Can Propane Be "Dirty"?

[Alan in Vermont]

I set out to smelt a bunch of range scrap this morning. I use a plumbers pot where the burner mounts on top of the tank on about a 2½" flange which is part of the valve assembly. When the burner is screwed on there is no way for anything to get "in there". Last time I used it it seemed to be getting a bit lazy so I took the burner off and ran a tip cleaner through the orifice. That brought back my jet engine roar, for a while, then it started tapering off again. This morning I took the burner off before I started and cracked the gas valve,,,,, and got a puff of dust! Got a little more when I cracked it a second time. Before anybody asks, this was NOT a cloud of propane vapor. There is a high flow shutoff in the valve which clamps off the gas flow almost instantly, so quickly that you don't even get any propane stink when you crack it. I blew it out with an air hose as well and got just a bit of dust that time as well. I cleaned the orifice again and put it back together. Ran well, for a while, then started cutting back. Took it apart again and blew dust out of the valve again. FRUSTRATING!!!

Has anyone ever heard of propane being "dusty"? Seems like if it was there would be all manner of plugged up propane appliances and I've never heard of anything like that. The tank is galvanized on the outside and it's fairly old. I'm starting to wonder if it is also galvanized inside and the zinc is breaking down, making the dust.

It's annoying, this thing melts lead like mad when it's working right, doesn't work quite so nice when it gets throttled back by a plugged orifice.

BTW, I added 93 lbs. of ingots to my stash. Gotta get up to the range and do more mining so I can build the pile up.

[turmech]

The propane can be dirty as you call it and clog your orifice. This can happen from minerals in the gas, but most likely your tank is the culprit. If not your tank any tank it is stored in on it way to use (like propane supplier, delivery truck, or hardware store tank you buy from). You can install a drip leg to catch the trash in the gas. This will stop you problems if they are coming from the LP gas.

I would suggest a Google search for LP gas drip leg. This search would probably explain how to assemble one better then I could (or maybe a pic). If the Google search does not help I am will to try to explain how to build one (really pretty simple but pic worth 1000 words they say).

[Guesser]

Yes, most LPG has been contaminated before it reaches the end user. Motor fuel LPG systems have screens for the large pieces, flakes of paint, rust, solder, weld slag from the piping systems and the tanks. Then there is a very fine filter to take out the minute particulate that got thru the screen. The propane is all the same just the end application is different.

[Alan in Vermont]

The propane can be dirty as you call it and clog your orifice. This can happen from minerals in the gas, but most likely your tank is the culprit. If not your tank any tank it is stored in on it way to use (like propane supplier, delivery truck, or hardware store tank you buy from). You can install a drip leg to catch the trash in the gas. This will stop you problems if they are coming from the LP gas.

I would suggest a Google search for LP gas drip leg. This search would probably explain how to assemble one better then I could (or maybe a pic). If the Google search does not help I am will to try to explain how to build one (really pretty simple but pic worth 1000 words they say).

I know what a drip leg is but I don't see any way one could be rigged on a plumbers pot where the burner sits, directly coupled, on the top of the tank itself. It would take a lot of remodeling to adapt the burner to remote connection.

[turmech]

Yes it will be not typical to have a drip leg in such an appliance as you have, but if your clogging the burner is being caused by trash in the gas it should fix it.

It can be installed any where in the gas stream. I would look for any threaded connection and install the trap there (be it at the appliance, tank or in the hose). If you still have problems after fitting with a trap which forces the gas to turn and forces the heaver trash to fall to the trap then you know it is not the gas.

[iomskp]

I am a Gas Fitter and I spend half my day unblocking Propane Injectors, there are many causes, in my part of the world mud wasps love gas burners and small pipes also if there is any copper pipe in the line it oxidizers when heated and blocks the injectors, rust in the bottle is another one, just one thing you could try when you run the tip cleaner through the injector take it out first you could be just pushing the blockage back down instead of removing it, also when the injector is out open the gas for a split second to blast out any obstruction, but do this out side in a well vented area, I hope that this may help you.

[Marvin S]

There are filters for this but dont know if one would meet the flow needs you have. I put one on my Mr heater after ruining my first heater with crud from a bulk tank.

[Alan in Vermont]

OK guys, I appreciate your comments and I would love to be able to rig a drip leg on this thing. We seem to have a breakdown in communication going here. I have pointed out that the burner mounts directly on the tank outlet, granted it is a special outlet that I have only seen on plumbers pots. Short of a complete redesign of the unit there is no place to mount anything between tank and burner. A filter might be possible if it were a thin disc that could be incorporated into the gasket currently used to seal between tank and burner.

Pictures are of the complete unit assembled. You can see how the burner is direct coupled to the tank.

View looking down on the valve and connecting flange. There is no regulator, the burner inputs tank pressure through a single, quite small, orifice. It is not possible to blast dirt out of the valve with tank pressure as there is some sort of excess flow cutoff that snaps shut almost instantly when the valve is opened without the burner attached.

View looking into the burner assembly from the connection that mates to the tank valve. The hole in the center goes up to where the orifice is threaded into it. There is a gasket in there to seal the valve/burner connection.

Side view of the burner, the squiggly line shows roughly where the orifice is located in the burner. It threads into the closed end of the smaller tube. There are three holes in the casting where the two tubes overlap, I assume they are there to permit air to be drawn into the combustion area by venturi action. There is no adjustment for fuel/air mix, you get what you get and like it. The orifice will barely accept the smallest probe on a set of the file type tip cleaners used for welding torches, it's purty darn tiny.

I hope this clarifies things. It's not that I wouldn't put a drip leg on there, it's just that I don't see any way to do that. Anything that would raise the burner higher would also necessitate some sort of additional base width. This thing sits just on the ring on the bottom of the tank. With the pot full it's really a bit testy to stir as 35 lbs. of melt makes the whole thing top-heavy to a fault. I tried using a 12 inch dutch oven which works much better for getting the jackets out of the melted range scrap. Great idea but my butt tightened up so bad it was two days before I could pass anything.

[turmech]

I see what you mean. I don't see a way to have any type of drip leg or filter.

If the inside of the tank looks anything like the outside the tank is a likely cause of contaminating to gas and plugging the burner.

Have you just filled the tank? Is it a new problem? I ask because the filling may have broken loose trash that was on the sides of the tank. If just filled the sediment may settle to the bottom in time.

In future you may want to only fill ½ full and let it settle before use. I don't know if it will help but the sediment may settle to the bottom of the tank. It is really the only thing I can think that may help.

Sadly it just may be time to look for a turkey fryer used or on sale. This may prove cheaper and less frustrating than your current set up. Sorry I don't have any better suggestion.

[chambers]

I have used these for years. Most likely your old tank could have some rust in if you are experiencing rust flakes if the small orfice hole is plugging up. Your LP may have also been the issue with the rust coming from the truck or tank. The valve on top of your tank is also obsolete for the old plumbers pot, as I tried buying several from an LP manufactuer to upgrade several tanks. If you like your setup, buy a new LP tank and reuse your old valve. You will have a new tank with old valve. You may have to trim down the handle portion on new tank. The valve is screwed in the 3/4" opening. Use proper sealant on valve. The old valve may be hard to remove without proper valve wrench. A good LP distributor may help change it out or have an exchange.

[Alan in Vermont]

The outside of the tank looks so ratty becauase it was painted over galvanizing. It's the pain that is peeling now the zinc seems pretty sound. The dust I'm getting appears to be gray, like oxidized zinc. Assuming the interior is galvanized, which would have been hard to do in a vessel with only one opening, that might be the source of the dust.

I've been wondering about swapping the valve to a new tank. This setup belongs to a friend of mine who hasn't cast in years, it has been at least 10 years since the tank was filled the last time before I started using it earlier this summer. I'm also negotiating on a similar unit so I have one of my own. I'm working on getting into an indoor range cleanout in the next couple months which should bring in a decent amount of range lead to smelt out. It would be really nice to have two pots going for that one.

[lwknight]

Alan , I think you have an accident looking for a place to happen with that rig. Back in the day when that rig was made no one could give two hoots about safety.

The turkey fryers are inexpensive $40 - $70 bucks VS 1 trip to the E.R. $1500.00 even if they don't do anything.

[Alan in Vermont]

Alan , I think you have an accident looking for a place to happen with that rig. Back in the day when that rig was made no one could give two hoots about safety.

The turkey fryers are inexpensive $40 - $70 bucks VS 1 trip to the E.R. $1500.00 even if they don't do anything.

I don't seem to recall asking for any opinions about how "safe" my setup is. I'm comfortable using it with the smaller pot. I wasn't comfortable using it with the 12" pot so I don't use that one until I get a better base. I'm pretty good at figuring out what I'm safe with, thanks anyhow.

[Mooseman]

Alan, Can you cut a small piece of 100 mesh screen to fit in the tank outlet ? Maybe even a piece of scotchbrite pad to act like a filter...

[Alan in Vermont]

Alan, Can you cut a small piece of 100 mesh screen to fit in the tank outlet ? Maybe even a piece of scotchbrite pad to act like a filter...

That might be worth a try, maybe McMaster-Carr has such stuff,, good project for tomorrow. Thank you.

[waksupi]

Once it is empty, take it to a cylinder exchange, and get a new one.

[Mooseman]

Ric...
See post #8. I don't think they exchange that type of cylinder.

[cajun shooter]

The Problem is right in front of you as many of our members have tried to point out with out offending you.
You don't need a drip leg at all. You need to go to your nearest hardware or sporting goods stores that sell outdoor burners and purchase a new turkey fryer set up. The bottle does not come with them but you will get the proper set up and regulator. Purchase a new bottle and have it filled or go to Walley World and purchase an exchange bottle that is filled.
No gas company in Louisiana would fill that tank as it is way out of date and does not contain the proper safety valve.

[clintsfolly]

Alan Go find a old plumber and talk to him. My brother had the same burner setup his was doing the same and I think he was told to replace the tank. He never did as his was stolen before he got to it. With this in mind you maybe able to remove the valve(on empty tank)and clean the tank. Clint

[Alan in Vermont]

The Problem is right in front of you as many of our members have tried to point out with out offending you.
You don't need a drip leg at all. You need to go to your nearest hardware or sporting goods stores that sell outdoor burners and purchase a new turkey fryer set up. The bottle does not come with them but you will get the proper set up and regulator. Purchase a new bottle and have it filled or go to Walley World and purchase an exchange bottle that is filled.

OK, I'm glad to see you got it all figured out for me. If a "tone" can come across in a written yammering I would put your tone as pompous and overbearing. You need a little clarification added to your pontificating about what I "need to do".

First off, TWO does not make for "many of our members"! Your and one other are the only comments that have gone in this direction. Pretty much puts you in the minority.

Second, if I wanted a turkey fryer I would have one, I don't, therefore I don't, so we can put DONE to that as well.

As for;


No gas company in Louisiana would fill that tank as it is way out of date and does not contain the proper safety valve.

You don't know if it is out of date or not and I doubt you are psychic. According to the regs for refilling that tank it DOES have the right valve. Industrial tanks are not held to the restrictions that general use tanks are. So far I've had no problems getting that tank filled, in fact nobody has even commented on the valve ot thean to remark about how they don't see many of those.

I see you've got something like 3,500 posts, hopefully a few of those had more to offer than this one did.

No go away and don't bother me again unless you have something of value to add.

[oneokie]

Pay close attention to number 4 at this link:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/cmps_index.php?page=Terms

[clintsfolly]

A side note if you mark with paint " For Welding Only" on the old style tanks you can get the filled at a propane fill station!! Clint

[Mooseman]

That is True...I painted several of my tanks Red and labeled them "Welding Gas" for my soldering torch and weedburners so they can be filled. Forklift tanks are also fillable without the OPD valve.

[Bad Water Bill]

For the rest of us folks. I do not know about EVERYWHERE in the U S but here in northern Illinois there is a microscopic SPIDER that just lover to get in propane lines and spin a web so dense that it will almost stop the flow of propane. Been cleaning them out for years.

Put a light on the line and the web will look like an old time movie screen.

[bowfin]

No go away and don't bother me again unless you have something of value to add.

I will and I won't and I did.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Well, not to upset anyone here and only trying to share of my experiences/thoughts/suggestions like ALL the rest of the folk, but I have run into one thing which I have not seen listed here.

After wrecking two Mr. Heaters on winter elk trips, I sent a "5 gal" tank on it's way at a tank exchange, knowing that because of the old style valve, the company would need to remove the old valve, clean & test the tank before installing the new style valve and putting it back into service.

Some place, some how, I got some type of oil in this tank. Had to come from a tank filling station at some point. And the Mr. Heater would run for awhile and then slowly die out.

I took the first one apart and found a large amount of this "oil" in the valve and burner control. Did a bunch of asking and it "might" ????? possibly of come from the "skunk" added which is the product that gives off the rotten egg smell of leaking propane or natural gas.

That was the best answer I could come up with.

No dust, but some type of oil.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[MT Gianni]

Merco-captan is the odorant added to Nat Gas & LP for odorizing. In most cases you would use less than one drop from an old eyedropper per 125 gallon tank, I vote for a contaminated tank. Pipeline oils can hang in a tank but are rare and will pass through an orifice and burn. Usually contamination in a gas comes out and burns with a colored flame on a range or other open visible burner. My concerns are that a tip cleaner may have damaged the excess flow device, causing it to flake.

[WilliamDahl]

No go away and don't bother me again unless you have something of value to add.

Q: "How do Yankees say 'hello'?"

"Up yours!"
"Oh no, up *yours*..."

Seriously though Alan, putting a pot of molten lead on the top of a 20 lb LPG tank just does not seem to be that safe. The ring on the bottom of the tank is smaller than the diameter of the tank and that just seems to be asking for trouble. Maybe you have gotten away with it for quite awhile, but it looks a bit unsafe. Do you have access to a welder and some scrap metal? If so, you might want to consider building a wide base stand for your pot so that the weight of the pot rests on the stand and not the LPG tank.

There are definitely advantages to separating the gas supply from the burner assembly though. It definitely makes it easier to change tanks and if you have natural gas supply at your home, it makes it easy to change the burner to work with either LPG or natural gas.

With regards to your possible tank contamination problem, if you removed the burner off the tank, turned the tank upside down, waited a day or so for anything that might be in there to settle, and then turned the valve on so that the liquid LPG was being forced out the outlet valve, it *might* carry any contaminate with it as long as the contaminate is heavier than LPG.

[H.Callahan]

Seriously though Alan, putting a pot of molten lead on the top of a 20 lb LPG tank just does not seem to be that safe. The ring on the bottom of the tank is smaller than the diameter of the tank and that just seems to be asking for trouble. Maybe you have gotten away with it for quite awhile, but it looks a bit unsafe. Do you have access to a welder and some scrap metal? If so, you might want to consider building a wide base stand for your pot so that the weight of the pot rests on the stand and not the LPG tank.
Not trying to stir trouble, but just as clarification, what he has is a standard, plain, vanilla plumbers furnace. These were used for decades by plumbers (until lead became a no-no) to melt lead to pour into cast iron pipe joint to pack them and (along with oakum stuffed into the joint prior to pouring the lead) to make watertight joints. My dad was a plumber, my grandfather was a plumber, most of their friends were plumbers. During the summers, I worked as a plumber's apprentice (read: did everything a plumber does, but get paid about 1/3 of a plumber's salary) during my high school and college years. I am very familiar with them and I use my dad's furnace to this day to smelt boolit metal.

There is nothing especially unsafe about them. The seal to the propane tank is very positive -- probably much better than a wear-prone rubber hose with two connectors. Can they be tipped over? Yes, but they are not easily tipable. The only instance I ever heard of one being tipped was a plumber that kicked one over because he was mad for getting fired off a job site (got a front row seat to that one!). Even then, it "just" spilled lead on the ground -- no explosions or fire. If it concerns the user, the tank can be placed in a ring, like an old tire or such or even surround the tank with concrete blocks or bricks. It is just not an issue.

All dealings with fire, high temps, explosive gases and liquid metal have risk. But I don't think these furnaces add any more danger than a turkey fryer or weed burner setup.

[Alan in Vermont]

Not trying to stir trouble, but just as clarification, what he has is a standard, plain, vanilla plumbers furnace. These were used for decades by plumbers (until lead became a no-no) to melt lead to pour into cast iron pipe joint to pack them and (along with oakum stuffed into the joint prior to pouring the lead) to make watertight joints. My dad was a plumber, my grandfather was a plumber, most of their friends were plumbers. During the summers, I worked as a plumber's apprentice (read: did everything a plumber does, but get paid about 1/3 of a plumber's salary) during my high school and college years. I am very familiar with them and I use my dad's furnace to this day to smelt boolit metal.

There is nothing especially unsafe about them. The seal to the propane tank is very positive -- probably much better than a wear-prone rubber hose with two connectors. Can they be tipped over? Yes, but they are not easily tipable. The only instance I ever heard of one being tipped was a plumber that kicked one over because he was mad for getting fired off a job site (got a front row seat to that one!). Even then, it "just" spilled lead on the ground -- no explosions or fire. If it concerns the user, the tank can be placed in a ring, like an old tire or such or even surround the tank with concrete blocks or bricks. It is just not an issue.

All dealings with fire, high temps, explosive gases and liquid metal have risk. But I don't think these furnaces add any more danger than a turkey fryer or weed burner setup.

I can't begin to tell you how much I appreciate YOUR post!

Why do so many people think that virtually everything done is somehow "unsafe"? Who has appointed them as overseers of those of us who choose to make our own decisions? And why, almost universally, do they come across as if they NEED to educate us, are they so certain that they are of superior intelligence that they MUST know more than those of us who do not get all wound out about "safety"?

If someone asks for your advice re; safety, by all means give it but please, lay off these safety lectures!

[WilliamDahl]

Why do so many people think that virtually everything done is somehow "unsafe"? Who has appointed them as overseers of those of us who choose to make our own decisions? And why, almost universally, do they come across as if they NEED to educate us, are they so certain that they are of superior intelligence that they MUST know more than those of us who do not get all wound out about "safety"?

If someone asks for your advice re; safety, by all means give it but please, lay off these safety lectures!

Because there are other people who might be reading this other than yourself?

Because some of us are old enough to have survived bad mistakes and think that if you can learn from the mistakes of others, it is a GOOD thing?

Maybe with a small pot on the top of that device, it is not too unsafe, but there's going to be some newbie that is going to see that and think that they can put a cast iron dutch oven on there and smelt down a 5g bucket of wheel weights.

It's a lot cheaper to learn from the mistakes of others than to make them yourself. And a lot less painful...

Buy, hey, if you don't want to learn from others, feel free to get a large aluminum turkey fryer pot and smelt lead in it from wet wheel weights without any protective gear.

Alan, from what I've read of your posts in this thread, you come across either as very young and thinking that you know everything (basically like any teenager) or maybe you're just the stereotypical rude NYer (who now lives in Vermont). Whichever the case may be, good luck in your casting endeavors and try to be safe.

[Trey45]

Alan, these "lectures" are people with a genuine concern for your well being, for reasons I have yet to fathom, given the way you talk down to people I could not care less if you blew yourself to kingdom come as long as you didn't take any bystanders with you. If you cannot control how you address people on this forum, I will control it for you. Clear?

You were warned once by another moderator in this thread. The warnings are done.

[EDG]

Is it possible to remove the valve fitting from the tank when it is empty?
If you can remove it take it into a dark area and look down into the tank with a flash light to see if it is corroded and dusty or flaky. if it is bad just toss the tank and install your old fitting on a new tank.
If that is not appealing turn the old tank up side down and shake out any crud. If you can rig up a long tubing wan on a compressed air line use that to blow out the tank while holding it up side down. If only a little stuff come out you may be able to use the tank a while longer. If a lot comes out you may have a lot of corrosion or flaking going on. To knock the rest of the flakes loose you might drop some BBs or lead shot into the tank and shake it around , the blow it out again. At some point in time you will say it is clean enough or you will decide it is too cruddy and replace it. No matter what keep the top fitting to install on a new tank.
If you open your tank to clean it. Be sure to tell the filler to purge the air out of it before refilling.

PS when you re-install the the tank fitting use the proper pipe dope and check it for leaks.

[mac60]

I work at a compressed gas plant. We fill hundreds of propane cylinders every day. A good friend I work with who's job includes filling propane cylinders got a kick out of this. He assured me he would not fill that cylinder (it's scrap). He also told me that any reputable company wouldn't fill it either and in fact anyone that did fill it would be breaking the law and opening themselves to a tremendous amount of liability. Alan, buddy they're not that expensive and it's not worth the risk. Scrap it and move on.

[Alan in Vermont]

I work at a compressed gas plant. We fill hundreds of propane cylinders every day. A good friend I work with who's job includes filling propane cylinders got a kick out of this. He assured me he would not fill that cylinder (it's scrap). He also told me that any reputable company wouldn't fill it either and in fact anyone that did fill it would be breaking the law and opening themselves to a tremendous amount of liability. Alan, buddy they're not that expensive and it's not worth the risk. Scrap it and move on.

(A) Why is that cylinder scrap?

(B) What law would be broken in the filling of that cylinder?

I'm not debating that maybe it is junk but I don't understand how all that is visible in a picture.

Earlier someone commented something to the effect that "that doesn't look very safe", again, that's not a particularly viable appraisal based on a picture.

How do they test propane tanks, hydro test as done with welding gas cylinders? I've got nothing against having this one tested, would prefer to do that before I replaced it with a tank of current manufacture. Empty this one weighs about twice as much as a new one, I kinda like having the extra weight down low.

Of course, none of this is germaine to the issue with the orifice getting plugged unless there is something coming from inside this tank. Unfortunately there is no good way to determine that without a thorough inspection of the interior.

[mac60]

Alan, I'll try to answer your questions.

(A) The cylinder would be scrap just based on the general appearance of the cylinder.

(B) DOT regulations regarding the filling of propane cylinders forbids filling a cylinder of that type that doesn't have an "OPD" (overfill prevention device) valve. Also, if you'll look on the cylinder there will be a date (probably on the hand rail). If that date is prior to 2007 the cylinder is out of test.

A picture says a thousand words Alan, if something looks unsafe, there is a strong possibility that it is unsafe.

Propane tanks are not hydro tested (we do have a hydrotest facility at the plant). Propane cylinders are a "low pressure" cylinder and are not hydrotested or ultrasonic tested. They are given a visual inspection. If the cylinder is out of test the filler must determine if it is in a safe condition to refill. The filler would look at the overall condition of the cylinder, paying close attention to the bottom of the cylinder. Rust on the bottom is a sure sign of a problem. At the very least the valve would have to be changed. If the filler determined (by a visual inspection of the inside of cylinder) that it was in a safe condition to be refilled, he would replace the valve and stamp it with the appropriate test date. Just by looking at the cylinder it appears to be a very old style of cylinder and I would be very confident in saying it is probably out of test. The cylinder is probably absolutely full of rust (that's what is clogging the "orifice" as you said) this rust alone makes the cylinder weak by eating away at the walls of the cylinder and making them thinner and is reason to reject the cylinder. I think the thing that is making so many people uncomfortable with your setup there is the fact that putting 30 lbs. of molten lead on top of that cylinder which looks old and rusted out (hence in a weakened state) - and the thought of the cylinder failing with 30 lbs of molten lead on top of it, combined with the flame and a bunch of propane. Brother if that cylinder failed while you had all that lead on top of it and it exploded you wouldn't have to worry about it 'cuz you'd be dead. We get safety pounded into our heads non-stop on a daily basis and I've seen safety videos that showed the results of even a small cylinder of propane exploding and it's no joke. Seriously brother, if I were you I'd just save up my pennies and get me a turkey fryer and a new 20 lb. propane tank and throw that rig in the dumpster.

[Bad Water Bill]

I do not know if different states have different rules but here in Illinois I have been told the NEW bottle is good for 15 years. The bottle must then be RE INSPECTED and if still good it will be restamped for 10 more years. After that it is off to the ????yard. If at any time there is a significant amount of rust present the bottle is to be junked regardless of the date on the tank. Propane is to dangerous to take ANY chances with it.

I have had many bottles refilled over the last 40+ years and never seen one that rusty ANYWHERE.

Many refill stations are capable of removing your valve and if it is an approved type re installing it on a safe tank.

That bottle has the explosive power to LEVEL 3-5 homes in your area and send you a couple of blocks away in a heartbeat.

[lwknight]

That bottle has the explosive power to LEVEL 3-5 homes in your area and send you a couple of blocks away in a heartbeat.

OK now that is an exaggeration.
I get the point but for credibility lets keep it real.

20 pounds of propane will have 400,000 btu of heat energy.
Propane has a narrow window of flammability where too little oxygen or too little propane simply will not burn. High concentrations will be oxygen deficient and can do nothing.

I suppose that you could put the tank in a large fire to B.L.E.V.Y. it but I still doubt that it would break windows at over 100' away because it would vent off most of its content before bursting.

In a controlled environment where the right concentration of gas and oxygen were present and the whole tank were releases and confined in a garage or the likes , you probably could blow half the house away.

Now if you really want to make a blast, open the tank in a confined space and open 4 X 500 cubic ft oxygen tanks till all tanks are exhausted then ignite the gasses to level a 200' radius of neighborhood.
We are not talking about ether or acetylene which can burn at anywhere between 3% to 97% concentration.

Maybe I shoul;d edit my signature to " Blowing up stuff is fun " Buhahahaha!!

[Alan in Vermont]

OK, everybody can tell from the pic that that cylinder is covered with rust. I have it here to look at, right up close and personal and there is no rust visible anywhere on the cylinder. There is some light rust coming through the paint on the guard/handles around the valve. That part is not galvanized and appears to have been welded to the cylinder post-galvanizing. It is not peeling paint because it is rusty, the paint is peeling off the gavanized coating on the cylinder. Same thing as painting over galvanized roofing, it can be done successfully IF you have the right process to properly condition the zinc prior to painting.

As for the OPD issue, as it has already been noted here, commercial/industrial cylinders are NOT required to have the OPD stuff installed. This melting unit has been circulating around our circle of casters for 30 yrs or more, been filled at both the local fill stations as well as at the commercial propane dealers and never once has anyone questioned it. Everybody here can't be completely ignorant/incompetent and they are seeing it in person, not via pictures only.

[mac60]

You're having fun aren't you Alan?

[Bad Water Bill]

All I will say is he came here with what seamed like a good question from some one with a real problem. As residents of Castboolits we have tried to help him BUT I fear the next info we get will be a message from BRENT saying he heard the EXPLOSION at his place.

I will leave the TROLL to play some more games till a MODERATOR shows him the door.

[Alan in Vermont]

You're having fun aren't you Alan?

What is that supposed to mean?

And Bill, just what "games" am I supposed to be playing?

[DCM]

"Does not play well with others"

As said before most folks here are trying to help, you don't seem to see that.

[afish4570]

I have used these for years. Most likely your old tank could have some rust in if you are experiencing rust flakes if the small orfice hole is plugging up. Your LP may have also been the issue with the rust coming from the truck or tank. The valve on top of your tank is also obsolete for the old plumbers pot, as I tried buying several from an LP manufactuer to upgrade several tanks. If you like your setup, buy a new LP tank and reuse your old valve. You will have a new tank with old valve. You may have to trim down the handle portion on new tank. The valve is screwed in the 3/4" opening. Use proper sealant on valve. The old valve may be hard to remove without proper valve wrench. A good LP distributor may help change it out or have an exchange.

I cut an old 20# propane bottle in half with my minigrinder following the instructions I found on , How to do....safely. Instructions are on the forum. This is my smelting pot now, only took 10 min and half of a $2 cutoff wheel. The inside of tank looked as good as the day it was made. It had a powder gray like finish on the inside. No deterioration in the finish despite it being an old bottle (20 yrs. or so) spending alot of time under my car top alum. boat. Point being I think alot of the insides of old tanks are in pretty good shape. If you can try another tank that will be the proving factor. I know it is really tough to remove a valve from these bottles. I watched a workman put on a new valve on an old style tank years ago. They had a device to hold the tank and then used a wrench with a 4 ft. handle on it to remove the valve. The replacement of valve and testing of the old tank came within a few dollars of buying a new tank at a good price. Wouldn't do it again. Not cost effective. Be safe and watch for dumping a whole potfull of lead on yourself and yard. I have smelted 150# in my old propane bottle pot on an old plumbers propane furnace on the ground. afish4570:cbpour::cbpour:

[Mooseman]

Alan...
There is nothing wrong with your cylinder from the pics I see. I have lots of propane cylinders that look worse due to being on hunting trips, beat around the back of the pickup truck, etc. A wire brush and some spray paint works wonders.
Not every cylinder has to have an OPD valve , and the Regulations SAY SO. Look on the sign that is supposed to be on every Bulk tank filling site.Welding gas and Forklift cylinders are exempt as are cylinders larger than the 20 pound ones.
That tank is HEAVY DUTY and weighs 3-4 times what a new cylinder weighs...I know because I have one similar. They were made that way for plumbers pots and are very stable with a full load of lead.
I have a Gasoline pump up plumbers pot in my shop from around the 1930's - 1940's and it still works , the base is narrower than the propane cylinder is. it holds 25 pounds of lead.
I just hope you find the cause of the contamination plugging things up.

Rich

[mac60]

While it's true that not every cyl. has an OPD valve - larger tanks (pr33, 60#, 100#, 400# etc.) have check valves in them. It looked like a 20# cyl. to me - maybe it's not. I still stand by what I said. I have a friend who has 16 yrs. experience as a pumper - he said he wouldn't fill it. Regulations have changed within the last several years. I'm going to talk with the plant mgr. Monday morning and get his thoughts on it. I've been working at the plant 13 yrs. - I drive a truck, I haul tons of the stuff around daily. I don't pump and don't claim to be an expert. I've never seen a cyl. designed to be used with a plumbers pot. I'll ask around at the plant. Maybe I'm wrong (if so, I'll stand corrected and offer all involved my apologies). In any case the plant mgr. will be able to give me the scoop - he's very knowledgeable.

[largom]

I have a plumbers pot just like Alan's with two tanks. I have'nt used mine for some time but believe it or not they are very stable, not as much as a turkey fryer but still safe if common sense is applied. Most turkey fryers are not safe for large lead pots unless the frame work is beefed up

As for your question Alan, I have never had that issue with my pot. I suspect you may have got some contaminated [dirt] gas from your supplier.

Larry

[MT Gianni]

The commercial tanks and the small ones designed to be on their sides do not need the OPD device. They do need to be subjected to the hydro test but I don't remember how often, every 8-12 years comes to mind. Many companies will not hydro a non standard tank as the set up time would be substantially more.

I saw the results of a 20 lb tank BLEVE though I do not know how full it was. The fireball burned the side of the house and scorched the ground for 150 feet, melting 4" of snow and searing the grass to root level. It burned through a deck collapsing it and I got to crawl under the deck to shut the gas off. I do not keep propane tanks in my house or in an attached garage. The energy in an cars gasoline or diesel tank is far greater in capacity to burn a house down but will rarely be released forcefully.

[MT Gianni]

All I will say is he came here with what seamed like a good question from some one with a real problem. As residents of Castboolits we have tried to help him BUT I fear the next info we get will be a message from BRENT saying he heard the EXPLOSION at his place.

I will leave the TROLL to play some more games till a MODERATOR shows him the door.

This moderator does not see him as trolling nor playing games, he does appear rather stubborn in his wants as many of us do at times.

[Mooseman]

If I was concerned that the Plumbers pot on the tank setup was unsafe as far as tipping over , it would be a simple task to build a stabilizing ring with legs out of 1/8"X1 " Flat strap for it to sit in with a little bending and an arc welder !

Rich

[Lizard333]

Been on this forum for a year and a half, and have found this site to be a very friendly and great site to be on. This is the first thread that I have read where I felt someone asking for help was genuinely spiteful and rude to individuals just trying to help.

Alan, you have asked us or help but it seems as though you want none of it. Sounds like the moderators have taken notice as well.

Good luck with your problem, I'm glad I'm on the other half of the country and no where near that tank. Everything about that tank setup screams unsafe.

[Alan in Vermont]

The topic of this thread was about whether propane could be dirty. A few responses were directed at that question and were appreciated. The ones telling me how wrong I was to use that melting setup or that I HAD to buy such-and-such because my setup is unsafe brough on my ire, rightfully so, IMO, I had not asked for opinions about safety or what I needed.

As for the questioned "safety", (A) the cylinder has been filled at at least 3 propane fill stations, one of them a commercial distributor and has never been questioned. (B) That melter is NOT some homebuilt contraption, it was once the way commercial plumbing was done. Just because it is old does not make it unsafe. Since I think it is obvious that none of the safety preachers have ever used one of these melters I refer you to post #s 29, 45, 47, & 50.

Now, please, let this die. I am not allowed to talk down to others but it is apparent that others are not so constrained, judging from the tone, and value, that the previous two posts, as well as others, bring to this thread.

[lwknight]

Propane can be dirty with oils and any other acidic solvents. You are drawing only gas so it has no ability to carry dust into the orifice.
When the tank gets really low the liquid boils off at a lower rate of propane to contaminant ratio. Most commonly the skunk gets really strong just as you run out. I have had propane that was so oily that it messed up my plumbers torch with oil residue.

More likely that the air intake is getting hot and giving up rust particles or something of the likes.

[Alan in Vermont]

More likely that the air intake is getting hot and giving up rust particles or something of the likes.

That just stirred my thoughts!

The burner assembly was stored seperate from the tank for several years prior to early this summer. Concrete floored(no vapor barrier under the floor), unheated storage shed. The tank, burner and pot were on the floor, dry but subject to dampness. The cast iron parts were all subject to some level of fine rust, CI does that pretty easily/quickly.

Above where the tank connects to the tank there is about a 2" long tube, threaded at the top to accept the orifice. The whole assembly, including the valve, gets fairly warm after an hour+ of operation so it is subjected to some level of hot/cold cycling every time it is used.

Now, let's suppose there is some fine rust on the walls of that little riser tube and it gets loosened up from the hot/cold cycling. There is probably enough velocity in the gas being forced up that tube to suspend fine rust particles and carry them to a tight spot where they can get hung up.

I THINK WE HAVE A WINNER!!

I think I'll up the orifice out and run a bore brush through that tube, stuff it in a drill so I can really scrub that interior. Sure can't hurt anything and it just might cure the issues with the orifice clogging.

Thank you!

[Mooseman]

Alan,
Please let us know what you find.
I will take a pic of the Antique pot at the shop this week just to show these Naysayers what an Old Time Plumbers pot looks like...I may see if My boss will sell it to me...I already have the gasoline soldering torch !
Rich

[WilliamDahl]

I will take a pic of the Antique pot at the shop this week just to show these Naysayers what an Old Time Plumbers pot looks like...I may see if My boss will sell it to me...I already have the gasoline soldering torch !


I've seen 100 year old oxygen tanks pass hydro without any problem. I have SCUBA tanks that easily pass hydro and they are 40+ years old. Of course, they are not subjected to the heat of having a propane flame a few inches above the top of the valve for possibly hours at a time.

[evan price]

The worst propane tank I ever saw I got from my neighbor when her husband passed and the family (and us) all went and helped them clean out the barns and garage and yard. I got three truckloads of scrap metal, including an old propane BBQ grill that had been lying in the field behind the barn for so many years that it just disintegrated when we tried to move it. Inside half buried in the mud was an old POL 20# propane tank. It had rusted so badly that the base ring was literally gone. It was so pitted that it looked like a golf ball. Unfortunately when I pulled the tank out of the debris, it felt full. Scale showed it was indeed nearly full.

Wound up strapping it to a plank and used the propane in my turkey fryer to melt lead. I have an adapter to convert POL to the new OPD style threads so it was a direct connection.

When I emptied it I took it out in the field and shot it a few times with an 8mm Mauser and Yugo FMJ. The tank was scary thin due to the pitting- micrometer showed down at the base it was roughly 50% of original thickness in the worst pits... It went in the trunk of a car I took to the shredder.

[bumpo628]

Wound up strapping it to a plank and used the propane in my turkey fryer to melt lead. I have an adapter to convert POL to the new OPD style threads so it was a direct connection.

I bet you had your track shoes on instead of work boots that day!

[waynem34]

I've used tanks like yours for 25 years in the roofing business for heating the old style copper soildering irons for flat lock seam metal roofing.I havent used one for melting lead yet but I would.I lose pressure some times but it seems to be freezing up in my case.I have very heavy frost half way up the tank.We fill em here in Virginia with no problem.I think the valve will screw out and you can clean it.Not sure I dont have one here with me.May also try different source of propane.YMMV

[40Super]

I would think it has to do with the rust on all the tubing and burner parts.Everything is shrunk down,being cold, and when he runs it and everything gets good and warm,they expand ,breaking loose all kinds of rust particle inside that get caught in the orifice,slowing chocking it off as he says,till it quits. Between brushing it off with a steel brush, a soak in a mild acid that could disolve what rust is left should get it up and running.
I've also seen these tanks and they are indeed conciderably thicker and more trust worthy than the 'standard" ones. His looks in good enough condition to be safe, from what I can tell.

[mac60]

Alan, I talked to the plant mgr. about your question "can propane be dirty" - his one word answer was "no". He explained that propane is pumped as a liquid and used as a gas. Any contamination inside the cyl. would probably be due to poor storage (rust etc.). He said the odorant (methyl mercaptan) can "gel" and he's seen cyls. with a buildup in them. I told him about the cyl. being galvanized and asked him if it could be some of the zinc coming out of the cyl., he said that they would etch the metal then hot-dip the cyl. and unless they did all this with the valve out of the cyl. then it couldn't be galvanizing coming out of the cyl. He said he wasn't sure what you were seeing and that maybe it was just vapor (?). He also told me that our plant did not hydrotest low pressure cyls. they are given a visual inspection. Propane cyls. are good for 12 yrs. from date of manufacture then must be recertified every 5 yrs after that. He told me that 20lb cyls. must have an opd to be filled, but that this did not apply to larger cyls. he also told me that by law we could not take the valve you have in that cyl. now and install it on a 20lb cyl. Now just speaking of our company - he said we can't be responsible for what someone else might do - if we received that cyl. (he did agree with you about having to see the cyl first hand) and it didn't have a valid cert. date and couldn't pass the visual insp. that we would have to obliterate any markings on the cyl. and "condemn" it. Doing this prevents the owner of the cyl. from taking it elsewhere to have it filled. He said we would under no circumstances fill a cyl. that wasn't in a safe condition and couldn't be certified. To do so would mean $10,000 fine. I'm not disputing what you said about having the cyl. filled numerous times with no questions asked. This man knows the laws/rules as they apply to us. Not trying to be combative, just passing on what this man told me - and believe me he's been in the business over 20 yrs. and knows his stuff.

[superscifi12]

Alan, I talked to the plant mgr. about your question "can propane be dirty" - his one word answer was "no". He explained that propane is pumped as a liquid and used as a gas. Any contamination inside the cyl. would probably be due to poor storage (rust etc.). He said the odorant (methyl mercaptan) can "gel" and he's seen cyls. with a buildup in them. I told him about the cyl. being galvanized and asked him if it could be some of the zinc coming out of the cyl., he said that they would etch the metal then hot-dip the cyl. and unless they did all this with the valve out of the cyl. then it couldn't be galvanizing coming out of the cyl. He said he wasn't sure what you were seeing and that maybe it was just vapor (?). He also told me that our plant did not hydrotest low pressure cyls. they are given a visual inspection. Propane cyls. are good for 12 yrs. from date of manufacture then must be recertified every 5 yrs after that. He told me that 20lb cyls. must have an opd to be filled, but that this did not apply to larger cyls. he also told me that by law we could not take the valve you have in that cyl. now and install it on a 20lb cyl. Now just speaking of our company - he said we can't be responsible for what someone else might do - if we received that cyl. (he did agree with you about having to see the cyl first hand) and it didn't have a valid cert. date and couldn't pass the visual insp. that we would have to obliterate any markings on the cyl. and "condemn" it. Doing this prevents the owner of the cyl. from taking it elsewhere to have it filled. He said we would under no circumstances fill a cyl. that wasn't in a safe condition and couldn't be certified. To do so would mean $10,000 fine. I'm not disputing what you said about having the cyl. filled numerous times with no questions asked. This man knows the laws/rules as they apply to us. Not trying to be combative, just passing on what this man told me - and believe me he's been in the business over 20 yrs. and knows his stuff.

Not to say he's wrong but maybe not up with all the codes: http://www.nfpa.org/itemDetail.asp?categoryID=303&itemID=19333&URL=Safety%20Information/For%20consumers/Gasoline%20&%20propane/Propane%20safety/Propane%20cylinder%20overfilling%20prevention%20de vices%20(OPD)&cookie%5Ftest=1.

Read the last bullet point completely. Quoted here for ease.
"The 2001 edition of NFPA 58 modified requirements to exempt horizontal cylinders manufactured before October 1, 1998, from requiring OPDs. Also exempt are cylinders used for industrial trucks, industrial welding and cutting gases (these cylinders must be labeled with their use)."
So the need for all tanks 4lb to 40lb was changed 11 years ago that would exempt certain industrial uses as those tanks need to draw more lp then the opd allows (100,000btu of I remember correctly)

Sent from my EVO LTE using Tapatak 2

[Mooseman]

They Now make an OPD plumbers pot...http://www.mantank.com/pdf/Industrial%20Cylinders.pdf

They are still classed as an Industrial cylinder.
One place I saw sold them for 220.00................OUCH !
Rich

[Alan in Vermont]

OUCH indeed! But, it is nice to know that a replacement can be had even if it does induce sticker shock. I really do like the fact that the new cylinder has a base ring as big as the tank dia. That change must improve stability greatly.

Mac60, thanks for the clarification about dirt in the fuel. That clears up one possibility.

Time permitting I'm going to try cleaning out the inside of the burner assembly today and see what manner of much I get out of that.

[mac60]

Alan - I hope you get it worked out - I know you'd like to use the thing. I hope it works out for you brother.

[Alan in Vermont]

Alan - I hope you get it worked out - I know you'd like to use the thing. I hope it works out for you brother.

I'm using it now and dealing with the frustration of having to clean the orifice often. I need it working right as I'm hoping to get in on an indoor range cleaning which should yield 1,000 lbs of bullet ore. That won't be until November, most likely, and that's usually a rainy month. I don't have a lot of room to store buckets of ore so I will need to process it rapidly. Having the pot working right will allow me to run a lot more material in a smelting session. There's a retired plumber here who has another one which I may be able to borrow and that would speed up the process greatly.

I'm also working up a design for a bigger base so I can remodel the piece the actual pot sits on. I tried using a 12" dutch oven on there but I'm not even close to comfortable with it. I think with a base about 20"Ø with the tank pinned to it and a frame, supported off the bigger base to carry the big pot and a wind screen should work and be stable enough be safe. There's burner enough there to melt material in that big pot but I don't dare use it without stabilization.

BTW, I didn't have time to try cleaning the burner this afternoon. I had another cylinder taking up my time. This one was a power steering cylinder off a JD garden tractor that was leaking, I had to cut it apart, put in all new seals and wiper, then weld it back up and ship it back to the customer. Tomorrow I've got to go bushhogging at the range so it's not looking good then either.

[WilliamDahl]

I'm also working up a design for a bigger base so I can remodel the piece the actual pot sits on. I tried using a 12" dutch oven on there but I'm not even close to comfortable with it. I think with a base about 20"Ø with the tank pinned to it and a frame, supported off the bigger base to carry the big pot and a wind screen should work and be stable enough be safe. There's burner enough there to melt material in that big pot but I don't dare use it without stabilization.

If you just need a temporary setup to handle the heavier pot, get a couple of CMUs (cinder blocks) for each side, stack them on top of each other, and then run some 1/2" square stock across the opening to act as a grill work to put the cast iron dutch oven on. Just remember that the holes in the cinder block point up, not sideways for weight support. Make it high enough that your tank burner can slide underneath it. If you have a welder, you can weld end pieces on the 1/2" square stock pieces so that nothing can possibly slide around, just in case.

Or maybe a front and back piece of 2" square tubing about 12" apart and then weld the 16" pieces of the 1/2" square stock between the 2" tubing, but at a 90 degree angle to it for the center 16" or so of it. Maybe something like this?

http://william-dahl.000webhostapp.com/images/lead-smelting-grill-top.gif

[Mooseman]

Here is the antique Plumbers pot...Gasoline powered !
48109

20 lb. pot and a narrow base...

[Alan in Vermont]

This morning I tore into the burner again. Unscrewed the orifice and got after that little tube section with a 22 cal bore brush twirled with a drill. Got a bunch of fine rust out of it.

While I had the burner off the tank I scraped the exposed iron, where it screws to the tank, until I got most of it showing clean metal. Blew the bejabbers out of it all and put it back together.

While I was in cleaning mode I wire brushed the melting pot inside and out. There was hunks of "something" burned onto the iron inside the pot, I suspect it is the residue from little pieces of clay pidgeon. Some of the yahooes go over on the skeet field and collect unbroken pidgeons, bring them over to the range and grind them into chips on the berm. No good way to seperate them out other than hand sorting, a little of which is my limit. There is also a bunch of shredded wood from the target backers but that floats off pretty easy when I dump them in a mortar pan full of water and skim the surface.

Anyhow, the burnt on residue shrugged off the wire wheel on a grinder so I dug out my needle scaler and thoroughly chipped the interior of the pot clean. Once I was satisfied with that I heated the pot enough to melt parrafin(sp) and coated the pot, inside and out. That will burn off the next time I smelt and having a clean pot should help with heat transfer from burner to ore.

Next week I'll do another smelting session. Tomorrow I'll try to get another small load of ore. It's coming hard now, the berm is just damp enough that the sand packs in the sifter when I'm mining. There probably won't be any good drying conditions between now and freeze-up so I think tomorrow will be my last sessions of mining unless something goes really wierd with the weather.

[bumpo628]

You should post an "after" pic when you're done. I'd like to see how it turned out.

[Alan in Vermont]

Not much to take pics of at this point, just a 1/4" X 1" bore in the casting and about an .015 hole in the brass orifice, and the inside of the burner where it screws to the tank.

I have started on an enlarged base to alleviate the one thing that makes me nervous about the whole rig, that small base ring it sits on. I came across a skinny 16" wheel for one of those "space saver" spare tires. It is 17½" across the outer lip, almost 50% larger than the tank and the largest pot I will be using and over twice the diameter of the base ring(8¼") on the tank. I will weld some plates to the wheel where the tank base will sit inside them. Either through drill and tap, or weld nuts over the holes so I can screw bolts through them. Using the bolts to mark where to drill I will put holes, larger than bolt diameter in the base ring. That will allow me to run the bolts through the base ring to act as pins to lock the tank to the bigger base. That will stabilize the tank and burner.

Next step will be to add a bigger top to the burner, large enough to support and stabilize a 12" pot. That will have to be tied to the base, not sure just how yet, so that the weight of the pot and load will be sitting on the base, not on just the burner.

I will post pics of that as I go along.

[Alan in Vermont]

Here is the antique Plumbers pot...Gasoline powered !
48109

20 lb. pot and a narrow base...

I know those burners were high tech at one point, but those, and gasoline fueled blowtorches are things that make me shudder. No idea why, they are probably no more inherently unsafe than propane ones are.

[WilliamDahl]

Next step will be to add a bigger top to the burner, large enough to support and stabilize a 12" pot. That will have to be tied to the base, not sure just how yet, so that the weight of the pot and load will be sitting on the base, not on just the burner.

You might want to consider separating the weight bearing surface from the actual burner assembly. Pretty easy to do either with a temporary solution like I suggested in a previous post or with a permanent solution where you weld some actual steel legs on the surface that supports the pot.

Do you have a welder?

[Mooseman]

I know those burners were high tech at one point, but those, and gasoline fueled blowtorches are things that make me shudder. No idea why, they are probably no more inherently unsafe than propane ones are.

As long as you have no leaks , they are Fine...Like any other Gasoline or propane burner.They are just a big Coleman stove !
My Boss said I could have it for 25 bucks ! I am thinking about it !

Rich

[Alan in Vermont]

Do you have a welder?

Yeah, I do, a couple of them in fact, even know how to use them.

[lwknight]

Well.. after all this reading , I think I will weld some rings on my burner stand. The 3-way supports are not all that great even though it has 4 solid and attached legs.
Maybe I can just fill the large gaps to make like a spider web.

Sometimes I put large pieces of scrap in the pot and its a little teetering so I have to hold and guide the scrap into the melt.

[WilliamDahl]

Yeah, I do, a couple of them in fact, even know how to use them.

I'm a bit more of a crude welder myself... I have an old Lincoln AC-225 and can make things stick together rather well, but they won't be the most perfect butter smooth beads that you ever saw.... I tend to be a bit too crude to weld anything thinner than 16-gauge, so I just over-engineer everything to use heavier materials... Largest project that I ever welded was 250+ ft of steel picket (aka "wrought iron" type) fence after a hurricane destroyed the cedar privacy fence for the back fence line of my property. Around 750+ pickets plus 3 rails and posts... The 16-gauge pickets ended up getting blown through maybe 20 times and then had to spend the time welding the blow through closed. The rails were 12-gauge, so I didn't have a problem burning through them accidentally...

My personal belief is that the fire source should be separate from the rack that is used to hold the smelting pot since sometimes it's nice to be able to adjust the distance between the flame and the pot. Plus, if you have a problem with the heat source during a smelting session, you can pull it out, fix it, and not disturb the pot of heated lead that you have above it.

[Alan in Vermont]

There is an inherent problem with any of the entry level AC machines that use a snap switch to set output amps. There is too much jump from one setting to the next one, so it's really hard to get the right current with the smaller electrodes used at low current levels. The problem is made worse by the fact that those machines are often bought by someone, totally new to welding, who lacks the skills necessary to adjust how they manipulate the electrode to alleviate some of the shortcomings of the machines.

I've got a 225 Lincoln, I get along OK with it but then I've got thousands of hours behind me. My current shop welder, I haven't used the buzz box in years, is a 140 amp Snap-On MIG unit. I paid a kings ransom for that one because it is the only MIG I could find that will run on 120 volts AND deliver full rated output on a 100% duty cycle. Wind it up and burn wire! On the low end it will weld body metal, even butt joints with .023 wire at low amperage or I can use .035 flux cored a full throttle and weave a 3/8" bead in one pass. Cored wire works fine outdoors and is far more tolerant of rust or paint if you're trying to do a repair someplace where you can't get anything in there to clean it.

I fully understand the hell you must have gone through on that fence.

[40Super]

You should try to weld chunks of exhaust pipe together UNDER a car with one of those Lincoln 225 arc welders!!!! NO, it's imposible to do it with a helmet!! And I still have both eyes!!! Young and invincable
I've upgraded to a Hobart 220V Mig and a Miller Tig(for AL & SS) now. Much,much better

[Alan in Vermont]

You should try to weld chunks of exhaust pipe together UNDER a car with one of those Lincoln 225 arc welders!!!!

Hey, if it was easy anybody could do it.

[WilliamDahl]

There is an inherent problem with any of the entry level AC machines that use a snap switch to set output amps. There is too much jump from one setting to the next one, so it's really hard to get the right current with the smaller electrodes used at low current levels. The problem is made worse by the fact that those machines are often bought by someone, totally new to welding, who lacks the skills necessary to adjust how they manipulate the electrode to alleviate some of the shortcomings of the machines.

Well, the ol' AC-225 was what I learned on in high school MANY decades ago... One came up on CraigsList a few years ago for $75 and it looked to be in great shape other than the fact that it needed a new front power switch. I just use the circuit breaker to turn it on and off. :)

I've also got quite a bit of time with and old Lincoln "Pipeliner" SA-200 that we had on the family ranch, but the steel I was welding there was even thicker -- probably 1/4" was the thinnest I ever had to weld on back there.

If I have to do the thin stuff, I can break out the oxy-acetylene tanks and weld (or braze if necessary) it. If it's too thin for me to do with my "skill" with an oxy-acetylene rig, then it's time for some construction adhesive or rivets (which is what I had to do when I was patching some rust spots in the floorboard of my Jeep at one time).

Give me 1/8" wall thickness or better and I'm happy...