Fmjbt

[Thetraveler]

How would the process for making FMJBT's differ from making all other jacketed bullets? Do they have to be made from jackets closed on one end or can one make the closed end then start the process?

[DukeInFlorida]

The boat tail requires an additional punch, and all subsequent work on the bullet has to be done with a bottom punch that retains the same shape. You can't make boat tail style bullets using rimmed cases for the jacket, and have to go with either J4 style pre-made jackets (like the bench rest shooters do), which are VERY expensive, or use copper tubing, and add all the extra steps. Either way, factory boat tail bullets are cheaper.

[perotter]

For FMJ bullets, before the core is put in, the jacket is made to a shape that is similar to it's final shape. Then a core that roughly matches that is put into the jacket. Then the bullet is swaged to it's final shape.


See G. Frost's book "Ammunition Making".

[DukeInFlorida]

The bench rest style swage die set, with the ability to make boat tails, is somewhere in the $2,500 - $5,000 range. Lots of precision pieces and parts. You have to be either a serious bench rest competition shooter, or want to make tens of thousands of these to justify the cost of those tools.

[Thetraveler]

Anyone know of someone that makes this set? I am trying to match the M80 147 Gr FMJBT bullet but with better accuracy, and more uniform loads. Price is not a concern on the dies, delivery sometimes in the near future is. (have read the post on Corbin's delivery policies) I don't mind also getting the swage set to use tubing instead of the J4 or Sierra jackets. I am looking into this for several reasons.
1. I have a Trijicon ACOG 6x48 on my H&K MR762A1 (and several friends willing to help out as long as they benefit) with the M80 bullet drop on it and some friends with the same scope wanting more accurate loads.
2. Also I am playing worst case scenario with ammo no longer being able to be purchased or so expensive training becomes unpalatable.
3 I can afford it and want to get into this :)

[runfiverun]

winchester sellsa bullet very similar to the mili one.
the crimp is rolled into the win ones an not cut like the others but it is somewhat more accurate.
quite often out to 200-300 yds a plain base bullet will be more accurate than the boat tail,and will have the same trajectory.
it's over the longer distances that the boat tail will show it'self as having slightly less drop.

[Thetraveler]

the Winchester bullet in question is a 150GR FMJBT I am truing to make an exact but more uniform and accurate 147GR used in the M80 round :)

[Thetraveler]

I might go with the Sierra jackets they are 90/10 gilded material not straight copper and stockpile the jackets as I can buy them

[DukeInFlorida]

Hang out at the benchrest forums and look for the names of the ultra high cost die makers. Those are the guys who make the die sets for the best benchrest shooters. They don't have a long waiting list like Corbin does.

I'm not in that game, so I can't offer many suggestions.

I know that Detsch is held in high regard:
http://diemaker.us/

Blackmon is also pretty good.

List here:
http://algunjunkie.webs.com/Downloads/Bullet%20Swaging%20Die%20Makers%203-21-2012.pdf

Be mindful that DanR and Edge Dies have both departed from the scene after failed attempts at making .224 bullet swage sets.

[Utah Shooter]

2 good options for swaging die sets.

Dave Deutsch. You will not find a nicer gentleman to talk to. His die sets are just over 2,000 dollars with about a 2.5 month turn around time. If you want his modified Big Boss press I think he sells that for around 200 dollars. I would get 3 of them just so you do not have to change a thing when going from one step to another.

He can make you a die set that replicates your favorite projectile because of the EDM he uses to cut them I did not ask Dave about getting boat tail dies as of yet.

Blackmon sells his dies and press far a fair amount cheaper than Dave Deutsch but only has 2 styles to choose from in .30 cal. Last I checked his prices were far from "Ultra high cost". Again I would suggest 3 presses as well. I think that he is a bit of a longer turn around time.

You can also check out RCE. I know that some on the site here have .22 cal. projectiles that can make HPBT and they are into it about 1,400 I do believe.

[Thetraveler]

thanks Duke I knew you has something good to add. Just sent Detsch an email lets hope I get a positive reply

[Thetraveler]

thank you Utah I will sure ask him about the presses as soon I get a reply from him

[DukeInFlorida]

I used the term, "Ultra high cost" because of the big difference between Corbin's $800 vanilla set, and the custom likes of a Detsch set.

I agree that Detsch is a good guy. I had some lengthy conversations with him before deciding to wait for BT Sniper's die set.

[Thetraveler]

I hate waiting, specialty when I am going to make it for still serving men :) I will treat my self to BT's stuff on a lot of other dies I still need 9mm XTP 45 Acp XTP and .375 for my H&H :) Need to get this started first, I have enjoyed very much all the information BT puts out he is a venerable fountain of information.

[Lizard333]

I use RCE for my press and 22 dies so far. I also have a set of BTs 44 mag dies. My complete set up from RCE is about 1400. This included the walnut hill press, 22LR jacket maker, core, core seat, 6S point form, jacket trim, RBT, and lead tip dies.

308 dies are in the future, as well as a VLD for my 224's as I am going to be making some 90+ grain bullets in a custom 6 1/2 gain twist rifle I'm building.

You can make RBT and boat tail bullets out of 22LR brass but the other brass as a case has two much reinforcement in the base of the brass to put a boat tail on without major stress on the die. Copper tubing is another option as well. You can make your own jackets out of those, but it doesn't appear as though cost is an issue. RCE sells jackets as well, but I haven't had a chance try them out. You can also get jackets from Bruno's out of Phoenix.

I went with RCE instead of Corbin, for two reasons, price and wait time. There have been some horror stories coming from Corbin, with wait times in excess of two years.

Good luck with your endeavor, and do your homework. This is an expensive hobby, and having to buy equipment twice, sure doesn't help......

[Reload3006]

Lizard gave you some excellent advice the only thing I can add is other than the Can I do it reason why make a FMJ bullet. unless you plan on being in combat there really is no reason for it. If you research the issue you will find that no "Match" bullet is FMJ but rather open tip and its open tip because its easier to manufacture that way. I am sure this has been discussed in length in other threads but even the army and marine corps match teams use open tip bullets. I knew at one time what the "M" designation for them was but it slips my mind at this time. It was even discussed at length whether or not they could or should be used in combat units. So what I am really getting at is save your money and aggravation and make better bullets with open tip designs. As far as "Match" grade bullets you really cant make a match bullet with a 22lr jacket or with copper tubing you can make a great hunting bullet/plinking bullet with them. It really all depends on what your intended purpose is. if 5 shot one hole at 500yds is your goal then J4 or Sierra jackets are in order and open tip design. If 1 to 1.5 moa is your goal then that can be achieved with tubing and 22LR jackets.

[perotter]

I hate waiting, specialty when I am going to make it for still serving men :) I will treat my self to BT's stuff on a lot of other dies I still need 9mm XTP 45 Acp XTP and .375 for my H&H :) Need to get this started first, I have enjoyed very much all the information BT puts out he is a venerable fountain of information.

In the swapping section of this forum there is a used SAS setup for .30 cal. It's been there for a few days & the last bump was the 13th. I don't know anything about it or if it would fill your needs.

Most of my .30 cal shooting is with cast or I'd have bought it.

[Wayne Smith]

Let me add to what RELOAD3006 said. There is generally no ballistic advantage in a boat tail bullet until you get beyond 500 yds. If you are interested in making very accurate very long range bullets you are on the right track. If you are interested in making bullets for up to 500 yds you are better off with RELOAD's advice.

Something to think about, anyway.

[Thetraveler]

to explain I am making 147FMJBT to match the M80 round in all aspects but more accurate and grater constancy. Have some friends that use a ACOG with the M80 Bullet drop compensation and find their normal M 80 loads a bit sloppy past 500 and also with to big a spread is velocity. So yes its for longer range but a very specific load I am trying to match.

[perotter]

Be mindful that DanR and Edge Dies have both departed from the scene after failed attempts at making .224 bullet swage sets.

Purely in the interest of fact, I see that Edge Dies is again in business listing die sets on Ebay.

I've never had any dealing or communication with him. If I was going to deal with him, I'd check all available info about him.

[DukeInFlorida]

Good flipping luck dealing with that guy..........

Seems to me he still owes some of the swagers some answers, etc.

[algunjunkie]

Stay away from Edge Dies. He has a lot to make up for and owes a lot of people answers and products.

[DukeInFlorida]

Can you give us link??

All I see is this one:
NO eBay links, ever


Purely in the interest of fact, I see that Edge Dies is again in business listing die sets on Ebay.

I've never had any dealing or communication with him. If I was going to deal with him, I'd check all available info about him.

[rockrat]

Never got my dies or a reply to inquiries

[perotter]

Item #: 120986675165

Was sold for the buy it now.

[algunjunkie]

Never got my dies or a reply to inquiries

Same here and he has my press.

[BT Sniper]

WOW! All I can do is shake my head. That certainly isn't any way to run a business. I hope you all get things squared away. Maybe I shouldn't say anything but it troubles me greatly to see attempts like his to ride the coat tails of those of us trying to keep the swage die products and business in good standing.

In the mean time I'll continue to do my best to offer quality products and keep open comunications with all my customers, past, pressent and future.

I hate to take this moment to make a shamless plug for myself and my products but I have worked my but off for more then 3 years now to offer swage dies to the many great members here on this sight and do my best to keep all of you happy with your purchase. I spent a year before that with nearly a thousand posts on this sight regarding my progress with swaging bullets and custom die potential before I ever offered any dies for sale.

Making quality swage dies is not easy and not everyone can do it. I recomend to anyone that is considering the purchase of a set of quality and potentialy expensive swage dies to do your home work, make sure you know exactly what quality of dies you are getting and who you are buying them from. Watch out for those that come in out of the blue and offer a product without any credit to back up their claims.

This is the second failed attempt by someone coming to this great sight with big plans to offer swage dies only to leave everyone hanging. If this sort of thing is allowed to continue it will do nothing but leave a big empty hole in the wallet of those cheated as well as a black mark on the swage die comunitiy and this great sight. You guys should be enjoying making your own bullets and recovering your initial investment, not worrying about how, when or if you will get your money back. Or even worse, you may never consider buying swage dies from anyone ever again.

We have all worked way too hard to make this a great sight and there are many great vendor sponsors here with professional business ethics and quality products to offer. Lets keep it a great sight and help promote the statis of "Vendor Sponsor" to a level that can be look up to with high reguard. Do your research and buy qualtiy products from those vendors, or reputable swage die specialists that you can trust. Watch out for those that come in off the street. Anyone can be a vendor sponsor here, all it takes is a yearly donation but you guys, the customers, the great members of this sight, are the life or death of any of us vendor sponsors. This guy clearly has a different idea of what it means to be a vendor sponsor here. Don't allow this sort of behavior and poor business practice to continue. Avoid buying products from any vendor here that does not provide a professional service and quality product and back up his claims with his established credit to those us on this sight.

OK I'll get off the soap box, I'm sorry to those of you who potentially lost hard earened money and all I can say is that as BTSniper, and a vendor here, I'll do my best to continue to uphold the high standards of what I feel it means to be a vendor sponsor of this great sight and continue to offer qualtiy tools and dies.

Sorry to the original poster of this thread if you feel I lead it a stray. I'll delete and post it else where if need be.

Good Shooting and Swage On!

Brian Thurner

aka. BTSniper

[Thetraveler]

BT no worries on the leading astray thing :) Quick question though how far are you from having your .308 BT dies figured out? And can your .308 form dies be used for FMJ?

[BT Sniper]

boat tail reamer blue prints are at my custom reamer shop. I was quoted 2-3 more weeks.

probably be first of next year for available boat tail dies.

FMJ is nothing more then the bullet formed with the jacket backwords. I don't see the advantage vs. a small .095 or less meplat. I have not tried to form a bullet with teh jacket backwards. Anything is possible but......... why? You could make the bullet the traditional way in the same weight with a small opening in the tip, like the sierra match kings and probably get better accuracy and better formed bullets.

I'm sure my die would make teh FMJ if your hart was set on it. I suppose I'll have to do it first to make sure good results are possible. You would hav eot use commmercial jackets and then you would probably have to trim them first.

Like I always say though.... anything is possible

Brian

[I'll Make Mine]

The biggest reason for FMJ vs. a small meplat hollow point is added penetration -- an FMJ will penetrate 2-3 times as well as a hollow point, other factors equal. Commercial jackets pushes the cost up, but when you *need* an FMJ, a hollow point just won't work.

[rockrat]

Trust me, BT, that many a time I have regretted not waiting for you fine product. Especially when you offered your package deal. I was greatly tempted.

[Thetraveler]

BT, I'll make mine's answer is a good one and all true but not my reason for trying this. I have some friends that are limited by what they are allowed to use in their guns. Rest assured I am not charging for this. Besides that I am doing this for my own good as well (selfish that way) I am trying to duplicate the M80 round, but more accurate and more consistent. I have a H&K MR762A1 with a Trijicon ACOG TA648 308 sight on it. (M80 Bullet Drop Compensation scope) They use the same scope and therefore my gain it theirs as well :)

[BT Sniper]

Yeah, I didn't think about the penitration. I'll try it out as soon as I can and see what I can come up with.

BT

[Thetraveler]

BT any closer to having Boat tales worked out for the .308 ? and have you had a chance to look at the other thing we discussed FMJ's in the same caliber ?

[25/303]

Any luck with the FMJ's?