32-40 with BP in a Win 1894

[Chicken Thief]

So i got this 1903 Winnie 1894 in 32-40.
I have nailed smokeless to a cluster for 10 shots at 25m, but BP [smilie=b:
I use a Lyman 323470 Loverin 165gr boolit with SPG and gascheck. But that beast fouls to smoothbore in 4-5 shots. Blow-tubing only prolongs the agony 2-3 shots.
I have tried Swiss #4 (1½f) 40 grains heavily compressed and it is way to slow burning and soots badly!
I have tried @33½grains Swiss #1(4F) wich is way better but far from cry! I own and shoot several large caliber BP fuled guns and have for 15+yrs, so im no newbee, well actually i am, else i would'nt ask:oops:

So in short: Has anyone some good info about shooting this tiny thingy with BP. Pope and the guys did it but how did they do it?

Oh, it's a 26" octa barrel 1903 built Win 1894 with what i would describe as a nitro/jacketed rifling.

[bob208]

i have used bp in my .32-40 94. my load is 35gr 2f goex through a 24" drop tube. then a hard card wad a greese cookie and the same bullet you are using. i use spg lube. i was shooting at 100 yards. getiing 3" groups.

[Yadkin]

change bullet mold to 319247 and 40 grains of goex FFF

[Bullshop]

Duplex?

[Chicken Thief]

Duplex?
My next try for sunday.
Parallel with grease cookie, for comparison.

The main point is that a Winnie is a b!7c# to vipe, so my goal is at least 8 shots between any form of cleaning.

[Bullshop]

NASA lube?

[Chicken Thief]

NASA lube?

And what might that be, good Sir?

[45 2.1]

So i got this 1903 Winnie 1894 in 32-40. So in short: Has anyone some good info about shooting this tiny thingy with BP. Pope and the guys did it but how did they do it?

Pope duplexed his semi-smokeless black powder main charge with the new smokeless powder.b He made a dual chamber powder measure to do so..... That smokeless booster is very close to Trail Boss (which is an updated version of the old bulk smokeless).

[Bullshop]

NASA lube is a black powder lube that most folks that have used it agree is miles ahead of spg.
It has been discussed at length in these forums. Try doing a search and you should find something about it.

[L Ross]

Chicken Thief, I find that 3 or 4 shots in small bore rifles shot with straight black is about all I get with good accuracy. At that point I pull a Copenhagen can out of my back pocket that has a 3 foot long length of string trimmer cord in it. One end has a simple over hand knot in it heat welded with a Bic lighter. The other end is cut diagonally to a point with a sharp blade. I carry a half dozen patches in the snoose can. After I shoot about 3 squirrels I pierce a spit soaked patch on the sharp end of the plastic string trimmer cord and pull it through the bore, the knot acts as a jag. I follow with a dry patch and go shoot some more squirrels. Keeps me shootin' until I run outa patches or spit.

Duke

[Boz330]

I had the same problems trying to shoot BP in a Swede 8MM roller. I was using NASA lube which works well in my 38-55s and up. I think that duplexing might be your best bet.

Bob

[Chicken Thief]

I have loaded 24 pcs of the following:

3.0grains TrailBoss
30grains of Swiss #1 (4f)
and a 323470 boolit cast to @10BHN

Update on sunday.


@Bullshop
Where do i get my mittens on this wonder stuff?

[Bullshop]

Why from the Bullshop of course.
Ready for shipment $17.50 per pound + shipping.

[McLintock]

I can recommend Bullshop's NASA lube for your application. Using it in my '94 Winchester in 38-55, I could fire 10 rounds as fast as I could get a good sight picture and touch it off (typically 10 shots in 40 seconds or less), and have very good accuracy doing so; no time to wipe or blow tube it. This was for Cowboy Action long range matches, shooting at 200 yard or so. Off a bench and shooting slow, it would outshoot any of my smokeless loads I tried. But, you have to have a bullet with big enough grease grooves to do so, and no more then a 26" barrel. I used Swiss 1 1/2 and no duplex or grease cookie and won many a match with the combo, mostly shooting against smokeless shooters.
McLintock

[Nobade]

I would expect fouling problems using powder that fine. But your first post indicated it worked better than the coarser stuff. I would think if you duplex load it, you might want to go back to the bigger powder to see if it doesn't want to work better.

[w30wcf]

I would expect fouling problems using powder that fine. But your first post indicated it worked better than the coarser stuff. I would think if you duplex load it, you might want to go back to the bigger powder to see if it doesn't want to work better.
+1

Back in the early 1900's Winchester, in their catalogs, recommended FG powder for the .32-40 as does this 1935 DuPont Powder Pamphlet.....

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/blackpowdercharges.jpg

Personally, I would opt for 2400, 4227 or 4759 at 10% of the b.p. charge weight for duplex loading. In Sharpes Book "Complete Guide To Handloading" the recommendation is made for using DuPont Shotgun Smokeless or Schuetzen Smokeless. Of the two, DuPont Shotgun Smokeless is faster burning, and Schuetzen is slower and has a burning rate close to 4198.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Chicken Thief,
One other thought......if you are not using pistol primers with the Swiss b.p., I would suggest trying that as well. Several years ago when I, just for fun, tried black powder in the 30-30, that is what I used.

I was able to shoot a box (20) cartridges using Swiss FFG and a multigrooved LBT 160 gr bullet lubed with SPG without any loss of accuracy. Based on what I had read about b.p. in bottle necked cartridges I compressed the powder only about .05".

Accuracy was decent (1 1/2" @ 50 yards) but it was about double what smokeless will do in the same rifle.

I would also try a load using Swiss 1 1/2 with minimal compression along with the pistol primer and see how that does.

Good luck,
w30wcf

[Chicken Thief]

Oh, this chicken coop i call brain is but full of good info.
Next sunday i'll try duplexing Swiss #4 (1½f)

I have ordered a pound of NSAS lube, so the sky's the limit.

[Chicken Thief]

Duplexing 3.0gr TrailBoss and 30gr Swiss #1 (4f) went of like a fart in a diving helmet.
I shot 5 and they flew straight but it was a 5" pattern not a group.
Fouling was bad but way better than straight black.
I will go for Swiss #4 (1½f) next.

[Nobade]

I thought I would chime in on this thread and share today's experience shooting black powder in my 30-30.

Boolit was the RCBS 150gr. plain base cowboy design, cast from air cooled wheelweights. Lube was Bullshop's NASA. Load was 4.0gr. IMR4227 + enough Diamondback FFg, droptubed, to come halfway up the neck. Winchester pistol primers.

Rifle is a Remington 788, with a 1:12 Brux barrel. Normally shoots #311041 into 1.5 MOA or less at 100M with full smokeless loads.

As I was shooting I watched an interesting pattern emerge. First shot would go wild, the next three or four would cluster into about a 1.5 MOA group, then the next (maybe fourth shot, maybe fifth) would go wide again. I could wipe the bore and it would repeat. The interesting thing is I never felt any hard fouling at all, or leading. The duplexing seemed to work, but something was building up to mess with accuracy. And it had to have a fouling shot, never did the first shot from a clean bore go into the group. I was also impressed with the effect of firing so much powder through such a small bore. The pressures were way up there for black powder, primers were flat with the bolt face impressed into them. Cases were spotless on the outside, sealed perfectly. Apparently black powder can generate considerably more pressure in bottleneck cases than it can in straight ones.

Lessons learned? Well, I think that some sort of wad stack would help. Maybe two cards with lubed felt between. Problem is this boolit seats to the base of the neck and there isn't any room for wads. I also think developing a good wiping regimen is important. What it will take I don't know but I can see it is important. And maybe using Fg powder instead of FFg to calm it down a bit. All these things would be easy to try, just have to find the time. As it was I had fun with it, and made a tremendous amount of noise that had the other shooters wondering what was going on. I don't think I'll pursue this to any degree, but hopefully my experiences will help with your 32-40, which should work a whole lot better with black than the 30-30 does.

[Bullshop]

I think you found out what the old timers knew and is why they clung to thier 32/40s and 32 specials with 16" and 18" twists barrels when the 30/30 with 10" twist was new.
The BP fouling had greater effect on the steeper twist.

[MikeS]

I thought that when using a duplex load that the smokeless is supposed to be fairly slow burning, and that most pistol powders were too fast. With that logic, wouldn't Trail Boss also be too fast a powder to use in a duplex load? I also understand that SR4759 is a good powder to use in a duplex load due to it's low pressure. Is that correct? Will duplex loads really cut down on fouling that much? And the most important question, would any of these duplex loads be safe to use in an 1887 vintage Remington rolling block?

[Nobade]

From what I have read and observed, a grain of smokeless (I like 4227) is worth three of black. I never go above 10% of the charge being smokeless, and reduce the amount of black when duplexing. So a 70gr. charge of black becomes a 5gr. 4227 + 55gr. black charge to generate the same performance. This also reduces the need for compression of the black.

I shoot duplex loads in my Argentine roller and '73 trapdoor with no problem, but do not try to get more power than a standard load of black generates.