loader. I used a tight fitting configuration, and I could tell a difference at loading. A tight fit is not a bad thing, but if the patched begins to tear or shred, that's not going to be a good thing. I think plenty of guys use harder bullets, just think its a question of the right "fit" materials.

[Moose]

Right on, piwo- - It really is a question of 'right' fit of patch, lube, bullet diameter, and so on. O.K., the primary reason for "soft lead" for patched roundballs is so we can get maximum expansion from a slow-moving boolit. I know that a lot of round balls are anything but round by the time they get fired. Wanna check that out? Dry load your favorite patched RB load, then blow it out of there with air or Co2 into a stovepipe full of old, clean rags. That way you can examine your boolit. Is it still a sphere, or more like a roundnose roundbase something or other? Thing is, most folks patch too tight to start with, and at any time you ram a soft roundball with any force, you have deformed it. As long as you can deform it the 'same' each and every time, all is well, more or less. But that is the real trick, isn't it? As one old-timer put it, the patched roundball should just "slide" down the bore. I think the current Muzzle Blasts has the Bevel Brothers sounding off about the 'hard/soft' concept.

[mooman76]

I've used WW lead for years because I never had soft lead til now anyway. Works fine!

[gregg]

RB's will bump up to fiil out in a barrel.
I would hate to hunt big game with hard RBs.
Other wise give it a try. Heard harder balls will
work well in CB revlovers. Always whated to try it.

[waksupi]

I've shot ww RB's since around 1973. Never had any problem with them, kills well with deeper penetration, less expansion, clangs gongs effectively, and makes holes in paper, if that is your thing.

[R.M.]

Anything but dead soft balls don't work well in Cap and Ball revolvers. It puts too much stress in the loading lever trying to seat the ball in the cylinder.

That's what I've found anyway.
R.M.

[piwo]

I've shot ww RB's since around 1973. Never had any problem with them, kills well with deeper penetration....

I'll have to take you're word on that one Ken. No animal I've shot with my pure lead has stopped the ball from passing completely through, so perhaps penetration into the tree behind the animal might need to be measured. :Fire:

I only hope I shoot enough animals from enough ranges that I could actually recover one!

It was that thought when I joined this forum in November last year: cast something a little harder for an elk hunting trip.
I didn't end up taking the rifle, but it is something I would like to experiment just to know what the differences are.........

[fishhawk]

i have recoverd 2 .58 RB from whitetails both were frontal shots at about 35 yds both pure lead balls and there was very little deformation to both but the way they traveled in the body there must have been another shooter on the grassy knole never thought they could travel like that in the body

[Blammer]

I've shot pure lead RB for a long time and just for grins I cast some with WW. They shot fine contrar to what everyone says....

then I shot a RB of WW into 8 1 gallon jugs of water lined up back to back at a distance of 20 yards. 80 gr of FFG. I got penetration to the 8th jug. the RB was perfectly round! I miked it every which way, i could load and shoot it again!

so that view of the south end of a north bound deer... I'll take the shot next time!

[KCSO]

Have any of you ever dry balled it? THEN you wil find out why to use pure lead! There have been a time or two when I wished I was shooting rubber bullets as I tried to get a grip on a dry ball with a screw on the end of a rod.

[fishhawk]

your not a muzzleloader shooter untill you dry ball it, but FFFFG in the touch hole or into the drum is a lot easyer than the ball puller. i don't even carry a ball puller in the possables bag any more just a jag and worm

[Blammer]

I just carry a small bottle of soapy water.

If you ball/patch is stuck half way in, add a bit of soapy water to the top. let is soak for minute. use rod and finish pushing load down' onto charge. Shoot quickly.

an old timer showed me this and said he has fixed many a stuck ball in MZ's at the range from them city slickers.... if no soapy water a really good hawking spit down the brl will work too...

[Blammer]

hmm dbl post...

[waksupi]

the only people who have not dry balled, haven't shot ML's much. There are those who have, and those who will. I like the CO 2 bike tire thingies.

[R.M.]

I hit a deer with what you might call the pefect shot. Took out the front shoulder, cleaned the heart and lungs, just cliped the liver, and hit a rib on the far side, breaking it, and stopping against the skin, but not puncturing it. That .50 cal ball looked like a silver dollar. You could see the cloth weave pattern from the patch on the back side, but did it ever flatten it out. I never found a single hair or drop of blood. I was about to give up looking for it. It'd only travelled about 50 yards, but left no sign that it was hit.
The shot was from about 35 yards.

R.M.

[nelsonted1]

Hornady was selling 50 cal plastic cups that held round balls. Does anyone know if they sell the cups alone? Has anyone tried them?

[MT Gianni]

I tried some 17 or 18 years ago and found them wanting. Gun is a TC Hawken, pillowticking won an accuracy contest as well as plastic fouling occuring. Gianni

[piwo]

I've shot pure lead RB for a long time and just for grins I cast some with WW. They shot fine contrar to what everyone says....


Are you talking "everyone" in general, or here? On this thread, everyone who chimmed in shooting them said they shot fine, except out of a cap and ball pistol for technical reasons. The two other comments were loading observations if your combination was tight at the muzzle. I think it's established they shoot fine.........:drinks:

[DLCTEX]

WW round balls shoot fine in my ROA revolver, and with it's good loading lever it's not a problem to load them. Dale

[NSP64]

thanks for the input, been working too much lately and haven't done much else. finally got to read all the replies. Last year the girlfriend bought me a modern muzzleloader(inline/209/1-28) and I was wanting to try some cast round balls and am not sure what velocity to expect. with the fast twist would I need to shoot them fast? It shoots a sabot w/ cast 405 gr paper patch style boolit (I made) really good, but was wanting a lighter plinking setup.:Fire:

[ktw]

Rifles made for roundballs not only have slower twists, but also taller rifling. Both of these qualities contribute towards being able to shoot roundballs at higher velocities.

The inline rifles tend to have faster twists and shallower rifling. In my experience with friend's fast twist inline rifles, if there is a roundball load that will shoot well in your rifle it will tend to be a lower velocity loading rather than a medium to high velocity loading. This is what you want anyway with a plinker load in order to economize on powder.

Try 40-50 grains to start and adjust up/down from there until you find a load with acceptable accuracy.

-ktw

[Blammer]

I should have said everyone until I came here!

All the other boards where this topic came up (about using WW's for RB's) and some people in person says NO CAN'T shoot WW's....

[mooman76]

On a tight twist like an inline if you use too much powder the ball will jump the rifling and thus won't shoot as well. But there are always exceptions to the rule!

[NSP64]

so if I wanted to shoot RB then I should get anouther gun?:mrgreen: If I got another gun should I get a 1-60 or1-48 twist on it? want to shoot round ball only from it, as fast and accurate as possible. might be looking for a kit or assemble from parts any input would be helpful. I've been reading about the .32 cal on other posts and went by a local range tonight, there was a guy shooting a .45. he was good out to 110 yard offhand w/ open sights. that .45 sure sounded sweet:mrgreen:

[waksupi]

so if I wanted to shoot RB then I should get anouther gun?:mrgreen: If I got another gun should I get a 1-60 or1-48 twist on it? want to shoot round ball only from it, as fast and accurate as possible. might be looking for a kit or assemble from parts any input would be helpful. I've been reading about the .32 cal on other posts and went by a local range tonight, there was a guy shooting a .45. he was good out to 110 yard offhand w/ open sights. that .45 sure sounded sweet:mrgreen:

For round ball, and hunting, it is hard to beat a .54, with a 1-60 twist.

[fishhawk]

Ric get a mans gun! .58 with 1-72 twist, yea stuff is a little harder to find for it but the differnce between the 2 side by side when shooting is noticable.

[waksupi]

Ric get a mans gun! .58 with 1-72 twist, yea stuff is a little harder to find for it but the differnce between the 2 side by side when shooting is noticable.

Some years ago, I made a .62 flinter, 1-72, for an elk rifle. It came in at about 7 1/2 pounds. The only drawback, was it took 170 gr. 2f for it to really perform. Killed at both ends!

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Yes, 62's do that in a light gun! BvT

[NSP64]

Finally got me a RB mold. lee .490. cast some up from W/W (read BHN 10 on lee tester) got some ticking (.018) from wallyworld, went to range and loaded some up with 30gr of APP fffg . First string measured 5/8" for three shots at 25 yrds. moved to 50yrds and fired 5 shots measured 1 1/2" for 4 with a called flyer. stoped tonight and picked up some more ticking that measured .016 since the first was a little tight to load[smilie=1: just used some olive oil to soak patches(I cut them square) I had read about people washing them before cutting but not sure of the purpose.http://s157.photobucket.com/albums/t74/newsmokepole64/?action=view&current=target1002.jpg http://s157.photobucket.com/albums/t74/newsmokepole64/?action=view&current=target1001.jpg

[ktw]

... I had read about people washing them before cutting but not sure of the purpose.

The purpose is to remove the starch/sizing present in new material.

-ktw

[Rattus58]

For round ball, and hunting, it is hard to beat a .54, with a 1-60 twist.

Ceptn probably with a 58 with a 1-60 or a little longer... :) :drinks:

Aloha.... :cool:

[NSP64]

The purpose is to remove the starch/sizing present in new material.

-ktw

so what advantage is gained? does it make it easier to load?

[Rattus58]

Don't know... Sizing I think makes the material stiffer so they can cut it. Being stiffer, it might not hold the ball as easy as it could if it was soft and pliable, would be my guess, so they wash to make sure.

Aloha... Tom :cool:

[RBak]

Don't know... Sizing I think makes the material stiffer so they can cut it. Being stiffer, it might not hold the ball as easy as it could if it was soft and pliable, would be my guess, so they wash to make sure.

Aloha... Tom :cool:

I think it's all Tom said, plus..with the starch gone, it also holds lube a little better which makes both patch and lube more effective.

Now, having said that, I have to say that I know several folks who do not wash anything but denim (blue-jean material). Most of them insist it doesn't make a hill of beans difference. And they may be right. It's not my business to say.

However, my own experience has been such that if you mic the material before and after washing, using a micrometer with a "clutch" to determine the same pressure each time, you will, in most cases, find a difference.

Just how much that "difference" amounts to in accuracy is subject to interpretation by every shooter, in every gun.
Sometimes that difference in accuracy may be significant, sometimes it may be very slight, and sometimes absolutely no differences can be noted.

Although I subscribe to the theory that shooting a muzzleloader is not rocket science, I do strongly believe that quite often it is those "little differences" that can make all the difference in a real tack driver, and just another muzzleloader.

When it comes to shooting RB wheel weights, I believe with all my heart that here it's the patch that makes all the difference....which may require some extended experimentation to get it just right, to your own specifications.

Personally, I like wheel weights.:drinks:

Respectfully, Russ...

[Rattus58]

Hi RussB..... :)

It's amazing the arguments about lead vs wheel weights and what for.

The old timers used to use wheelweights for round balls so they could save their soft lead for conicals. I was always a skeptic about this till I tried a few WW round ball loads and dang.... once loaded shoot real fine.

Them Bevel Brothers of the NMLRA magazine, did a comparison test some time ago... well not real long ago.... on wheel weights (ROUND BALL ONLY) and had almost identical accuracy between wheel weights, commercially swaged, and cast pure lead.


aloha.... :cool: :drinks:

[NSP64]

went to the range today with chrono the .490 w/w RB's at 30 gr fff was only going 760 fps!!!! but they shoot so good I may have to take them out to shoot tree rats!:-D bumped the powder up to 60 gr and increased up to 1700 fps! accuracy at 25 yrds was still the same! I had forgotten my new ticking but found some 100% cotton round cleaning patches in my bag and used them with some spit on them:mrgreen:

[Rattus58]

Hmmmm..... double your powder, but 110% more speed..... lessee... triple yer power and triple yer speed..... :)

Aloha... :cool: :drinks:

[NSP64]

Sorry I can't read my own chicken scratch.I think I wrote 1200 instead if 1700:confused:

[ktw]

I have been loading 90gr FFFg under a patched round ball for a hunting load in both a 45 and a 54. (most accurate full power load in both rifles)

Thats good for 1600fps in the 54 caplock. I have never shot the 45 flintlock over a chronograph.

-ktw

[Rattus58]

Well I was just figgerin that 750 to 1700 or so... :drinks: :drinks:

[piwo]

For roundball, 90 grains of FFFg in my .54 flinter gives me @1750+fps through my chrony. It's a big chunk o lead, doesn't kick that much, and shoots pretty well. I've used more powder, gotten WAY higher velocities, but not the good accuracy..

It's my load till Ifind something better.

[waksupi]

1700 fps was always considered a good velocity level for hunting with a round ball. And it seems to be quite effective. Kill with the hole, not velocity. Find your most accurate load, and use it

[RBak]

For roundball, 90 grains of FFFg in my .54 flinter gives me @1750+fps through my chrony. It's a big chunk o lead, doesn't kick that much, and shoots pretty well. I've used more powder, gotten WAY higher velocities, but not the good accuracy..

It's my load till Ifind something better.



1700 fps was always considered a good velocity level for hunting with a round ball. And it seems to be quite effective. Kill with the hole, not velocity. Find your most accurate load, and use it

Same what these two fellas say. IMHO some really good things happen at about this velocity.
My own "best load" of 90 gr FFFg in my GPR Flinter with a PRB is amazingly close to the 1750 fps reported by piwo....

Respectfully, Russ...