Bore Cleaning

[Beekeeper]

OK, I have asked this before and have not been able to wrap my brain around the answers so far so I'll try again.

I am old, and from the old school. " it ain't clean until it sqeakes"
That said I read several posts where the OP states never clean a bore until accuracy goes south.

Goes against everything I have been taught.
So my question "I guess" is why?
I shoot almost Milsurplus exclusively.
Most all have Iron or steel barrels, ( a few have chrome but only a few).
I was taught by family and Military Instructors to clean completly and I always do.

So educate me on why I shouldn't!
Try doing it in small words so my old brain can absorb it and understand.


beekeeper

[ebner glocken]

I can assure you that whoever stated to never clean until accuracy falls had never fired milsurps with corrosive ammo.

I go with both schools of thought. My milsurps get cleaned everytime they are fired, no telling what kind of ammo may get fired through them. Rifles that get hunted with, same thing, they get rained on and whatever, and only may see 15-20 rounds a year.

I do shoot .22 rimfire pistol quite a fair ammount. Ruger MK series I shoot around 150+ rounds and accuracy starts to go down. About 3 or 4 passes with a boresnake it comes back. Better guns with slicker bores take a higher round count. Rinse and repeat. When I get home the gun is throughly cleaned and lubed. Shoot cheap bulk packed ammo and the actions get crunchy.

Guns that don't get cleaned until accuracy falls off in is ARs in my case. These things get shot with a fair frequency and a higher round count. When they go with me they get a mag or two put down the pipe to get it again a week or two later. For me it's a few hundred rounds bewteen cleanings. After each range session the action will get sprayed with carberator cleaner and relubed but the bbl will go quite some time before cleaning. I'm sure someone on here will say I clean too often and they go 2000+ rounds bewteen cleaning.

Ebner

[Le Loup Solitaire]

If shooting corrosive ammo there is no question about whether to clean the gun after shooting. If you insist otherwise then its entirely your affair. On whether to clean your guns at all; there has been only one practice that I am familiar with and that is the mention in writings by some folks who when testing guns prefer to "dirty" the bore before doing the actual testing. I also encountered something of this sort when meeting competitors who always fired a round or two before going to the line in order to avoid what they called the "oil shot". Others who didn't believe in that idea would run a dry patch or two down the bore instead, before shooting. It seemed to be a "what do you want to believe in" practice. As for the main question(OP)...a gun is a machine made of moving metal parts....that will move smoother if clean and oiled. So crud, fouling etc should be removed and oil then applied. If you believe otherwise then its your gun and your call. As far as the bore is concerned; if your gun shoots well for you when its dirty and you are satisfied (with the accuracy) then continue to shoot it for as long as you wish/care to. I personally prefer to keep my bores clean and oiled because I don't like accumulations of whatever doesn't belong in them and above all...rust. So right after or shortly after firing them I get out the cleaning kit and do it. Moreover it removes from my head any doubt(s) about anything imagined or otherwise about what might happen if I didn't. LLS

[PS Paul]

There is a ton of infor out there on this subject: some very good and a lot- not so much. I figure that since many guns "are a law unto themselves", the RIGHT answer may never be found becasue the right answer is different for everyone. Case in point: I have a .357 revolver that shoots beautiful cloverleaf patterns when squeaky clean. I try to keep it that way before range time, but do not clean while at the range. I had an old Ruger BH in .45 Colt that shot well when clean, but accuracy deteriorated after about 50 shots, even with perfectly-sized boolits. I usually ran a lightly-oiled patch down the barrel at the range and after a "fouling/oil shot" or two, accuracy was enjoyed again.

ALL of my milsurp rifles are cleaned after EVERY shooting session. Like the posters above, no telling what could get in there between shooting sessions.

It is quite common for those who shoot single-shot rifles with cast boolits only to maintain a certain "level of fouling" to maintain accuracy. I do not own or shoot one of these (on the "soon to be purchased" list), but the reasoning behind it makes perfect sense to me. There are a few who NEVER clean their cast-boolit single-shots. I would not subscribe to that, but there is no arguing with the performance level of some of these characters.

I ahve read great information on the lasc.us website (Los Angeles Silhouette Club) regarding this subject and the answers are all over the map, sort of supporting my first few sentences in this post.

I don't know if this helps, but pointing a guy in the right direction (to look at some of the other info out there) certainly should.
Regards,
Paul

[Multigunner]

I've read that some snipers prefer not to clean the bore until heavily fouled, and some military competition shooters of the thirties felt the same way.
They were more interested in the first bullet of the day having exactly the same point of impact as the last bullet of the preceeding day than in preserving tight grouping.
By the end of the target shooting season the barrels had to be replaced because of corrosive primers and sometimes the bore diameter of the cleaned barrel was found to have increased slightly due to firing with heavy jacket fouling lining the bore.
A heavily fouled bore was often accurate until the jacket fouling was removed.
Considering the aggressive methods used to remove metal fouling back then its no suprise.

These days cleaning throughly then firing one or two fouling shots before firing for more serious purposes seems to be the rule.

[Gtek]

I know the guy very well that worked and paid for these bang sticks- ME. The hunting rifles I let slide through season unless rain or bad moisture, low clean round count. The Mil boys are cleaned before them and me call it a night. Unknown or suspect ammo is pushed on bench at range when still warm and pushed some more when we get home. If you have ever checked one of your bores after a period of time and it needs a haircut inside, it changed me. Gtek

[km101]

It was drilled into me in the military "cleanliness is next to Godliness. So you @#$%#@ better clean it."
I clean everything .22 to .45 and .223 to .30-06 each time I shoot them. With my military match rifle (M14) I fired a "fouling shot" before competing each day, but it was cleaned after each day's competition. I never had a problem with accurach then or now.

[tbierley]

I spent 24 years in the Army as a tanker on M60 all the way the M1A2. When live fired small arms and crew served weapons I made the guys clean the weapons the when they finshed shooting and then clean the next day and the third day. This was drilled into little E-2 head at Ft Knox in 1980. I worked then and worked till I left the Army.

[felix]

You offer the perfect scenario for weapons. For bench guns, the scenario would be to clean after each group. Most of our cast boolit guns get cleaned only when the accuracy falls off enough to notice. ... felix

[JHeath]

Cleaning creates a risk of damaging the bore through abrasion, and risks messing up the bedding by dripping solvent between the action and stock. Clean only when the fouling causes a problem that outweighs those risks.

That's why many accomplished M1A high-power shooters cleaned their rifles as little as possible, and inverted them in a special cradle for cleaning. They didn't remove the stock when cleaning because repeated assembly/disassembly could eventually cause the bedding to loosen. They also used a centering tool for the rod, and unjointed rods. I was taught that unjointed steel rods of fairly large diameter were best because plastic-coated rods could get grit impregnated in the plastic. Steel rods just touched the rifling without hurting it much.

Think about it: if you bought a new rifle and never fired it, but broke it down and cleaned it enough times, you'd eventually wear the rifling and especially the crown, and loosen the bedding, just by cleaning it.

[Buckshot]

.............If you're shooting cast (or even jacketed I suppose) for me I wouldn't clean a rifle unless I knew I wasn't going to be shooting it again for some time. I learned a valuable lesson once. I have a M1903A1 Springfield and my 'Go to' load was 23.0grs H4198 + dacron & the Lyman 311284. I'd load that load up and keep them in a 100 round MTM case. Brass was LC45 that I'd been gifted a bucket of.

I'd have to say that I bet that rifle had OVER 500 rounds through it, of the above load. Never cleaned it as I never had to. It always shot very well. I'd just push an oiled patch down the bore, wipe it down and put it up. Then one day accuracy went south. I had it in the cleaning cradle and was about half way done when I happened to notice when I pushed the rod forward the magazine cutoff seemed to move forward. Watching closely when I ulled the rod backout the cuttoff moved backwards a tiny bit.

Turned out that the action screws had loosened up :-) That was the whole problem. Tightened them up and that was the end of it's accuracy issues. If there is no real reason to clean, then there is no real reason to clean :lol: However the lesson learned was that it never hurts to give them a once over for the basics every once in awhile.

..................Buckshot

[Jack Stanley]

You're ALL right about cleaning ![smilie=l:

If the ammo of the day was made in some eastern European nation , I'm gonna clean the rifle when I get in from the range .

In the case of most of the commercial ammo , I'm a lot like JHeath said ( welcome aboard by the way ) . My match tuned Garand went belly up in the cradle after each match and got a light solvent clean and wiped dry untill the next match that year . A simple wipe and add grease at the lugs with the barrel was all it needed . At the end of the season it got a detail strip , clean and inspection /repair as needed .

In the same thought with commercial ammo a sporting rifle I might use once every couple years . A cleaning like tbierley says is what I do . And for rifles that get cast bullets used in them like that , they are treated the same way .

My cast bullet rifles though , as long as I used them every week or so don't get a cleaning untill accuracy/functioning goes south . Cast bullets from a benchrest rifle would be yet another story , I would clean between the hundred and two hundred yard stage for that . So felix is right too , are we confused yet ?

Of course , if you live in an area that is hard on rifles you would care for them differently I bet , I know I would . Some of what the military and gun writers say has a valid reason . Some of it makes as much sense as having a recruit polish the soles of their boots . In the long run you paid for the rifles and you get to enjoy them ....... notice how these guys are way better than drill instructors :p

Jack

[craig61a]

I have used a number of different methods over the years to clean. When I would get a new to me surplus rifles I'd look them over and decide. The really crudy ones I would let soak with foaming bore cleaner for a day or two, then use solvent and a brush, then back to the foaming bore cleaner. Some of them took a week or more to remove the crud. When I got them down to bare metal, I'd run a patch of hoppes through then soak a patch in hoppes and apply some Clover lapping compound (320) and make several passes to smooth out the pitting or remove any leftover crud in the groove. Sometimes repeating more than once (about 20 passes each time). Then I'd break in the barrel as if it were a new barrel to 'season' it.

Over the last several years I've generally used Sweets and Foaming bore cleaner. On my MilSurps I will let the barrel cool down some and then run a patch with Sweets if I've been shooting jacketed surplus ammo. This removes a lot of the copper and crud very quickly. After that I'll run a water dampened patch and a dry patch, then I put it in a cradle and apply foaming bore cleaner and let it sit for 24 hours. Push through a clean patch and then a oiled patch.

On my rifles that I shoot cast exclusively, I'll push a dry patch through after shooting. After several range trips I'll apply foaming bore cleaner let it sit for a day, then push a dry patch or two through and apply some oil if I'm not planning on shooting it for a while. I tend to play with certain rifles in streaks - so for a few weeks I'll be working with a few than put those up and move on to something else. And then I'll rediscover something I haven't shot in a while... and

[Multigunner]

If corrosive primers are a worry Balistol mixed with water forms a sort of detergent and washes away primer salts very effectively. Balistol used straight without water is not as effective.
Once cleaned straight balistol can then be applied as preservative, and so long as the balistol is in the bore it seals any residue that you might have missed so moisture and oxygen can't get to it. It also continues to dissolve old hardened deposits as it protects, so the next time you run a patch through the bore before shooting you may see ages old crud on the patch that you might have never gotten out otherwise.

PS
I'm told Balistol is not a good choice for the HK and Cetme and probably some other autoloaders, its formulated for manually operated rifles and handguns.
Its a great cleaning for black powder weapons, so long as water is added, but not as good as oil for coating the bore when the BP weapon will be stored for several months at a time. BP residue can mix with the balistol and form a crusty deposit in the corners of rifling that I found to be very difficult to remove. I had thought the bore had rusted because of the gritty feel of the brush but when this deposit finally came out the bore was slick as a ribbon and rifling was unmarred.

[Larry Gibson]

I'm of the "old school" as taught by Army drill sergeants......I clean all my rifles, handguns and shotguns after use.

With cast I've not found "seasonng" the barrel and not cleaning to give any benifit. The hunting loads I use do not have a "cold clean bore" first or second shot far enough out of group to cause a miss within my own pratical max hunting ranges. On the other hand I have had serious 1st misses from a fouled bore that sat for several days/weeks because the lube and powder fouling got hard in the bore.

Not saying which is right either way, just saying what I do and why.

Larry Gibson

[mac60]

I can't sleep with a dirty gun in the house.

[toooldtocare]

I can't sleep with a dirty gun in the house.

I agree

[GT27]

I can't sleep with a dirty gun in the house.

I concur also!:coffee:

[303Guy]

I can't sleep with a dirty gun in the house.Dirty guns can rust! And they do. Greasy guns are not dirty - just greasy.

[Four Fingers of Death]

A lot of shooters talk about damage from cleaning, but slam a bullet up the bore and thats going to do a lot more damage than a cleaning rod.

[jonk]

Blackpowder, corrosive primers, get cleaned that day, as soon as possible.

Other stuff... it depends. If I'm going to put it away for a long time, I clean thoroughly, and oil. Ditto if accuracy falls off or if I see leading in the bore beyond just the light gray antimony splash often seen with wheelweight based bullets. OTOH, If it's a gun I shoot regularly, and I don't see this... then an oily patch or two, and call it a day.

The standard Swiss method of cleaning a K-31 was to put a single patch greased with Waffenfett (weapons grease) down the bore, and a dry one before starting shooting. Most Swiss guns have immaculate, mirror shiny bores with very little if any throat or muzzle erosion, and are prized for superb accuracy.

Enough said. I clean when I need to.

[Donor8x56r]

I learned that rifles intended to be shot with casts should be cleaned really well only once-right after I buy it.
All other times bore gets no attention at all but chamber and bold do get nice clan.

Why?Every time I cleaned bore well it takes maybe 50 to 100 shots before rifle gets accurate again and it shoots to the same spot as before cleaning.

One exception:rifles not intended to be shot for more than 3 months get a few gun oil soaked patches