.50-70 - Muzzle Loader

[newton]

So I am in the middle of trying to do something that is obviously not done much because I am not finding much information on it. I want to shoot a longer boolit out of my 1:28 CVA inline. I know that idahoron has got his perfected, but before I go down that road I was thinking of doing a .50-70 boolit in my gun.

However, in my research to see if it has been done before, I came across an interesting thought. The thought is that of there being too much pressure associated with trying to duplicate a .50-70 or .50-90 in a muzzle loading barrel. I would shrug it off, but is it something to really consider?

What I want to "try" and do is size down the Lee 515-500-F to .510". I was thinking about sizing down part of it even more, but I think I have abandoned that idea. My groove to groove is .510". So the boolit will be the exact size, and it will just be engraving the rifling all the way down.

I understand that this is going to be HARD to get down the barrel. I get it. But, I am ok with that as long as its not impossible or impractical. And by being impractical I mean having to use a vise, press, or some sort of machinery to get it seated. My mind thinks to the Lee REAL's and how they engage the rifling and even the grooves. However, I know that they are 'stepped' in their dimensions, and the bigger .50-70 boolit would have more surface area in contact with the metal of the bore.

I am thinking that the first one, maybe two(with a good spit patch swabbing between), will be fine and that's all I want. At the most 3 shots and I'll be fine with cleaning the gun after that. I have a good side lock I will shoot besides this one and I just want to experiment with this gun, not shoot muzzle loading matches with it.

With all that said, after reading about the pressures I wondered if my plan is safe. Normally a conical will 'bump up' when fired and fill the grooves. Right? Well, with my plan this is not going to be so much the case. The boolit will be groove size to begin with. So am I to be worried about pressure issues?

The gun is a CVA buckhorn magnum. It is rated for those ridiculously high 150 grain charges. I would be shooting a maximum of 90 grains, probably starting at 70 grains.

What say ye? Am I attempting something some one has already got the shirt for? I know a lot has been done in the paper patching arena. But this is different. There is one comment I got on here to try this, but I did not hear much more than that. So I'd be glad to hear people's thoughts on this.

[Good Cheer]

Hey there.
I've shot the Lee 450 grainer cast from straight lead out of a 22" long fast twist .500 bore. Didn't shoot any long range target.
To get it to load it had to be sized .499" while leaving the front large to load as a maxi. Didn't do that in just one sweep through the Lyman lubri-sizer. But it works for shooting off hand out back, making holes in trees coming and going. Have been trying out a .58 caliber Renegade flinter using the same techniques with some successes and promises of more.
I'd dearly love to have a .47 or .51 bore to use available molds. Currently working a TC New Englander with peep on a 26" long .458 bore x 24" twist and will be happy with it for a long time.

[johnson1942]

make a starter to fit over the barrel and cast the bullet in pure lead put black power grease in the grooves . use a ,60 fiber wad between powder and bullet . use 70 grains of 2f. my son gun is like this only in .448 cal has taken 5 deer out to 150 yards and can print in a quarter at 100 yards. the 500 grain bullet is perfect for a 1-28 twist. 50 cal.if you have the use of a lathe it is very simple to make a starter. if you want more info on how to make a starter post again and i will give concise details on it again they are real simplle to make on a lathe even for a non machinest. your on the right track but rember the bullet must be pure lead.

[newton]

Hey there.
I've shot the Lee 450 grainer cast from straight lead out of a 22" long fast twist .500 bore. Didn't shoot any long range target.
To get it to load it had to be sized .499" while leaving the front large to load as a maxi. Didn't do that in just one sweep through the Lyman lubri-sizer. But it works for shooting off hand out back, making holes in trees coming and going. Have been trying out a .58 caliber Renegade flinter using the same techniques with some successes and promises of more.
I'd dearly love to have a .47 or .51 bore to use available molds. Currently working a TC New Englander with peep on a 26" long .458 bore x 24" twist and will be happy with it for a long time.

Yea, I'm trying to stay away from having to size it down that far. And, at the same time I want a tight fitting boolit in hopes of getting maximum accuracy. The less chance it has of getting off centered in the bore, from the initial shove of the charge, the better I figure my chances are. And I figure what better way of ensuring this than to have a boolit that is full groove size.

[newton]

make a starter to fit over the barrel and cast the bullet in pure lead put black power grease in the grooves . use a ,60 fiber wad between powder and bullet . use 70 grains of 2f. my son gun is like this only in .448 cal has taken 5 deer out to 150 yards and can print in a quarter at 100 yards. the 500 grain bullet is perfect for a 1-28 twist. 50 cal.if you have the use of a lathe it is very simple to make a starter. if you want more info on how to make a starter post again and i will give concise details on it again they are real simplle to make on a lathe even for a non machinest. your on the right track but rember the bullet must be pure lead.

Yes sir. I would love to hear more. I have good pure lead to work with. So I am assuming that once it is started then it's not too aweful to get down the bore? I think I can get access to a lathe. So please do explain more. Also, no issues with pressure? And have you ever personally tried the .50 caliber, or just going off the .45 caliber?

Thanks.

[johnson1942]

i have tried the .50 but switched to paper patch in both my fast twist .50s because i ca pump up the volume. go from 1200 ft per sec to 1500 to 1600ft per sec. if you want to contact me by phone or e mail and i will send you a detailed plan for a starter. if you have access to a lathe it will be easy. i supect you will also start a trend when you report back results. you can get my phone number or email if you go to pineridgeblackpowder.com on google.you will also see my big .50 target rifle. she will punch holes in holes. again they are not hard to build. johnson1942

[newton]

Many thanks. I sent you a message from the site. I most certainly do plan on detailing what I find. I really hope to make it work well. I am going to wonder where the threshold is with plain boolits. I would think that with a wad 1500 would be possible. But honestly I am not sure how fast you can push a 500 grain boolit anyways. I am not looking for speed at all. My focus is an accurate rifle with using plain boolits.

I should have the funds to buy the mold and sizer in the coming weeks. Then it will just be a matter of playing with it. I have a CVA, and a friend has a knight. I know that another friend has another one, but I forget what it is. So I will have several different guns to test. My aim right now is really just inlines. I think they would be the closest to imitating the .50-70/.50-90 rifles.

[johnson1942]

i have allways thought this a real underdeveloped area but i can only do so much or handle so much. your on to some thing and i do think starters would sell as their are thousands of round barrel inlines out their. a starter would turn a inline into a real bear or bufflo gun.

[wgr]

you need to look at rcbs molds. they make a adjustable mold . they make one with smooth sides and one with lube grooves . if you like i can look at mine a get the part number. are maybe work out something on some boolits

[idahoron]

The thing I would be worried about is leading in the barrel. Forcing the bullets down is going to remove the lube. Also you would want very pure lead for softness, but forcing that big of a bullet down the pipe is going to mess with the nose of that soft bullet. That would not lead to accuracy in my mind. I know with my paper patched bullets I have mead them a little harder than pure. Pure lead didn't shoot as well. Adding tin to a way oversized bullet is going to be even harder to get down.
As was said before a .47 or a 51 cal fast twist would have a lot of moulds to work with. Ron

[nanuk]

check these guys out: w w w.prbullet.com/

they discuss heavy projectiles

[newton]

you need to look at rcbs molds. they make a adjustable mold . they make one with smooth sides and one with lube grooves . if you like i can look at mine a get the part number. are maybe work out something on some boolits

Ive heard about their molds. Thanks for bringing that up. I would definitely want lube grooves as I am trying to go down the paperless road.

At the same time though, I am trying to do this on a very tight budget. And I am doing it that way for a reason. I figure if I can somewhat get the basics down then others can just tweak it a little.

I can get the .50-70 500 grain mold and a .510" sizing kit shipped to me for under $50 from an online retailer.

Of course then you have to throw in the idea that starters are where the hang up will be, but if they are as simple to make as mr. johnson is suggesting then that wont be too big a deal.

What did your mold run you if you do not mind me asking?

[newton]

The thing I would be worried about is leading in the barrel. Forcing the bullets down is going to remove the lube. Also you would want very pure lead for softness, but forcing that big of a bullet down the pipe is going to mess with the nose of that soft bullet. That would not lead to accuracy in my mind. I know with my paper patched bullets I have mead them a little harder than pure. Pure lead didn't shoot as well. Adding tin to a way oversized bullet is going to be even harder to get down.
As was said before a .47 or a 51 cal fast twist would have a lot of moulds to work with. Ron

I will definitely be curious to see what leading there is. One thing that will be nice about the inline is the fact I can remove the breech plug and look down the barrel. With a .50 cal its easy to see what all is going on in there. However, I really think that a good 100% felt wad underneath is going to reduce the leading a lot. And I think that I will play around with different thickness of the wad. I could get some interesting results from that.

I figure it will remove some lube, but that is one reason to go with the .50-70 boolits. They have lube grooves different(at least they look different) than those of regular cast boolits. I also think that with varying amounts of lube on top of the wad will help.

You do bring up what I think is the most critical portion of this all, messing up the boolit forcing it down. I think that it is going to be the #1 thing to over come. Leading is not that big a deal to me, because I can clean it out and like I said before I only want to have 2-3 perfect shots before having to do a good cleaning. But I wont get those perfect shots if the boolit gets messed up each time I force it down. I am hoping that this is where the starter will help. A bullet like the one you use would be nice to use if it were longer and had grooves like the .50-70 ones Lee makes. The nose is very wide which I think would be best.

I think that the first thing to do is to simulate loading the gun and then take the breech plug out and push the boolit back out. Then I can see just how deformed the nose becomes. I guess another way around this would be to harden just the nose portion, but that becomes a lot more work than I want to tackle.

[chief3]

Some years ago I made a muzzleloader from a 45/70 cadet barrel that was damaged in the chamber . Paid the princely sum of $.50 for it.
Never could get a round ball to work so I did what Johnson1942 did and made a starter to use the 330 gr. Gould hollow point. With 55gr. of FFFG I can hold 2" to 3" at 100 yds. All my 74 yr. old eyes can do with open sights.
I made my starter out of wood (maple) thinking I would use metal if it worked. Well that was 20 years ago and I still haven't gotten around to making one in metal.
Don't see why the same idea wouldn't work for .50 cal.

[newton]

check these guys out: w w w.prbullet.com/

they discuss heavy projectiles

Yes indeed, I have read their stuff. Actually, when I first started thinking about this my first thought was to knurl the boolit that idahoron uses.

[newton]

I am going to check out and see about going with their 209 to the brass small rifle primer adapters. I know small rifle primers are a lot cheaper than the 209 and for sure the #11 caps.

[masscaster]

Hi newton,
I find this to be unsafe in most regards.

Most of this boolit would need to be swaged down to .001 under bore size, then size the top band and shoulder to .002 over. This is how a Maxi works.
Leaving the entire boolit at bore will cause plugging. The coefficient of whats left, i.e. a full wadcutter, will offer minimal accuracy at any usedul distance.
Lets not forget the required powder charge that'll be requiref to move said projectile in a plugged condition.

One solution would be to check a .50 Minie.
Another would be to paper patch a smaller diameter boolit, but I see no sense in a 500gr. boolit in your firearm.
I would say that 350grs. of lead would be the top considering the powder charge required to move such a projectile to 100 yards safely, and accurately.

Neither the boolit, or firearm you've described are designed for the afformentioned application.

Jeff

[newton]

Hi newton,
I find this to be unsafe in most regards.

Most of this boolit would need to be swaged down to .001 under bore size, then size the top band and shoulder to .002 over. This is how a Maxi works.
Leaving the entire boolit at bore will cause plugging. The coefficient of whats left, i.e. a full wadcutter, will offer minimal accuracy at any usedul distance.
Lets not forget the required powder charge that'll be requiref to move said projectile in a plugged condition.

One solution would be to check a .50 Minie.
Another would be to paper patch a smaller diameter boolit, but I see no sense in a 500gr. boolit in your firearm.
I would say that 350grs. of lead would be the top considering the powder charge required to move such a projectile to 100 yards safely, and accurately.

Neither the boolit, or firearm you've described are designed for the afformentioned application.

Jeff

Thanks for the input. This is one thing that I was curious about. Except that when a person thinks about the fact that a .50-70 rifle actually 'swedges' down a .515" boolit when it shoots. I also agree that 500 grains is more than what one needs for stopping power, but it's hardly the biggest boolit to be shot in a .50 caliber rifle. People use 700 grain boolits in their .50-90 quite often.

I would like to understand more of your concerns though. The last thing I want to do is destroy a gun or myself. Do you truly believe that a groove deminsion boolit will plug the barrel? From my understanding, which is limited, a conical gets 'bumped up' when the powder ignites. So I would assume that in all respect that the boolit being already sized full bore then would use the powder more efficiently.

In other words, the energy it took to bump the undersized boolit would instead be used to propell the boolit. As long as there is no air space I cannot see the boolit becoming an obstruction. But please, don't get me wrong, if you can explain a little more I'd be glad to listen.

[newton]

Some years ago I made a muzzleloader from a 45/70 cadet barrel that was damaged in the chamber . Paid the princely sum of $.50 for it.
Never could get a round ball to work so I did what Johnson1942 did and made a starter to use the 330 gr. Gould hollow point. With 55gr. of FFFG I can hold 2" to 3" at 100 yds. All my 74 yr. old eyes can do with open sights.
I made my starter out of wood (maple) thinking I would use metal if it worked. Well that was 20 years ago and I still haven't gotten around to making one in metal.
Don't see why the same idea wouldn't work for .50 cal.

Interesting. So the boolit you shoot is full sized to the groove dimensions?

[chief3]

Yes the boolit is .458 and I use pure lead. I lube with beeswax and crisco. The mix depends on the time of year. Don't shoot it much in the summer though.
Only killed two deer with it since I have other guns I like but 55 gr. of powder was plenty . Didn't need to track either one.

[newton]

Yes the boolit is .458 and I use pure lead. I lube with beeswax and crisco. The mix depends on the time of year. Don't shoot it much in the summer though.
Only killed two deer with it since I have other guns I like but 55 gr. of powder was plenty . Didn't need to track either one.

Hope you don't mind the 20 questions. Once the boolit is started, whats it like getting it the way down the barrel?

[Nobade]

What you are thinking about is how Gonic muzzle loaders were designed to work. They had a deeply recessed crown that fit a plastic funnel type false muzzle and a plunger deal to get the bullet started. As long as the bore is wiped between shots this does work to an extent, and will give good accuracy.

I tried that for a while with my own Gonic, finally decided it wasn't for me and cut and crowned the barrel like normal and now use slightly under bore size paper patched bullets. It now loads way easier, shoots more accurately, doesn't lead the bore, and makes me much happier.

Another thing you can do if you have a section of the barrel on your rifle is to make a press mounted die to pre-rifle the bullets. A straight section to guide it into the barrel section will cut nice curls off the bullet and make it easy to load if you get the grooves lined up. The smokeless powder ML guys do this, and it will work fine with BP too. Of course you have to wipe between shots like before also.

[newton]

Well that was everything I was hoping not to hear. Lol

[wgr]

[QUOTE=newton;1845661]Ive heard about their molds. Thanks for bringing that up. I would definitely want lube grooves as I am trying to go down the paperless road.

At the same time though, I am trying to do this on a very tight budget. And I am doing it that way for a reason. I figure if I can somewhat get the basics down then others can just tweak it a little.

I can get the .50-70 500 grain mold and a .510" sizing kit shipped to me for under $50 from an online retailer.

Of course then you have to throw in the idea that starters are where the hang up will be, but if they are as simple to make as mr. johnson is suggesting then that wont be too big a deal.

What did your mold run you if you do not mind me asking?[/QUO that mold cost around 100

[wgr]

are just size the bottom 2/3 to slip fit the barrel and l leave the driving band over size. the bullet will bump up

[Nobade]

I have a RCBS mould designed for the 500 S&W. That design carries quite a bit of lube, and loaded over a lubed felt wad in my Ruger 77/50 shoots quite well. Size it so it slips down the bore from the weight of the ramrod. It's possible to fire 4 or 5 shots with that boolit without wiping and still have good accuracy. It casts out at .501 - .502"" so depending on the make of your barrel either use it as is or size lightly. Lee makes a .501" size die, so if that is what you need it's cheap.

[Good Cheer]

Yea, I'm trying to stay away from having to size it down that far. And, at the same time I want a tight fitting boolit in hopes of getting maximum accuracy. The less chance it has of getting off centered in the bore, from the initial shove of the charge, the better I figure my chances are. And I figure what better way of ensuring this than to have a boolit that is full groove size.

Trying to get the bullet into the rifling is going to be tough. One method that might interest you is making a rifling engraving die from a piece of the barrel blank. I have one .40 made that way that I am guilty of neglecting. The bullets are pre-rifled and load easily.
For my purposes, the easiest way to get satisfactory results has been to have the barrel made to suit various off the shelf molds. Hence I am shooting a rifle with .458" bore diameter.

[newton]

Trying to get the bullet into the rifling is going to be tough. One method that might interest you is making a rifling engraving die from a piece of the barrel blank. I have one .40 made that way that I am guilty of neglecting. The bullets are pre-rifled and load easily.
For my purposes, the easiest way to get satisfactory results has been to have the barrel made to suit various off the shelf molds. Hence I am shooting a rifle with .458" bore diameter.

I am not sure that per-rifled boolits are how I want to go. It would be time/energy spent one way or the other. I might as well spend it while I'm loading the boolit.

This is not really so much about just using molds available. It is a lot of it, but seeing what kind of difference it makes to shoot a full size boolit instead of it having to bump up initially. It might be worse, it could be better. I have heard it both ways now.

Unless I am completely mistaken, the only reason that ML use boolits that are sized to bore(land to land) is to aid in loading. All other cast boolit shooting is best done when the boolit is a thousand or so over groove to groove diameter. Obviously it would not make any sense to have a boolit oversized and then hammer it down, but it makes sense to me to have one sized to the groove and then just start the rifling.

I'll do some tests when I get started. I'll be curious how much force it is going to require.

[longranger]

I am using a Austin Halleck in line .50 cal with a 560gr. bullet from Paul Jones.I slugged the barrel and he made me a mold that is like the .405 gr. .458 bullet. I use 80 grs. of Swiss 1.5 fiber wad, lubed felt wad, tamp down,seat bullet. I have spent a considerable amount of time with .45.cal 1-18 M/L's and the 50's and all of them shoot extremely well.I would suggest using a platinum lined nipple and magnum caps, have not had good accuracy with the 209 or small rifle priming systems.

[newton]

I am using a Austin Halleck in line .50 cal with a 560gr. bullet from Paul Jones.I slugged the barrel and he made me a mold that is like the .405 gr. .458 bullet. I use 80 grs. of Swiss 1.5 fiber wad, lubed felt wad, tamp down,seat bullet. I have spent a considerable amount of time with .45.cal 1-18 M/L's and the 50's and all of them shoot extremely well.I would suggest using a platinum lined nipple and magnum caps, have not had good accuracy with the 209 or small rifle priming systems.

So your boolit is full groove size? Do you have a starter made? I think the heavier boolits are going to shoot good in mine also. I may eventually get a real good nipple, but funds will have to come first. However, while I was at the store today I picked up a package of knight brand brass small/large rifle holders. You press the primer in, can use just about any kind of centerfire primer, and the it slips on the #11 nipple. Pretty neat. That will save some money right there. #11 caps are $5 a can around me now. I can still pick up primers for $3 a hundred.

Also, what is a 1.5 wad?

[Hiwall55]

You could try a grease cookie to ensure no leading, just load powder,a wad ,a grease cookie ,a wad then bullet

[newton]

You could try a grease cookie to ensure no leading, just load powder,a wad ,a grease cookie ,a wad then bullet

I'll keep that in mind. I did think about it, but wasn't thinking about another wad on top of the cookie.

[longranger]

Initially it was groove dia. and shot really good at the bench but was ever so slightly loose.Because I hunt I didn't want the bullet riding forward above the powder charge and ringing the barrel or some other calamity. I sent the mold back and had it opened .002" . Now it fits snugly and starts fairly easy,groups are still very good. The mold has 2 big lube grooves and would be O.K. to eliminate the lubed felt wad,but the accuracy is so good I don't want to change it.
I do use 2 card wads, one over the powder,tamp,.30 card wad,lubed felt wad, card wad, bullet,seat .

[frontier gander]

370gr maxiball

[Grapeshot]

Many years ago I bought a .50 T/C Hawken and a Lyman .50 Minnie Mold. The design of the Lyman mold was the same as their .50/70 slug except with a hollow cavity. They shot real well out of my Hawken and later out of my Shiloh Sharps Percussion Carbine. I don't think that Lyman produces that mold any more, but it's a start if you have the cash to go custom.

[StrawHat]

This is a GB for a hollow base version of the Lyman 515141, it might be of interest to you.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=116326

[newton]

Thanks for the idea's guys. I really don't have the money to go custom. Not yet at least. I do want to stick with a .510 or bigger boolit. I will be getting a sizing die to go along with the mold in .510 since that is my groove to groove measurement.

I like the look of that GB boolit. But I am curious as to what benefit there would be for a hollow base? It really wont need to expand much because it will be groove size already. Or am I missing the point on a hollow base?

Thanks again

[StrawHat]

...I like the look of that GB boolit. But I am curious as to what benefit there would be for a hollow base? It really wont need to expand much because it will be groove size already. Or am I missing the point on a hollow base?

Thanks again...

Merely giving you another option for a boolit. In my case, I have an 1866 Springfield Single Shot rifle and I need the HB to fill the grooves in the old barrel. The HB also moves the center of gravity forward a bit so I will see if that helps or hurts my shooting.

In my old 50-70, I will be comparing it to the Lyman 515141 and the Lee 515-450, both of which give decnt accuracy with my load.

[newton]

Merely giving you another option for a boolit. In my case, I have an 1866 Springfield Single Shot rifle and I need the HB to fill the grooves in the old barrel. The HB also moves the center of gravity forward a bit so I will see if that helps or hurts my shooting.

In my old 50-70, I will be comparing it to the Lyman 515141 and the Lee 515-450, both of which give decnt accuracy with my load.

I see. Thanks. I just was'nt sure if there was something more or not. The thought did occur that it would transfer the weight forward a bit.

I really think that, based on the research I have done, I need a boolit that is over an inch long. I have a pretty specific set up in mind. I just wish I could get on with it. Soon as I get the money the stuff will be ordered and I should be shooting within a week or two.

[newton]

So, one of the things I got done this weekend is shooting some boolits that were sent to me by mr. johnson.

He had some swagged that were right about what I had envisioned for doing this test. They were 1.165" long, 585 grains, knurled (looked like maybe a paper patch that was knurled), the nose is what I assumed was a half round nose (if that makes sense), and the knurling pushed it up to right about .510". Its hard to check the diameter without pressing down the knurling.

It was a little more weight than I had envisioned shooting. But the length was right on. I would think that a boolit with grease grooves would help in the weight to length ratio. But on the flip side of that, I like the knurling because I felt like it really griped the rifling and maybe made it easier to start?

As far as starting goes, I will try to get a picture of the end of my barrel. It has a rescessed crown that the boolit sits in and then its tapered to into the rifling. I was able to push the boolit halfway in with my thumb, and then the short starter(meant for a ball) made engaging the rest of the rifling an easy task. I am not sure if it was able to get out of square, or if a better starter would do much better at starting it. But the length of the boolit seems to dictate that it would be hard to get in the bore crooked.

As long as I was not rough with it, I did not deform the nose much at all. This may also be a thing in which someone could experiment with hardening the nose just a tad. But, the boolit I am wanting to pursue with this project is a flat nose, so a flat starter might just be the ticket to no nose deformation at all.

With pure lead it was very easy to get down the barrel. I cleaned with spit patches and dry ones between each shot. The only lube I used was alox on the knarling. I applied that with my finger so as to not "tumble" them together messing up the boolits.

So the end result. I shot one that I probably should have foulded the barrel first. But I was too excited to try them and did not think ahead. So it was way off the mark. The next one was a good shot, then the next shot touched that one. The fourth shot was just right at an inch above the two touching ones.

I moved the scope because it was hitting a little low of point of aim, and a little to the right. Then shot and it hit right about where it should for the scope movement. The next shot was way off, but I was rushing because I was late to going somewhere. So I quit for the night. I have 4 more boolits to shoot this afternoon and I am excited to see what they will do.

I was using 70 grains pyro RS. I feel that it was very sufficient for the boolit and it seemed to be ok. I have to really think that I could get a one ragged hole with this boolit by adjusting a few things here and there. I really, really do believe that I am on the right track though. I wondered a bit before, but I am excited now.

I'll get that other mold here and see what it does. It will not be near as heavy as the one I was trying, or as long. But its the closest(and cheapest) to my goal for now. I think in the end that I will wind up with a custom mold. I like the idea of a flat nose versus a round one. And with the right groove depth I think I can reach my desired length to weight point.

Anyways, I'll shoot again tonight and let you know if its a fluke. Hopefully I will have a pretty picture to post tomorrow.

[newton]

Well I shot again. Wish I had more of the boolits than I had left, but am grateful for the ones I received. Really, the reason I wish I had more was because the last boolit I fired had a damaged base and I think is the reason I shot off. Because I really concentrated with that last one, knowing it was my last one. All in all, I could have done a little better with my testing, but the conclusions showed me what I wanted to know.

I had four boolits left. So I figured I should foul with a round ball instead of wasting a boolit. I had cleaned the gun from the day before shooting. Well, the round ball did not foul good enough and I got a flier on the first boolit. But, I shot again, then again...two holes touching. Then the fourth boolit, with the damaged base, hit about 1 1/2" from the others. I know that if it had not been damaged then it would have been closer.

But it gives me hope. I scraped together enough money to get the mold and sizer on the way and will have them here by this weekend I am thinking. So I am REALLY looking forward to this weekend.

One thing I think I mentioned a little, but not much, is the primer set up I have. I found these little jewels at an old store that is going out of business. They slip onto any standard size #11 nipple and hold a large rifle primer. I might mess around with large pistol, and magnum with both, to see if there is any difference there. But the large rifle seems to be just fine. It also makes it VERY easy to put on the nipple and take off. And, there is no way to accidentally set one of by seating it. They only work in the in-lines, unless a hammer was modified to set them off. Very nice little things. I think the store has more and I am tempted to buy all they have. Well worth the money.

http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t395/nathanhooper1/585test_zpsac3a42b9.jpg

http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t395/nathanhooper1/primers_zps4acb2fbe.jpg

The blue/purple circles were the out of group shots that I know why. The top target was from Sunday, the bottom from yesterday. The top 'flier' was when I adjusted my scope. The bottom 'flier' was the first fouling shot.

[newton]

Not sure why the picture is rotated. Sorry.

[newton]

While I am thinking about it, can any body tell me an educated guess at what my velocity might be around when I start shooting the 500 grain boolits? I plan on shooting 75-80 grains of Pyro RS. Not sure if Quickloads does muzzleloading or not. I figured I might find something by looking up regular .50-70 data, but I cannot.

Thanks.

[fouronesix]

Well, I have to make some assumptions here. I think you are wanting to shoot a 50 cal 500 gr bullet over about 80 gr (BP volume equivalent) of Pyro RS? If that is the case the closest data I could find is in the Lyman BP Handbook. It lists a 50 cal 490 gr conical over 80 gr (BP volume enquivalent) Pyro RS out of a 24" barrel. Muz vel- 1203. If you want to shoot an 80 gr weighed charge of Pyro- then I don't know.

[newton]

Well, I have to make some assumptions here. I think you are wanting to shoot a 50 cal 500 gr bullet over about 80 gr (BP volume equivalent) of Pyro RS? If that is the case the closest data I could find is in the Lyman BP Handbook. It lists a 50 cal 490 gr conical over 80 gr (BP volume enquivalent) Pyro RS out of a 24" barrel. Muz vel- 1203. If you want to shoot an 80 gr weighed charge of Pyro- then I don't know.

You assume right. That is my thought, measured by volume. And my barrel is 24", which helps with the determination. Thanks for looking the info up for me.

I am going to try some longer range tests once I get the accuracy thing down. This will help me get an idea of where it could be hitting. I know that this boolit is going to drop like a rock past 150 yards.

[newton]

Finally got around to getting the picture of my muzzle crown. As you can see from the picture, the bore is not in the best shape. But I have learned that a little rust is not going to hurt accuracy as much as one would think. You can see how I can set the boolit down in a good ways though.

http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t395/nathanhooper1/muzzlecrown_zpsf59f2526.jpg

[newton]

Got the mold in. Got some boolits cast. Man am I loving it. I felt like a little kid when they started dropping good. The mold casts a rather round grease groove. When I run them through the sizer they flatten out, but still retain their grooves. Also, the base of the boolit is very rounded, and when it gets sized down it becomes a little bevel and very nice. I was afraid that it would leave a skirt on the base, but it works out just perfectly. They are right about 515 grains.

I have not put one down the barrel yet, but it seems to me that its not going to be that difficult. It is now sized to my groove diameter, so only the rifling will be engaging the lead and causing resistance. The grease grooves are way smaller than bore size, so they wont be touching anything. I will measure them later to know what they are for sure.

I am going to try a few different things as far as lube is concerned. And I would like to try different wad set ups as well. I know that it will need them. I have 1/8" wool felt ones. But not any card ones. Can someone suggest a common material I can punch them out from? I have heard milk cartons, but is there anything else?

I'll shoot them either tomorrow afternoon or Sunday afternoon. Now I just need to figure how hard I can safely and effectively push them. I know my gun is rated for a 150 grain charge, but I am not sure what grain boolit they base that on. I have no desire to put that much in, but I would like to see what happens at a 100 grain charge. I am going to start out at 80 grains though. I was up to 75 grains with the 585 grain boolits and they were doing fine.

http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t395/nathanhooper1/50hammerJPG_zps204d55b4.jpg

[newton]

That's a boolit that has been sized in the picture. I thought I brought one that I had left un-sized, but I didn't.

[nanuk]

start low, work your way up for accuracy


I have shot a 150gr charge behind a 410gr boolit..... the boolit struck the ground about 35 yds out, 10yds right.... aiming point was a dot at 75yds

and it HURT! but after I got the snot wiped off the stock, the rifle appeared fine.

but I don't go over 100gr now, as that is where mine is most accurate.


also, I bought a setup to relieve the muzzle, to allow easier loading.

I think it is about 0.525. I reamed it down about 0.750 so a 385gr remington boolit fits near flush, then I hammer it with the short starter. Ramrod seats it.

[newton]

start low, work your way up for accuracy


I have shot a 150gr charge behind a 410gr boolit..... the boolit struck the ground about 35 yds out, 10yds right.... aiming point was a dot at 75yds

and it HURT! but after I got the snot wiped off the stock, the rifle appeared fine.

but I don't go over 100gr now, as that is where mine is most accurate.


also, I bought a setup to relieve the muzzle, to allow easier loading.

I think it is about 0.525. I reamed it down about 0.750 so a 385gr remington boolit fits near flush, then I hammer it with the short starter. Ramrod seats it.

Wowser! I can't say that I have the 'package' to load 150 grains in behind my boolit. I hear you on the short starter. I am going to need one if I continue with my project unless another avenue makes it better.

[newton]

Well, got out and shot Saturday. It was sleeting at my house, enough to make me have to stop a few times because I was afraid I was starting to compromise my powder. And it may have, but I won't blame the results on it.

All in all it was a nice test. I am very, very happy. They had to be the absolute hardest boolits to seat. I was spoiled with the knurled ones I got from Mr. Johnson. I will need a starter built if I am going to proceed without changing anything. But I have plans on trying my very first thoughts of this experiment which was a smaller sized boolit knurled up to groove size. I know that the knurling loads easier, even without need for a starter.

I shot with 80 grains of pyro RS. I think that it is the load. I will play more with different powder charges, but not until I get the seating thing figured out. I deformed the noses on several of the boolits pretty bad. But the surprising thing is they shot great even still. I think that if I can get them down the bore without deforming them I can reach my goal of all holes touching at 100 yards.

I will work on it more this week, hope to have more to post with better results. Here is a picture, its turned sidways because it looks funny up and down. Anyways, I shot a total of 10, but the other 4 are on another target and were to get me sighted in. These six are the last six I shot. As the barrel got dirtier, the shots got higher. Also, I am almost positive the fliers were the bad nose ones.

Almost there!

http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t395/nathanhooper1/hammertest1_zps60f245cf.jpg

[johnson1942]

get bullets .50 and knarl them to what you want in size. lube with a lube like alox and let it dry. knarlers can be obtained from RCE or corbin. dont give up, you will achive what you want.

[newton]

get bullets .50 and knarl them to what you want in size. lube with a lube like alox and let it dry. knarlers can be obtained from RCE or corbin. dont give up, you will achive what you want.


Is that what those boolits you sent me started out as? Swagged at .500" and then knurled up to the .510"? I measured them right at .510" which is the exact size I am looking for. I have been wondering how much I can knurl one up.

I got the .510" sizer from Lee. But there is just too much friction to seat those boolits the way I want to. I think, and wish I could just test the theory out, that a .505" sized boolit knurled up is where my sweet spot will be. I might be wrong. The ones you sent were perfect. I could seat them halfway with my thumb and then the rest with a simple short starter. It did not deform the boolit at all.

But if they started out as .500" then it might make a difference because I was just pushing against the knurling and usually knurling is softer because it has been 'worked'.

I would love to get this ironed out by the end of next week but the only thing standing in my way is money. But I guess that is the case for most things.

[johnson1942]

newton: have fun my friend, 32 bullets knarled and lubed, wads both poly and fiber, and a extra knarler i had will arive at your mail box in a day or two. it is between your house and my house as we speak. i wll do more to day and try some preingraved ones if yours is a 8 lands and groove barrel? if it is a 7 then i will just send them as is and you can now do what you want with them. the very best gripping bullet but easy to load is .501 or .502 than knarled and lubed and let dry with lee alox. gotta go and take my boy to schooljohnson1942

[newton]

Sir, you are a gentleman and scholar. Words cannot describe.

[johnson1942]

thanks: is your barrel a 8 groove or a 7 groove?

[newton]

Sorry, I do not have the gun in hand to check. Will do it tonight. Its a CVA buckhorn. I'll try to find the specs on it.

[johnson1942]

your cva has 6 lands and grooves so i cant preingrave a bullet for you, the others will work though.

[newton]

your cva has 6 lands and grooves so i cant preingrave a bullet for you, the others will work though.

Well, it just so happens that right after I posted that my wife calls and tells me our son got sick at school. So I went and took him home. Looked at the gun while I was there. 8 lands and grooves.

But a question I would have is if the grooves and lands of a gun are standard? If so, then I guess I could shop around for a broken gun and make a pre-ingraver. Yes - no?

But honestly, I tell you the truth that it was very easy to load those knarled boolits. I am going to take a video of it all, the shooting, and the subsequent targets. I'll post it when I get it done so that it will help people see exactly what I am doing and what its like. Pictures really help, but sometimes actual video helps more.

Thanks again. I have been racking my brain for a while thinking of how I was going to build a knurling tool. I tried two files and while I think it could be done that way, it sure would be slow. Then I saw a thread somewhere and someone built one with three knarled cylinders and was spring loaded. That was what I was going to do. If I was a rich man I would just buy the corbin one because it looks the easiest of them all.

But you took a load off when you said you sent an extra one. I owe you big time. I leave for muzzle loading season deer camp in a couple of weeks and while I had originally thought I would take my .54, I was really wanting to get this boolit thing straight and be able to take it also. I will wind up taking them both, they say there are hogs down there. But regardless it is going to be a good day when I reach my accuracy goal with that gun of mine, and that's what I am aiming for right now.

[johnson1942]

well the guy at cva didnt know his product, he told me 6 lands and grooves. you have a 8, i think mine may match up close enough. i will send them soon and you just put them in the muzzle, turn with your finger and you will feel with slight down ward pressure if the bullet starts to ingage the lands. it may work. got to go dig potatoes, johnson1942

[newton]

well the guy at cva didnt know his product, he told me 6 lands and grooves. you have a 8, i think mine may match up close enough. i will send them soon and you just put them in the muzzle, turn with your finger and you will feel with slight down ward pressure if the bullet starts to ingage the lands. it may work. got to go dig potatoes, johnson1942

Ok. Thanks. I'll let you know soon as I find out.

[newton]

So with the advent of having a knurling tool on the way I figured I better pick up my pace on getting another sizer going. I got the one, .510", when I got the mold. But I was not thinking in advance to get another and I was thinking if anything I would need a .504".505", and that would have to be custom. But in all honesty, I just do not have the money for custom work right now.

However, necessity is the mother of all invention. So I got a 7/8" bolt and a 1/2" drill bit. Locked it up in a vise on the drill press. Then proceeded to drill about the most off centered hole you can imagine. I was kicking myself for not drilling a pilot hole after I spent a while finding the center of the bolt. Oh well. I figured I would try it out to see if it would work or not anyways.

Well after that I took a larger bit and chambered one end. Then I found a 1/2" rod of some kind that was threaded at one end. I took a nut that fit it and filed away at it to make it fit into a #2 lee shell holder. Then this rod screws into the nut, and walla I have a punch for the sizing die. Whats nice is that the rod was long enough that it actually pushes the boolit all the way out of the die. I threaded the sizing die to screw into my press. Not an easy task with a manual threading die, but it worked.

So it actually works. I did some polishing to the inside with sand paper and a wooden dowel. Then followed it with steel wool. I have to turn the die and the punch for them to line up without getting jammed in one another. The hole was not only off centered, it was at an angle. Man I wish I had a lathe. But if all works I will wind up ordering a custom die from a fellow member and Arkansan.

The sizer I built sizes them to a tad under .504". I did not mic them, I just know my calipers are reading between .503" and .504". Closer to the later. I think I might try a few at that size, but I still think that the best thing is to knurl them back up to .510". I also will eventually get a .501" die to see what the difference is like.

http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t395/nathanhooper1/sizingdie_zpscf34e347.jpg

http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t395/nathanhooper1/dieinpress_zps8a23bc0b.jpg

http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t395/nathanhooper1/3difsizes_zps6d9f0cf7.jpg

Here is a picture of the the three stages of the boolit. Unsized, .510" sized, and then .504" sized.

[johnson1942]

newton: your knarler should be their today or tomorrow. it is adjustable as to how much knarling you put on it. if they work at .504 your at home plate. if they are to hard to go down then go to .502 instead of .501 for more bite. my favorite lube is still lee alox and let it dry before useing. it really helps the bullet grip the bore. i also sent you a bunch of fiber and poly wads to put between the bullets base and powder. every time i tried a felt wad the groups went bad. it also helps to wipe the bore with a dry patch after the bullet is set on the powder. just make sure the vacuum doesnt pull the bullet off of the powder. their is a gun smith in virginia who shoots bullet guns similiar to what you are doing 1000 yards at targets and i understand his barrels are 26 to 28 inches. their is real potential here accracy and a leap in knock down power. keep us in the loop newton.

[newton]

newton: your knarler should be their today or tomorrow. it is adjustable as to how much knarling you put on it. if they work at .504 your at home plate. if they are to hard to go down then go to .502 instead of .501 for more bite. my favorite lube is still lee alox and let it dry before useing. it really helps the bullet grip the bore. i also sent you a bunch of fiber and poly wads to put between the bullets base and powder. every time i tried a felt wad the groups went bad. it also helps to wipe the bore with a dry patch after the bullet is set on the powder. just make sure the vacuum doesnt pull the bullet off of the powder. their is a gun smith in virginia who shoots bullet guns similiar to what you are doing 1000 yards at targets and i understand his barrels are 26 to 28 inches. their is real potential here accracy and a leap in knock down power. keep us in the loop newton.

Thank you again. I feel like a kid at Christmas. I got my boolits ready to be knarled and then I'll lube and let dry. Might get a chance to shoot Sunday afternoon.

I hope they are not too bad. If I work on drilling the right sized hole I can probably punch out another sizer at .501-.502 sometime next week. I really do appreciate the help with this.

I did follow your advice on wiping the barrel after loading the boolits. Both the ones you previously sent and the ones I tried last weekend. I only found one time that the vacuum pulled the boolit off the seat, but it goes to show you should always check.

I stopped at the local pawn shop the other day. I was showing them the boolit I am making and what I am making it for. They were amazed that I would shoot such a heavy one. They asked, "what are them things good for, 100..150 yards?" I chuckled inside and told them that there are people who routinely use this same boolit in a center fire gun for 1000 yard matches. Guess people think that a heavy hunk of lead cannot fly very far. I know better.

My barrel is only 24". But if it works I am going to be on the lookout for a gun with a longer barrel. And you are correct Sir. I am most looking forward to the knock down power of these things. What will be nice is to also have the accuracy associated with it. The two combined will be a good game getter.

[johnson1942]

newton: my sons gun has only a 26 inch barrel in .448 cal. and it drives tacks. it shoots a 400 grain bullet. i shot a deer at 135 yards once with it and my partner said you missed because the bullet plowed a furrow 200 yards out their in that hill. then the deer turned toward us and two ribs were sticking straight out about 6 inches, then it fell over. your bullet will weigh 500 to 550 grains or more. by the way every one i saw the biggest bull elk i have ever seen go by on the back of a pickup truck. they hunt them east of here at valentine ne. his rack was huge. gives a guy the fever. your bullet will make that gun of your a perfect elk gun.

[newton]

Got out yesterday with the new boolits. Thanks to the generosity of Mr. Johnson I now have a knurling tool. It took a little bit to get the hang of how exactly I needed to knurl them, but once figured out it was a cinch.

Here is a picture of one knurled and one after I had loaded it and pushed it back out.

http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t395/nathanhooper1/3474EE2D-33B1-4FE2-9FBB-D6D0FA4989CE-366-0000006BD0DD77D1_zpsb74b469f.jpg

It is as easy to load as a sabot. I will take a short video to show this. There is still some room to play around with the size as far as pre-knurling goes. I think I do need to bring them down to .500" or .501" then knurl back up.

However, these things load and shoot just like I had hoped for. I think that the velocity estimation with my 80grain by volume charge is right on at around 1200 fps. I only got to shoot three times yesterday, but where I was shooting I was 4 3/4" high at 60 yards. Got two holes touching so I was telling the guys there I wish I could shoot further. The one said we could shot this one way so I looked that way.

There was a nice little open lane and a tree that looked a good ways off. Turns out with my range finder it was a tad under 125 yards. I looked up the ballistics and it showed that I should have a 125 yard zero. He rode over there and stapled a paper plate to the tree. I loaded and shot. Looking back I wish I had asked him to put a dot or something on the plate because I really did not have anything to aim at than just trying to center the plate.

After the shot the plate was gone. He rode over and got it. I could see the massive hole in the tree so I knew I hit near the plate. When he got back I had hit 1 1/4" high and 1 1/2" to the right of dead center. To say the least I was tickled.

I am going to do accuracy tests this evening at 100 yards. It will be a while, but eventually I will get out to a place where I can set up at all different ranges up to 250 yards. I cant wait till I get to do that. I truly, without a doubt, think that I can get 2" or less groups at 200 yards. Sure I'll be about 22" low at 200 yards, but that is easy enough to overcome if you know that's where its hitting.

I wish I had a mil-dot scope. Then I could tell how many inches(or there about) something is. I can do it somewhat with where the thin line meets the thick line on my scope, but that is only one reference point.

Regardless, I doubt I will ever shoot an animal that far. But I know its capable of it. However I do know that anything that is 150 yards or closer is in trouble with this load. I'll have more to share tomorrow hopefully.

[newton]

Figured I would update this since I did do the testing.

I did shoot the other night and was confused to say the least. I was shooting all over the 8x11 piece of paper. Shots on the right of the paper, shots on the left of the paper, one shot in the middle. I finally called it quits because I was only burning powder at that point.

What I believe, and really hope because the alternative is not going to make me happy, is that the new lube I was using had gummed up the barrel pretty good and the recessed crown. In my other tests I just used straight alox. It worked great. But this time I decided to use my 45colt lube which is 50/50 alox/beeswax. I dipped them in the lube and then just wiped out the excess after loading.

But I think it left too much behind in the barrel and crown. The one time I did take the boolit and scraped off as much lube as I could, then I really swabbed the barrel with several wet patches and several dry patches. That shot was in the middle. But I think by that time the lube had done its dirty work and my barrel just needed to be cleaned.

The only other thing I can think of is that my scope bit the dust. I hope not. I made up some more boolits, only going to lube them with alox. I cleaned the gun real good and am going to try again tonight or tomorrow.

[newton]

I got out yesterday and shot the gun again. I had made up 12 boolits. 6 were sized to .501" before knurling and 6 sized to .504" before knurling. They did seem to shoot a little different, but I ran out of light before I could be definitive on that. I do think I like the .504" sized better though.

I had two significant fliers. One was a fouling shot, the other was who knows what exactly. It was the second shot so maybey my barrel really likes to be dirty to shoot. There is some significant rust/pitting in there. But obviously not enough to make too much difference except for the initial shot.

http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t395/nathanhooper1/F0B1A99E-09E1-48C2-844C-CDC23F94BF34-4235-00000318E37093EA_zps3f5473e8.jpg

The four shots on the right are the main group. Then there are the obvious fliers, and the two in the green were when I moved the scope and used the other boolits. The 3 shot group was under an inch thanks to the two almost stacked on top of each other. The fourth opened it up to an inch. The ones in the green looked to group good too if I had continued.

I get to try it out at 200-250 yards this afternoon. I am really wondering what will happen. I hope to report good things.

[newton]

Got to try 200 yards. Not happy. I don't live near there and had no way of going back home quick. After the first shot I noticed the powder in my measurer looked different. I had dumped a brass flask of powder in my lb bottle of RS. Turns out I think it way Pyro P. The grains of powder were different sizes in the measurer. I shot a total of 5 times before I was just to sick to do more and ran out of time. Different velocity really plays havoc on boolit impact. I'll have to try again another day.

However I went out today to shoot again at my house. I set up a 125 yard target because that is what I want my zero at. I started with a clean barrel and it took two shots before I hit and started grouping. I noticed this before. I am at a loss of what to do. I can't sight in for a clean barrel with this gun, and it holds groups all day long with a fouled one. I don't like to leave a barrel dirty, but I know it won't hurt except for long periods of time. Any suggestions???

[nanuk]

Tape..... electricians tape.

warm the barrel well, and tape the muzzle up tight, put a wad of flagging tape into the nipple area, and let the striker down on it tight

I forgot one one year and it sat all winter fouled and taped up with a load in it...

fired normal the next spring, and barrel is as shiney as day one.

YMMV