Whiterabbits Matchdot test pt1.5

[Whiterabbit]

So, anyone who's seen it knows I've been having a devil of a time getting my BFR to shoot. It's my only pistol, I've shot 95% handloads I've been trying to develop, and it just doesn't group.

I've shot approaching 2,000 rounds over the past year or so trying to make it shoot. I've been working on fundamentals, technique, several powders, several bullets, jacketed, soft cast, hard cast, solid copper. Primers. A couple rings. different thread locking compound. remounting in multiple positions. Nothing is consistent. Some good days, but only just. Never consistent.

I found reason to suspect my Ultradot and sent it back to the company asking them to look at five issues. They fixed one and said it shot just fine, citing two 10 round targets they sent me that look like they are airgun rounds.

Subsonic has been so kind as to offer a second opinion on the matter. Afterall, it could be me as the shooter, my eyes, my loads. Human error really could be at the heart of this!

While I've been waiting for subsonic to have the time to test my ultradot under recoil, I took it upon myself to source a 1x EER scope and try my pistol, my loads, my technique with a different set of (non-open) sights.

Here are the results:

Here's the setup, and my benchrest style:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/20082505674a752a59.jpg

first 5 rounds I ever shot at any time at any range with this 1x scope mounted, 50 yards:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/20082505674a6ad3d0.jpg

Second group of 5 (plus one extra round from the previous firing period):
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/20082505674a7dc176.jpg

Then to try consistency. Here are the next 7 groups, all 5 round:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/2008250567537322d6.jpg

Do you know how hard it is to put crosshairs at 1x on a .75" dot at 50 yards? I had no idea. Anyways, best group is 1.05", worst group (with the one called flyer) is about 4".

This target represents EVERY ROUND I put downrange directly after mounting this scope.

Consistent.

Next 100 yards. Different testing:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/2008250567537b96c3.jpg

20 round group, 5.75" CTC. Lots of room for improvement. Maybe my load? my technique? better rests? I'm not done here.

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At this point, in my troubles, I'm willing to isolate out my gun, my loads, and my technique. Even though I can't shoot worth squat at 100 yards (yet!) the groups are too consistent and show too much potential (many stacked holes in the groupings) at 50 yards.

Either that UD is **** and UD's CS is bogus, or my eyes can't see a red LED in a consistent location. But since that dot is clear and round, I'm willing to bet subsonic's part 2 will reveal groups that open like CRAZY compared to other sights.

[subsonic]

I needed an excuse to buy something, so I bought an 12" Encore barrel in .480 that I'm sending to have made into a .475 Linebaugh. That should be a good test subject for your UD and I won't have to monkey with my BFR's zero... Should have it back in a couple of weeks or so and start working with it.

Looks like that 1x scope is working! Hang in there - that's better than most people will beleive a revolver will shoot under any conditions and it's only gonna get better from here.

What load are you shooting those groups with?

[Whiterabbit]

three different loads on that 50 yard target.

500 grain LEE leftovers with who knows what powder. H4198, IMR 4198, or SR4759. That's lower left, with 4 of 5 holes touching.

The rest are 425 grain ranchdog bullets going about 1050 fps. half the loads are H4198, the other half are IMR 4198. I THINK the IMR's are 24-26 grains, the H4198's are definitely 27 grains. All roughly the same speed.

At 100 yards, all 20 rounds are hardcast 425 grain ranchdogs with somewhere between 24 and 26 grains of IMR4198, I'd have to check my notes for the charge. Should be around 1050 fps.

[subsonic]

Ranchdog is going out of business, so if you want one of those 425gr molds and don't have one, now is the time to act.

I just bought 3 of his molds, including a 3x3 pb/gc version of the 425.

[Whiterabbit]

I should try some 425 hardcast without the gascheck to see if it's worth buying a PB mold. I did hear about RD going away, very sad. :(

[subsonic]

When I get a chance to cast, I'll send you a few. Dont' know when that will be though! Lotta irons in the fire. I bet they will shoot well. I wonder if your whole problem all along was the UD?

Is that Nikon a buckmasters?

[Whiterabbit]

It's a buckmaster.

I do think the UD was the problem all along. It was the only constant in the whole shebang short of the gun and the shooter.

Take your time, I'm in no rush. I still have 800 gas checks or so. :) For me, gas checks are currently cheaper than finding hard lead.

[Whiterabbit]

I needed an excuse to buy something,

By the way, always happy to provide :)

[jh45gun]

It's a buckmaster.

I do think the UD was the problem all along. It was the only constant in the whole shebang short of the gun and the shooter.

Take your time, I'm in no rush. I still have 800 gas checks or so. :) For me, gas checks are currently cheaper than finding hard lead.

My opinion: A scope will out perform a dot sight for accuracy no doubt about it. I have grown to like dot sights for some applications speed being one of them .But unless you would have an expensive 1 MOA dot sight your not going to get the accuracy of a crosshairs and a scope. Most of the dot sights I have shot were 3MOA or 4 and they work as intended hitting a target fast and accurate enough for hunting or knocking down pins ect. Any group I have ever shot with a scope vs Dot sight the scope won hands down no matter what the weapon and that included my crossbow too.

[Whiterabbit]

really don't want to get into the whole "dot size matters" thing.

but I noticed sometimes I was fishing for the dot. But with crosshairs, no matter what I can see something in the scope window, so finding center is really really fast.

Just a matter of setting the fast focus just right so I can keep both eyes open while firing.

[44man]

Several things I can't make work. I can not group with a frame rest. I use a sandbag at the front with the muzzle just ahead of the bag so I do not break the bag. Yes, barrel rest! I use a bag under the grip, nothing hard. I tried all kinds of stuff under the butt but a sandbag is best.
4198????? I had pressure and velocity excursions with it. From 1600 to a jump to 1800 fps.
You still got some decent groups.
Boolit weight? Maybe going too heavy.
If that is a 45-70 mine loves 300 gr to 420 gr. My most accurate is 317 gr.
I have to think the rest and loads are the problem. Many powders WILL NOT WORK.

[Whiterabbit]

I'll try a barrel rest next time. I really like soft foam under the rear though. I can turn up the rest until I'm quite low then mash the but into the rear rest and it sponges right in. It makes my grip and stability VERY consistent.

Didn't seem to matter much comparably at 50 yards. At 100, I was blown away by how minute changes in grip put holes out of the black.

Maybe 4198 works because I have .8" of bullet in the case? I have tension up the wazoo. If I remove the gas check or cast soft (and remove the gas check) then I can't hit paper at 50 yards or the bullets fly through sideways (only if hardcast. Otherwise the miss paper. :)) Tons of unburnt powder. But with a gas check, soft cast 400-500 grain bullets get me maybe 1 "flyer" in 20-40 rounds that drops to 900 fps. The rest are just fine. Hardcast, they all seemed just fine. No idea if the 900 fps does much to the group 'cause all those tests were done with the ultradot. I suppose I should just be glad I never shot my chronograph.

I've tried 300-400. 300, 340, 370, and 405 to be exact. 300's are OK, 405's are pretty good. ALL the 340's (I bought a box of 500) went through the paper sideways and that was loaded with H110, AA#9, trailboss, and 4198. The 370's did the same, I was only loading 4198, maybe 4759. My gun just does not like mid 300 grain bullets.

[44man]

4198 shot stupendous with the Hornady 300 gr bullet. It was with cast that it gave me trouble.
Anything that changes recoil will throw you out. Any change in thump into a bag or foam will change barrel rise.
I tend to think you are not shooting fast enough. You are losing stability.
My 317 gr is doing 1632 fps. Stay with 4759 and do NOT download. You will have ignition problems and could even stick a boolit with no ignition.
This is what I use;
317 gr-31 gr 4759.
330 gr-31.5 gr
350 to 360 gr-30 gr.
325 gr-31.5 gr.
420 gr- 28 gr.
378 gr-30 gr.
448 gr-26 gr.
420 gr PB-28.5 gr.
You are safer adding a tad more powder with 4759 then you are reducing it.
H110 is a VERY poor choice as are some of your other powders.
Unique and 2400 really sucks.
I use Dacron over 4759 but it still shoots well with none.
I use Fed LP mag primers.
Now these are 45-70 loads in the BFR.
If you want to try a load, use Varget with the heavy boolits. I have not tried it yet but it works in some of my single shot guns, burning completely.
Get away from 900 fps, it is after all a 45-70, not an ACP.

[Whiterabbit]

I try to stay below 1300 fps, it is afterall a 500 grain bullet no a 180! :)

But I've loaded both 4198 and 4759 into the 1200's, and H110 to 1350. And the cases (in a clean cylinder) will fall out after firing from gravity. So I am sure I can get to 1400 with the 425. None of the holes are sideways, the idea would just be to try to tighten up the group size at 100 yards. My goal is <2" on a good shooting day, and <4" consistent. With 100% hit capability on all days except bad days (we all have them!) on a 12" steel offhand.

I still have half a pound of 4759 or so so I'll definitely give it a revisit. Now is actually the perfect time. I just emptied 100 brass and have them ready to go now :)

The 460 is about 75% of a 45/70, and that's worked so far for "getting me into the ballpark" to consider (consider!) loads for the 460. Using that logic, for your 420/448's, I'm looking at 20 grains or so. That's interesting, because I've been loading I think 22 grains for the 500 grain bullet. so I'm already uploading the load as compared to what you have. Technically. I'll need to go through my load book again to confirm all the data.

But given how much power I get from so little 4759, should be easy to work up to the 1300-1400 mark with the 425 bullets and see 100y group size.

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Only thing I don't like is the reticle is a straight crosshair. My leupold VXII is a target dot and having something round in the middle REALLY helps line up shots on paper.

[44man]

If you drop 4759 to 27 gr with a 420 gr boolit you can have a failure to ignite.
It is strange such a fast powder can do that. Loads had Dacron too.
None of my loads are hot, just what seems to group best.
I tried LR primers and accuracy dropped off.
The 45-70 BFR might be the most accurate revolver I ever had but the large case capacity, free bore and barrel length makes it very picky for powders.

[subsonic]

Rabbit's .460 might need some stuff that's a little different than the .45-70.

I would add AA1680 to the list of powders to try, heck, I'd even send him some to try, but the USPS won't let me!

[Iron Mike Golf]

When it comes to rests, I have had good experiences with resting the barrel on the bag and the frame snugged up to the rear of the bag. I need a couple of layers of duct tape on the bag for protection. I fold up a towel under the grip. I shoot a scoped Redhawk and M500 this way.

[Whiterabbit]

my loads were 22 and 24 grains. That got me to 10XX fps and 12XX fps with the 500 grain bullet, respectively.

I've got 50 rounds loaded with 24 and 25.6 grains now with the 425 ranch dog. ended up so perfect I have about 10 grains of powder left in the can. Lucky! So we'll see what the 25.6's can do. Should be quite the Elephant load.

On another note, part of me really wants the 4759 to work, it meters way way better than my 4198.

[44man]

my loads were 22 and 24 grains. That got me to 10XX fps and 12XX fps with the 500 grain bullet, respectively.

I've got 50 rounds loaded with 24 and 25.6 grains now with the 425 ranch dog. ended up so perfect I have about 10 grains of powder left in the can. Lucky! So we'll see what the 25.6's can do. Should be quite the Elephant load.

On another note, part of me really wants the 4759 to work, it meters way way better than my 4198.
I have 45-70 boolit molds to 560 gr but never found a need to try them in the revolver past 420 gr.
Babore sent me some 350 and 360 gr boolits that would poke one hole at 50 yards.
Someday I will try some 500 gr boolits. I have the great Rapine 500 gr Gov't boolit.
I just do not know how much 4759 to use with heavy boolits. Info is just not there. I don't know if it is safe. I might lean to Varget.

[Whiterabbit]

I've tried powder folks use in 223 or 308, didn't like it. Specifically 4895, velocities were wild and unburnt powder everywhere. I didn't shoot many of those and pulled the rest. 4198 is about as slow as I'll go.

No need to bless the safety of my reloading/loads. I know my limits and when I'm edging up to them I proceed with my head screwed on straight. I'll let you know if they weren't safe if you'd care to know.

Speaking of no info, NO info is out there on using any powder in 460 except standard pistol powder (4227, H110, #9, N110). Noone recommends heavy bullets. Everyone loads and tests on the X-frame, not the BFR or tender which have VERY different barrel twists and results on paper.

[44man]

I've tried powder folks use in 223 or 308, didn't like it. Specifically 4895, velocities were wild and unburnt powder everywhere. I didn't shoot many of those and pulled the rest. 4198 is about as slow as I'll go.

No need to bless the safety of my reloading/loads. I know my limits and when I'm edging up to them I proceed with my head screwed on straight. I'll let you know if they weren't safe if you'd care to know.

Speaking of no info, NO info is out there on using any powder in 460 except standard pistol powder (4227, H110, #9, N110). Noone recommends heavy bullets. Everyone loads and tests on the X-frame, not the BFR or tender which have VERY different barrel twists and results on paper.
Exactly. It can get scary.
I have sat for a month doing searches before even dumping powder in a case.

[5shotbfr]

to me the .460 just screams for a case full of black powder and a 350gr or so boolit .

[Whiterabbit]

haha. I am SO doing that to 5 rounds or so, mix them in a box of 50 and let a buddy shoot those at an indoor range.

you know. after I test them for safety. But the laughs would be worth it.

[44man]

haha. I am SO doing that to 5 rounds or so, mix them in a box of 50 and let a buddy shoot those at an indoor range.

you know. after I test them for safety. But the laughs would be worth it.
I love it! :bigsmyl2:
Make sure you post about it.