White powder recipe?

[colonelhogan44]

I have heard of a BP substitute that can easily and cheaply be made called "White powder" mentioned here (and other places) multiple times now, but I can't find any record of how it is made. It's potassium nitrate and sugar, I do believe.

Has anyone ever done it?

[Jim]

Yeah, I know about it. Don't waste your time. Not only does it produce very little energy, it fouls the barrel somethin' terrible!

[colonelhogan44]

Jim,

What was the recipe you used? Just a stoichiometric blend of sucrose and KNO3? I'm assuming you dissolved both components together, drove off the water to a paste and then pushed it through a screen?

[Fly]

As I have said many, many times before.Don't try & reinvent the wheel.It's nothing
new.If it was better, thats what we had been useing.

JMOHOP Fly

[Boz330]

I tried replacing the sulfur with sugar in a batch but just ended up with a very anemic BP. I know that doesn't answer your question but that was my experience. Supposedly you can leave the sulfur out and use straight CC but it raises the ignition temperature by 100C.

Bob

[colonelhogan44]

If someone has a recipe, I'd like to see it. I used a sugar KNO3 mix for rocket engines a few years back, and it made a lot of power in that application.

I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel. I know it probably doesn't work well. I just want to try it. It'd probably be (mostly) used for blanks in a cannon, where cheap is king.

[perotter]

I'll pm you the recipe latter tonite. I'm very short on time right now.

In cartridge rifles the muzzle vel will be the same as for BP. It doesn't work well or at all in muzzleloader that are not of the inline type from what a friend has shown me.

[I'll Make Mine]

Substituting the sugar for the charcoal is the way to go -- you still need the sulfur (igniter), saltpeter (oxidizer), and the sugar becomes the fuel. Complicating this, however, is that sugar contains carbon, hydrogen, and a little oxygen, compared to charcoal that's about 98% carbon with just a hint of hydrogen (in hydrocarbon residues that make real charcoal better than "activated", graphite, or anthracite) -- so the ratio of fuel to oxidizer needs to change.

Hydrogen is much lighter than carbon, but still wants half as much oxygen per unit; net result is, mass for mass, sugar wants more oxygen than charcoal -- so you'll need less fuel (sugar) than you would in black powder, but not a lot less. Instead of the classic 75/15/10 using charcoal, I'd probably start with 77/13/10 or 79/12/9, test, and refine.

In the end, you'll still produce a powder that fouls badly (unburned sugar is much messier than unburned charcoal), and you don't learn much; white powder was tried and abandoned a couple hundred years ago. If civilization has collapsed and you have sulfur and saltpeter, you can make charcoal more easily than you can find white sugar.

[shotman]

got to love the guys
that say WATCH THIS
Knew 2

[perotter]

Hydrogen is much lighter than carbon, but still wants half as much oxygen per unit; net result is, mass for mass, sugar wants more oxygen than charcoal -- so you'll need less fuel (sugar) than you would in black powder, but not a lot less. Instead of the classic 75/15/10 using charcoal, I'd probably start with 77/13/10 or 79/12/9, test, and refine.

In the end, you'll still produce a powder that fouls badly (unburned sugar is much messier than unburned charcoal), and you don't learn much; white powder was tried and abandoned a couple hundred years ago. If civilization has collapsed and you have sulfur and saltpeter, you can make charcoal more easily than you can find white sugar.

It don't need the sulfur to work. The standard WP is 66.5 KNO3 & 33.5 table sugar by weight.
Combustion make:
NUMBER MOLS GAS AND CONDENSED= 2.2520 0.3283

A 79/12/9 makes less gas.
Combustion makes:
NUMBER MOLS GAS AND CONDENSED= 1.3510 0.3259

Get the GUIPEP software. It truly cuts down on the time & money for working out these things.

Sugar was to expensive & rare to use for this until a few decades go.

[I'll Make Mine]

It don't need the sulfur to work. The standard WP is 66.5 KNO3 & 33.5 table sugar by weight.
Combustion make:
NUMBER MOLS GAS AND CONDENSED= 2.2520 0.3283

A 79/12/9 makes less gas.
Combustion makes:
NUMBER MOLS GAS AND CONDENSED= 1.3510 0.3259

Get the GUIPEP software. It truly cuts down on the time & money for working out these things.

Sugar was to expensive & rare to use for this until a few decades go.

Making less gas is less of a disadvantage than burning too slowly; the sulfur ignites more readily than the sugar and will let combustion spread through the powder much more quickly than is the case without it. The sulfurless version works well enough for rocket propellant (aside from the serious hazard of cooking a fuel-oxidizer mixture), but the sulfured version will be much closer to a rifle propellant.

As for cost of sugar, the military has never worried that much about cost; if white powder had been better than black, or even as good, it would have been used (the French used stuff called ammonpulver in WWI, it was terrible, but they could synthesize the oxidizer when they couldn't get real saltpeter and had a shortage of the strong acids needed to make smokeless propellant). And white sugar wasn't rare, even going back to the 17th century (though it was expensive then, because it was produced mostly by human labor, before there was a significant slave population to do the grunt work). Simply put, white powder wasn't used because it was so greatly inferior to black powder.

[colonelhogan44]

got to love the guys
that say WATCH THIS
Knew 2

What does that have to do with anything?

I may or may not try it, we'll see how cheaply I can find saltpeter. I can get as much sulfur as I want, living in a huge agricultural mecca. I also found some downed alder the other day, cut it up and stashed it for charcoal production.

[Boz330]

What does that have to do with anything?

I may or may not try it, we'll see how cheaply I can find saltpeter. I can get as much sulfur as I want, living in a huge agricultural mecca. I also found some downed alder the other day, cut it up and stashed it for charcoal production.

Check the BP making thread for suppliers. I just got 10lbs from Phil's General store or something like that. Check several for price, some of them rape you on shipping. Or you could just go to Walmart and get some Spectracide Stump remover.

Bob

[Oreo]

What is the silverish powder used in firecrackers? Its not black powder as far as I can tell but it sure seems energy dense and fast burning. Can it be made diy style? Any use for us?

[Jim]

What is the silverish powder used in firecrackers? Its not black powder as far as I can tell but it sure seems energy dense and fast burning. Can it be made diy style? Any use for us?

I used to play with stuff like that and the topic of this thread when I was a kid. I almost blew my hand off one day and decided it was a bad idea. I still feel that way. I'm not a chemical engineer or an explosives tech, so I leave that kind of stuff to those that are educated and qualified in such endeavors.

[colonelhogan44]

It can be made, but it's extremely dangerous. Way more so than black powder. IIRC it can detonate unconfined if you have more than several ounces in the same pile.

[357maximum]

OREO:

If you have to ask what flash powder is.....you should definately not be playing with it. IT IS NOT BP IT IS FAR MORE ENERGETIC AND FAR EASIER TO HAVE AN OUCHIE WTH. It has no business even being near a muzzleloader not to mention being in one.


For muzzlsstuffer use I have found BROWN POWDER to be the best thing one can make himself. It is the standard BP recipe using wheat straw charcoal in place of the willow wood charcoal. When properly ballmilled, mixed, and pressure puck corned it is a good thing for propelling a roundball.

[mongo]

These recipes sound like they make your black powder rifle a real sweet shooter.....

[perotter]

As for cost of sugar, the military has never worried that much about cost; if white powder had been better than black, or even as good, it would have been used (the French used stuff called ammonpulver in WWI, it was terrible, but they could synthesize the oxidizer when they couldn't get real saltpeter and had a shortage of the strong acids needed to make smokeless propellant).

The main user of ammonpulver in WW1 was Austria. The Germans may have used some. It was made & sold on the commercial market before WW1.

The biggest problem with it was from the phase change when the temperature changes. Although someone had discovered in the 1890's how to prevent this, the word never got out. DuPont worked on perfecting it into the 1920s(read their patents), because the smokeless powers used at that time weren't all that good.

Now that it is widely known how to phase stabilize ammonpulver, there is some interest in it again. Even Olin has worked with it as a propellant recently (read their patents). It is the simplest smokeless powder to make, but the burn rate is on the slow side.

[bruce drake]

a separate white powder recipe in a book called "Homemade guns and homemade ammo" written by a Ronald Brown (pdf easily found on a google search) suggests using potassium chlorate and sugar, equal measures mixed together dry for a blackpowder substitute which he rates on a scale of 1-5 as a 5 versus the 5 other whitepowder recipes he had in the book.
264931
I haven't tested the formula or process yet but just saw it in his book this evening. The original author recommended a half teaspoon of this powder for an ounce of #6 shot in a 12 gauge shell. He also warned that all of the whitepowder recipes in his book were hygroscopic (corrosive) and would lose potency if exposed to high humidity or open air.

Have fun folks! and make sure you keep all 10 fingers!

[waksupi]

a separate white powder recipe in a book called "Homemade guns and homemade ammo" written by a Ronald Brown (pdf easily found on a google search) suggests using potassium chlorate and sugar, equal measures mixed together dry for a blackpowder substitute which he rates on a scale of 1-5 as a 5 versus the 5 other whitepowder recipes he had in the book.
264931
I haven't tested the formula or process yet but just saw it in his book this evening. The original author recommended a half teaspoon of this powder for an ounce of #6 shot in a 12 gauge shell. He also warned that all of the whitepowder recipes in his book were hygroscopic (corrosive) and would lose potency if exposed to high humidity or open air.

Have fun folks! and make sure you keep all 10 fingers!

Be VERY careful with potassium chlorate. VERY volatile. A match head size pile placed on an anvil and struck with a hammer can launch the hammer fast and far.

[Good Cheer]

Made black in the late sixties, learned why powder mills have their buildings widely separated and decided to not be doing that noooo more.

[biffj]

What is the silverish powder used in firecrackers? Its not black powder as far as I can tell but it sure seems energy dense and fast burning. Can it be made diy style? Any use for us?

The firecracker powder is a black powder with the addition of powdered aluminum. The aluminum makes the report much sharper so you get a louder crack and it gives a bright white flash to the explosion. The aluminum is what makes is shiny silver. Its definitely not something you want to use for propellent.

Powdered aluminum is added to some explosives like TNT and ammonium nitrate based explosives to increase brisance which makes the material shatter the casing or whatever is intended to be broken up more readily than without the aluminum.

You can find all this info with more detail on the net if you look.

Frank

[ofitg]

Bruce Drake -

Using a percussion revolver, it appeared to me that the 50/50 blend of KClO3/Sugar was significantly more powerful than black powder.

I would suggest starting with KClO3/Sugar weighing HALF (or less) of your normal black powder load, and do not attempt to exceed normal black powder velocities.... proceed at your own risk.

[dondiego]

Be VERY careful with potassium chlorate. VERY volatile. A match head size pile placed on an anvil and struck with a hammer can launch the hammer fast and far.

Very true and especially when in the presence of sulfur or phosphorous!

[KCSO]

If you want to rust up a gun in a hurry shoot that stuff, worse than pyrodex!

[dondiego]

If you want to rust up a gun in a hurry shoot that stuff, worse than pyrodex!

I believe that Pyrodex has potassium chlorate in it.

[arcticap]

I believe that Pyrodex has potassium chlorate in it.

Pryodex contains potassium perchlorate.
Potassium chlorate is not listed as an ingredient.

[Mr_Sheesh]

KClO3 + phosphorous + a little sulphur was used in some toy caps and what was in the old railroad "torpedos" they used to communicate with the locomotive, they'd bend a couple lead straps attached to the casing of the stuff onto the track. Stuff is indeed sensitive (you don't want to even TRY to spoon mix it, that'd get you a KABOOM; if I had to make some I'd wet each component separately and then mix those solutions, THAT is safer, though I wouldn't stay near the stuff frankly.) I sure wouldn't use that anywhere near a BP gun, you'd set it off earlier than you wanted, probably. Nasty stuff.

[ofitg]

Here's an old thread which touched on the "KClO3 and Sugar" idea - I included range reports in posts #86 and #88 of that thread -

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?273725-homemade-gunpowder-questions-and-ideas/page5

[justashooter]

potassium chlorate is an aggressive oxidizer. mixed 40/60 with powdered aluminum it is lit with cannon fuse and an explosive.

[toot]

I can't Imogene that putting SUGAR in / down your barrel would do it any good?!!