458 Winchester magnum

[Dogmann]

Hi guys! new guy here... I bought a 458 win mag in a beautiful Ruger#1. I was hoping to load some softer shooting loads using a cast bullet. Some guys swear by trail boss with magnum primers and a cast bullet. What's a good 405 or 300-350g bullet that I can use in my 458 and still use in my 45/70?...

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Hi and welcome to the forum. Between Lyman, Redding, RCBS and Lee there are many bullet designs and weights to choose from. "Softer" is a relative term depending on the individual. You can start with the lighter bullets in the 300+ weight range, or the medium-400 grain league or the big-500 ballpark. Some have gas check (expensive) capability for use at higher velocities-some don't. You have to first of all decide what you want/intend to do with the caliber/bullets....target? hunt? Go online and check catalogs of the bullet mold makers listed above.Most 45 caliber cast bullets should drop at .459-.460" from the mold for adequate bore fit. I shoot a lot of 45/70 and use Lyman 457124-a 385-405 grain round nose. I can load it softer at around 1200-1300 fps or push it up to around 1700 fps (way below what you can get out of a 458 Win Mag), but still it can deliver a lot of muzzle energy. What the other guys use and swear by isn't necessarily good for you. Trail Boss is a good powder and has many applications, but there are many other choices in the powder world that work well too. I use 3031...a medium powder and it works well for me in the accuracy department and that "a" word is really what counts. I suggest that you get a good loading manual and a source for info on loading the 458 and the 45/70. There is a lot of info around from reputable sources; do some searching here on the forum, do some reading up. Punch up 458 Winchester Mag on the net and 45/70 and see what is floating around. Also don't get captivated by "the guys'" tales of adventure with 500 grain bullets and stopping any kind of charging Greyhound Bus. Those 500 grainers dish out a lot of really punishing recoil...ok if you're hunting elephant, but otherwise not fun! As the MV goes up (with increasing charges) even with lighter bullets, the "smack" factor increases at both ends. Good shooting. LLS

[Dogmann]

I may hunt twice a year with it but 99% of the time it will be a target range gun. So I'm looking for mild to mid stuff. I did get two boxes of hornady 500grainers for fee along with 200 magnum primers. I have the the IMr3031 also. This is all stuff my buddy at a shop has given me. Once I started reading I learned that there is no such thing as a soft shooting 500grainer. I don't even think trail boss would move those 500grainers!

So I'm just looking for ideas on soft to mid 458 loads.

[curator]

35-40 grains of IMR 3031 and a 400-420 plain base ACWW bullet is a nice load in my .458WinMag. A tuft of Dacron or Kapok to hold the powder against the primer end gives a bit more consistency on velocity. If you don't get good accuracy with this load your bullet may need to be a little larger. My .458 bore needs .462 slugs to shoot accurately.

[PS Paul]

My former post '64 Model 70 Safari Express .458 shot cast boolits REALLY well. Sorry I traded it off, but I kept the dies just in case..... Had a peep sight with bead on a blade front post and would keep 3 in about 1.5" at 100 yards back when I had better eyesight. Usually 405 gr. boolits is what I used at reduced velocities with 3031 like Le Loup suggested. Can't exactly recall the load, so I will refrain from posting or suggesting that, but despite all the BS I used to get from armchair shooters tellin' me, "You'll lead up yer bore", I always had good results with that barrel and a .458-sized 405 grainer. Shot some of the 500 gr. bronze/brass solids (pretty punishing recoil at the bench) and semi-jacketed 300 gr., but the best results ALWAYS came with that 405 gr. boolit. I just cannot remember which mould cuz I never actually casted for it.....

Just my .02, that's all, to simply let you know you CAN do it and have great results!
Paul

[Tatume]

Hi Dog,

My Ruger No. 1 458 Win Mag likes any 45-70 bullet just fine. These guns have a long throat to keep pressures down under the tropical sun, so seating your bullets long may give an accuracy advantage. Any starting load with 3031, 4198 or 4895 will work fine. Lots of people here like fillers, but my experiments indicate they are neither needed nor desirable.

Take care, Tom

[Dogmann]

I'm new to this. I do have a brother in law who has been reloading 45/70,45/90 and 45/120(?) for a long time and he's going to help me. But I read that when using reduced loads in that big case that filler has to be used. Is this true? What about using magnum primers...would that help?

Then there's TrailBoss powder. I've read that this is great for reduced loads...?

[runfiverun]

it [trail boss] is especially for the lower end loads you are looking for.
a filler will help in certain instances.
22.5-24.5 grs of 2400 and a 400 ish [375-435] boolit does like a tuft of dacron [14-1550 fps]
this helps with ignition consistency.
magnum primers can be counter productive with light powder loads.

[Dogmann]

Should I be looking at .458 or .459 bullets for
My ruger 458WM & 45/70?

Anyone here use bear tooth bullets ? I like their 350g pile driver lite..

[Jim]

If you're not familiar with slugging your barrel, ask your BIL if he is. If he's not, there's lots of info here on how to do that. Slugging the barrel will tell you what size of boolit you need.

There's a few thousand years of experience here. Post your questions, regardless of how simple you think they are. You'll get answers and lots of help.

[Dogmann]

Thanks
I just you tubed a few videos- doesn't look
Too hard .

[W.R.Buchanan]

Dog: RCBS makes the .45-300FNGC, .45-405 FNGC and the .45-500 FNGC. These boolits are all essentially the same but for length and are designed to run in Leverguns. The nose is the same down to the crimp groove and then the longer boolits just have more driving bands.

A good place to start would be the 300 gr boolit with 25 gr of XMR 5744 powder. Regular primers are fine. Probably 1200-1300 FPS. With 35 gr of the same powder you are in the 1600 fps range

This will do anything you want here in the US. If you want to go heavier then the 405 gr boolit is an option.

Your Ruger barrel should be right at .458 as Ruger is pretty consistant (you can make sure by sluggging it) so a .459 or .460 sized boolit is what you're looking for.

These will interchange between your .45-70 and .458WM.

If you look at it the .458 is "essentially" a belted .45-70.

Randy

[Dogmann]

Thanks. I have magnum rifle primers are these ok with that powder...

[Dogmann]

I have 3031 and I'm getting trail boss

[W.R.Buchanan]

The Magnum primers will work, they are just not necessary with 5744.

Better to save them for something that needs magnum primers like .44 Mag loads with H110.

Trailboss and 3031 also don't need mag primers, no big deal with Trailboss , however with full loads of 3031 they could be a problem.

Randy

[Dogmann]

When using magnum
Primers with 3031
Why Should I Worry?

[white eagle]

you don't have to necessarily worry some just don't like to use mag primers
follow the advice of the loading manual you are using for now at the beginning
as you progress into the madness you will learn to experiment with different powders and
primers and the like
Stay safe

[W.R.Buchanan]

Magnum primers are hotter,,, Therefore they ignite more of the powder charge faster. Therefore the pressure will be higher than the same load with regular primers .

This will only be a problem with loads approaching maximum, as the primer could be enough to throw you into high the pressure zone.

Like White Eagle said, "read and follow the advice in your loading manuals."

Randy

[Dogmann]

Found a nice article on reduced loads...

http://www.huntfishnw.com/index.php?topic=5923.0

[Dogmann]

Anyone ever load a 405gr with 62 GRAINS OF H-4198 ? Is this a still relatively easy on the shoulder or a thumper?

[PS Paul]

That load with 4198, although reduced from what you would feel with a 500 gr. solid, IS a thumper! You can do it, but I used to use that very boolit weight and powder up to 66 gr., if memory serves correctly, and it was still somewhat "uncomfortable" after several rounds, especially at the bench. With the #1 express sights, it is not too bad when standing up and shooting offhand. My model 70 had a peep sight arrangement and i used to have to "neck in" and lower my chin to use the peep, which exacerbated the felt recoil. especially seated at the bench.

All that said, give it a whirl. I would say it is about "medium-heavy" recoil, if that makes sense??
Paul

[swheeler]

Anyone ever load a 405gr with 62 GRAINS OF H-4198 ? Is this a still relatively easy on the shoulder or a thumper?

Never, but 500 gr Hornady with 64 gr H4198, you definately know it went off, same with 74 gr Imr 4895 and same bullet. Looking for an accurate cast load that is mild enough for 50 off the bench. 500 gr Lee, 57(56-58) gr 3031 does -1800. If women and kids are involved try 18(17-19) gr unique, -1200, both are accurate in my rifle. Heavier/longer bullets might work to your advantage especially in the one shooter where you can seat LONG

[rintinglen]

For a fun plinker, 25 grains of 2400 with a 350 grain boolit and a Dacron filler is hard to beat. I used 457-192 Lymans, but the Lee boolit of the same weight should do just as well. In a 22 inch Barrel Mauser that I briefly owned, I got excellent 50 yard groups with the express sights. Velocities ran about 1400 fps and it hit about 12 inches lower than factory equivalent loads. I used my 45-70 dies to reload the 458. I used the sizer to simply "neck" the case down, running the case in the die only until there as enough neck tension to hold a boolit, then I reloaded as usual. I only had 20 cases, and did not keep the gun long, so I was not able to experiment much. But that load was the best reduced load that I tried. That gun was just a little too much "fun" for me, especially with full loads, so I let it go with no regrets. "Enough is as good as a feast," when it comes to recoil.
I would add that I was not able to get good accuracy with the RCBS 45-300 GC, at least not at low velocities.

[Dogmann]

Thanks guys.

[Just Duke]

Good info.

[DLCTEX]

I cast the Lee 457-340F for our 45-70 and for a friend who shoots them in a 458 and 45-70. I beagle the mould to drop .460 and size to .459. I prefer to shoot loads using SR4759 powder in the guide gun. It's bulk fills the case more with light loads and it's slower burn doesn't kick as bad in the Marlin Guide Gun. I also like the Ranch Dog 460-340 and 460-420, but these are no longer in production and require the extra expense of a gas check.

[Dogmann]

I may be picking up
A 458 Lott - any problem with 458 win mags in the Lott ?

[Dogmann]

Primers are
Hard to come by so all I have is the magnum. Will
These work?

[Dogmann]

Need some 405 cast loads with trail boss and anything else.

[Tatume]

Hi Dog,

Still chasing this one? Try http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/ , click on the 458 Winchester Magnum and scroll down to the 405 cast bullet section, and then look at the Trail Boss data.

Take care, Tom

[Dogmann]

Yeah. What's another good fluffier powder that fills these cases quicker with less? SR4759 is there another ?

[Lloyd Smale]

I had one just like yours and for a enjoyable load I loaded the 500 grain rcbs rfgc with 22 grains of 2400. It shot moa out of my #1. I cast them out of #2. That bullet was hands down the best shooting bullet out of my #1 at any velocity. They are deap throated though and I only lubed the first three groves and crimped in the forth lube grove.

[Dogmann]

Bumping this for more loads...

[DDriller]

22 grains of Trail Boss should be about 1100 fps with a 500 grain bullet

[W.R.Buchanan]

Look in manuals for reduced .45-70 loads. They will work just fine in your gun and not beat the snot out of you.

You never said if your Ruger #1 was a full size rifle or the smaller jungle version? The smaller lighter version is around 8 lbs! and is going to get old really fast with heavy loads.

Randy

[Dogmann]

Well. A number 1H 458 is a No1 not the smaller no3.

[richhodg66]

Look in manuals for reduced .45-70 loads. They will work just fine in your gun and not beat the snot out of you.

You never said if your Ruger #1 was a full size rifle or the smaller jungle version? The smaller lighter version is around 8 lbs! and is going to get old really fast with heavy loads.

Randy

In my .458, the Lyman 500 grain round nose (sorry, can't remember the mold number) and the starting load my 1970s Lyman manual gave of about 17 grains of Unique is surprisingly accurate and you can feel it, but it sure isn't gonna beat you up, even from a bench. It's pretty much a Trapdoor Springfield .45-70 level load which has enough power to flatten anything you'd shoot in North America.

I'm sure I'll never hunt anything with my .458, but that this is a hoot to punch holes in paper with, I enjoy it very much.

[stubshaft]

Most 458's have a lot more freebore than 45/70's, and although lighter boolits shoot acceptably out of the 458. The best accuracy I have gotten out of my pre 64 model 70 and Ruger 1H has been with the 462560, 550 gr. "Thor's Hammer".