Converting 223 to 300 Blackout brass Question

[Ford SD]

I am in the process of doing a 300 blackout build and I was wondering how you prep your brass

This is going to be a rainy-day project to try to get brass preped before barrel shows up

Do I need to aneal brass befor forming ?

What I was planing on doing was (Starting with cleaned 1 time fired 223 brass un crimped)

Aneal

form brass with expander/deprimer removed

trim brass (Long) very close to length using a Small bandsaw and a jig (for length)
(with around a 1/4 inch of brass to come off don't want to do it all on the trimmer
cutter will dull for one and it will be slow

Trim Brass (RCBS hand trimmer) --> going to work on a jig to set it up with a old cordless drill ( rcbs 3 way cutter on order)

De burr (will skip when 3 way arrives)

Do A short tumbler cycle to clean brass and get rid of trimmer shavings

Switch to a Progressive press

Run it back in the sizing die with the expander/deprimer reinstalled/ pop old primer
prime/neck expander
powder charge
Powder check die
Add Lead bullet/ seat
done

Does this sound doable or can I change something ?


Thanks[smilie=s:[smilie=s:

[Shiloh]

Two guys here I know do it much like you describe. .223 brass with split necks is now reusable as
300 Blackout.

Shiloh

[L1A1Rocker]

What I do:

1) deprime and resize using small base 223 die
2) long cut with a 2in chop saw
3)de bur and tumble
4) form with 300blk sizing die.
5) trim to final length
6) de bur and tumble
7) anneal brass
8) expand mouth to accept cast bullet
9) load on single stage press wieghing each charge (300 blk is very sensitive to charge varaince)
10) crimp with Lee FCD

I think that's about it, though I have consumed several adult beverages this evening.

[Ford SD]

Thanks for the replies

Now a easy question

Is the only difference between the 300 Acc and the whisper is it just the trim length different ?

[GRUMPA]

Thanks for the replies

Now a easy question

Is the only difference between the 300 Acc and the whisper is it just the trim length different ?

The Whisper has a smaller neck diameter and was not really designed to be as high powered as the 300 Blackout cartridge. You can safely use a Whisper cartridge in a 300 Blackout chamber but not a 300 Blackout in a Whisper chamber.

[L1A1Rocker]

Thanks for the replies

Now a easy question

Is the only difference between the 300 Acc and the whisper is it just the trim length different ?

As Grumpa said: You can safely use factory Whisper ammo in a BLK chamber but not necessarly the other way.

The 300BLK has a bit more free bore (to up the supersonic power) and a bit more neck area. The 300 Whisper is typically formed by necking UP a 221 Fireball, while the 300BLK was made with the idea of being able to make cases by chopping and necking DOWN a .223 case. People that make Whisper ammo from .223 cases often have to turn the necks down to work in their chamber. Such is not the case with the 300BLK chamber.

Good luck with your project.

[altheating]

I use a band saw to do my rough cutting. Clamp a piece of wood down to use as a guide. You can cut them down as fast as you can push them into the blade. I fasten a shop vac to the back of the saw to suck up the cutoff pieces. Them little buggers go everywhere!

[Moonie]

I have a cheap cut off saw from harbor freight that I use to cut them off. Form in a Lee FL die. Then trim to length with a lee trimmer in a cordless drill. Then I anneal and load.

[baker1425]

This is the best investment that I've made on forming 300BLK is the Worlds Finest Trimmer http://www.midwayusa.com/product/251243/little-crow-gunworks-worlds-finest-trimmer-300-aac-blackout

after sizing the clean 223 brass in the 300 die, and using a chop saw, the WFT trims and cleans quickly. I've not found it necessary to debur the cases after trimming.

[Ford SD]

I cut down a few pcs of brass to try, using a 4 band saw (I had the band saw just had to buy a metal blade--- cut like butter.

Now I have to make a jig to get it closer to length trimming 0.040-50 off with a hand trimmer is just too slow SSSSSSLLLLLLLOOOOOWWWWW
I would like it close enough 5 turns of the crank handle and it is done
Here come the jig

Another Question

Magnum or reg SR primers

Or does it depend on the Powder ??? I have never loaded a rifle round this small

Thanks

[L1A1Rocker]

I cut down a few pcs of brass to try, using a 4 band saw (I had the band saw just had to buy a metal blade--- cut like butter.

Now I have to make a jig to get it closer to length trimming 0.040-50 off with a hand trimmer is just too slow SSSSSSLLLLLLLOOOOOWWWWW
I would like it close enough 5 turns of the crank handle and it is done
Here come the jig

Another Question

Magnum or reg SR primers

Or does it depend on the Powder ??? I have never loaded a rifle round this small

Thanks

The research done by AAC said that there was no improvement to accuracy by using Mag primers. HOWEVER, some peopole have reported excessive vertical stringing in their reloads. Of those, some have reported switching to Mag primiers resolved their verticle stringing issue.

I have found that careful attention in weighing each charge makes a big difference. The cartridge is very sensitive to fluctuations in powder charge.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Suggestion: look at the case former/trimmer Giraud makes. If you shoot 223 and 308 as well, it is cost-effective.

Less speedy, but much cheaper; the Harbor Freight chop saw. It can be modified pretty easy, and does a very nice job. I got a friend to modify mine when I had 500 505 Gibbs basic cases to neck down about .150" and trim about that much off the case length.

The other option, check out the Forster unit that uses a drill press. Carbide Cutter.

[Jailer]

My process:

Harbor frieght chop saw with a home made jig to cut just below the neck
Form in sizing die
Trim with forster trimmer, 3 way cutter and cordless drill

3 steps to loadable brass.

I shot a quick video of my trimmer and jig and how I use it. I went slow in the video to show the process. When I'm actually trimming it goes much faster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ukuy8CRfko&feature=plcp

[klcarroll]

Has anyone else experienced this?

In the reforming of 5.56 to .300 AAC I have noticed that I get an occasional case where the shoulder is not as pronounced as it should be: ….Resulting in excessive headspace.

I am at a loss to explain this, as all the cases are run through the same forming die.

Could this be a brass hardness issue, ….where the harder brass “tapers” rather than forming an accurate shoulder??????

Since I check all my rounds in a Wilson headspace gauge, none of these rounds have made it into a magazine: …..But I would still like to solve the problem!

Kent

[GRUMPA]

At first I used to see that happen and really focused on what and why. After doing several hundred that common issue as I saw it was when forming, the lube made all the difference, I use a swage lube I make myself and this has helped loads. Another thing is when using spent cases if you do a bunch of once fired and then do a batch of 2x-3x fired they'll react differently.

Since I went to another operation of basically sizing the case twice that has all but stopped the wide variance from one piece to the next. Now I can do 1K runs and I don't care what case or head stamp the biggest fluctuation is .003, and that's good enough in my book, I use indicators for my work so I can keep an eye on things.

[klcarroll]

Grumpa;

Thanks for the response!!

Since I know that you are producing .300 AAC for resale, I hope my questions do not constitute "stepping on your toes".

1) I have been using plain old RCBS "gummy bear" case lube: ....Do you have a better recommendation?

2) When you refer to a "2 step" sizing operation, are you forming the case with the shoulder intentionally left "long", and then doing a final sizing as a secondary op??

I have my forming/trimming operation set up in a vertical mill: ...I run the 5.56 case into a forming die, and then hit it with an end-mill to trim to length. I then run the trimmed case through a sizing die to properly expand the neck, and full length size the case.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q84/klcarroll/S7301407.jpg

Should I be intentionally be leaving the shoulder "long" in the initial forming??


Thank you for your time and consideration!

Kent

[GRUMPA]

OK DANGIT!!!!! Now I'm envious, you got better toys than I can use on solar. Don't fret about the steppin on your toes stuff, I've had more than a few people ask me "How To" do this or that, knowledge should be shared.

Anyway Here's what I do:

Chop-saw to 1.360 +/- .005

Clean (I use the stainless media which also de-burrs the case at this point)

Thoroughly dry them.

Dip finger in swage lube, lube every other case on neck only (where the new one is going to be)

Put case with lube on it in the shell holder and bring the case all the way into the die and ream (that's my reaming operation) At that point according to my Wilson Chamber case gage it's almost at the high side and maybe.....say.....002 under that. (Don't ask what I use to ream with)

I do these in lots of 250pcs just in case something goes wrong and it will eventually.

After I do them all I put in the de-capping stem and set the die just a smidgen lower so that it is now going to make the case gage-diameter about .001-.002 shorter, punch out the primers and re-size the neck and the expander of course sizes the I.D. of the neck.

Then I de-burr and trim to length. (This is a custom made tool head, it does all 3 cuts at 1 time, meaning I.D. chamfer, O.D. chamfer, Face cut)

Final cleaning

Anneal if customer wants it done.

Sage Lube: Pure Anhydrous Lanolin (Randyrat sells it here:http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=96820) and Vaseline 50/50

I've done countless swaged boolits and at least 200k pieces of brass and still have half a small mason jar of it.

To make simply put a small canning jar or glass jar in small pot with it halfway filled with water (halfway meaning halfway up the jar and not the pot) add ingredients, heat and stir till melted, let harden overnight and use.

In all honesty I would never use an end mill for the simple reason it creates undue stress on the material, lets face it the cases aren't very thick and with that kind of a cut something is going to move somewhere.

If at any time the cases are formed with burrs on them your getting yourself in trouble, remove the burrs.

Lube: ever clean a mirror and put your finger on it and got a smudge, that's about how much lube I put on the top of the cut case for the first forming operation.

Anymore questions just ask.

[mstarling]

<chuckle> Overkill w tools

1) I made a holding block for 0.375" items (which happens to work for .223 brass). It closes with half a turn of a handle. I mount a Lyman drill press cutter in the spindle of my mill. The quill travel is limited to the correct depth and I batch cut bases the the correct length.

2) I then deburr the cut cases.

3) Run the cases through a small base .223 die to assure that anything fired through an M249 is sized back to normal. I use Dillon spray lube.

4) Run the cases through a 300/221 FL sizing die and the primer swage stage of a Dillon 1050.

5) I wash the cases in a water and with a good amount of Dawn detergent to get the lube off and clean the cases in a Thumler tumbler with stainless steel pins and dry them.

Am getting sub MOA groups with 220 gr SMKs and 225 gr Hornady HPBTM at 100 yards subsonic suppressed using 2400 powder and CCI 400 primers.

[klcarroll]

Grumpa & Mstarling

Thanks guys! ....I truly appreciate your input!!

Grumpa: ....What kind of "swaging lube" do you use?? (.....Or is it your own formula?)


Kent

[GRUMPA]

Sage Lube: Pure Anhydrous Lanolin (Randyrat sells it here:http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=96820) and Vaseline 50/50

I've done countless swaged boolits and at least 200k pieces of brass and still have half a small mason jar of it.

To make simply put a small canning jar or glass jar in small pot with it halfway filled with water (halfway meaning halfway up the jar and not the pot) add ingredients, heat and stir till melted, let harden overnight and use.




This IS the lube I use.

[Cardinal]

I too ran into brass that would not seat into my Wilson case gage.

The odd thing was that ALL of the cases that wouldn't pass were Lake City!

After researching this, it was determined that all of this brass had to have been fired from an automatic firearm (such as a SAW).

I called RCBS andthe tech there said he'd search through .223 Rem dies till he found one that would seat further down on the brass.

That "new" die worked! I was able to salvage 90% the brass that previously would't fullt seat using gravity's pull NOT pushing them in. Of the 10% that I resized but still wouldn't fit the Wilson .223 Rem OR the case gage, I reloaded them and fired in my Remington 788 .223 Rem bolt action rifle and as a result, all of thosenow pass the Wilson gage test!

I hope that my research helped solve this quandry.

[Cardinal]

Different manufacturers of Blackout dies.

First of all, I'm a pistol round reloader so when I tackled rifle round reloading, I had to learn a whole new set of procedures!

First rule I learned (from a good friend of mine) is that ALL rifle rounds MUST be lubricated or plan on the cases being stuck in the die.

Second rule I learned is that you MUST have a case gage for rifle rounds so I bought some from EBay (I got six of them for the price of one!), plus a Wilson .223 Rem and .300 AAC Blackout gages.

When I got my Blackout rifle, I also looked for a set of dies so that I could reload ammo for it. ALL of my other dies are either Redding or RCBS BUT I didn't have the cash flow to buy either of them so I settled on a Lee two die set.

The first set of cases would NOT load into my rifle so I called Lee. The tech there explained the press setup which was to take the sizing die down till it soundly touches the shell holder, retract the ram, and turn the die in 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn thus taking ANY slack out of the press assembly. That problem solved.

I was having a problem getting the rounds into the mouth of the cases so he said to buy an expander die. AND he advised me to buy a crimping die. So in the end, I had MORE invested in the Lee dies (four in total) than I would have spent on either the Redding or RCBS three die sets!

Before I started to reform the 223 Rem/5.56 NATO cases, someone said I need to anneal (sp?) the cases. As an experiment, I didn't anneal the first cases and I didn't have one problem reforming them. I have to say that from my experience, I didn't need to anneal any cases to get them to successfully reform.

Bullets: of all the different bullets that I have tried, THEE one bullet that my Red X Arms upper LOVES is the Hornady VMax 110 grain spitzer. That round is VERY accurate and consistent in my rifle.

I religiously follow the Hodgdon reloading data http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp.

I have found that Lil' Gun powder gives me the best results with the 110 grain VMax bullets. I also tried (due to the unavailability of Lil' Gun powder) H110 with good results. I also bought a chronometer so I could see what the velocities actually were.

Next, I tried 150 grain Sierra and Hornady bullets. The results were OK but my rifle liked the 110 grain VMax more.

PS: when I couldn't get ANY brand of primers, one local firearms shop happened to have a good supply of Fiocchi primers. I had never used them before but was desperate to get primers so I bought them a brick of them (which contained 1500 not 1000 like every other brand!). To my pleasant surprise, they are GREAT! BUT I haven't been able to find them locally again!