6.5 X 55, twist rate & light bullets

[Jim]

I have a 6.5 X 55 Swede. I don't know the twist rate because I've never checked it. That I can do.

Based on what y'all know about this caliber, should I be able to load 87 gr. FLGCs at a relatively fast velocity and get them to balance? Somebody gave me several hundred Sierra bullets, all 87 grainers, in JSP and HP. I'm hoping I can use them in this rifle for shootin' them thar varmints!

[Old Coot]

Jim; While most 6.5x55 have a 1in 8 or 9 twist to stabilize 160 gr. bullets I think you can still shoot real light bullets like those 87 gr. Sierras. If I were loading them I would not try to "hot rod" the loads. I wouldn't try to push them more than about 3000 fps to 3200fps as long as you can stay with safe pressure limitations.

Too much twist (too fast) for the length of the bullet will "over stabilize" the slug and it will float down at long range like a well spiraled foot ball, and not land point first. I don't think the varmits will care a whole lot. Brodie

[madsenshooter]

You mean you never saw that group off to the side with the olympic type score cards keeping track of the hits? They're the ones we learned about the failures of jacketed bullets from. Entry was perfect form on that one, oh a miss, slight over expansion on that one, and a bit of yaw, not perfectly centered, score of 7.

[higgins]

I've shot 85 and 100 gr jacketed bullets in a 6.5x55 military 96 Swede with better results than I anticipated. They seemed to do better with the heavier published loads of the IMR4895 that I was using. I don't know how they will group at longer range, but they did well at 50 and 100 yds, which is about the limit of my ability to see open iron sights.

[Dutchman]

The military Swedish Mauser m/94 carbine, m/38 rifle, m/96 rifle have a 1:200mm twist rate. About 1:7.8".

I've shot Norma 77 gr soft point at about 3,500 fps from a m/96 and they really zing along. Not real accurate. The Sierra 87 gr HP is a bit more accurate. Fifty yards isn't really a test for J-bullets but I was testing cast bullets that day and fired some j-types at 50 yds. Four out of 5 shots into 3/8" for the Sierra 87 gr HP. This from a scoped military m/38 Carl Gustaf. With a LER scoped m/96 at 50 yds shooting Hornady 160 gr round nose 4 shots out of 5 went into 1/4". That was with IMR4831 which the Swede finds very satisfying.

For the Sierra 87 gr HP I used 41 grs H4895 with Norma cases.

http://images9.fotki.com/v120/photos/4/28344/9895637/DSCF1959p-vi.jpg

http://images60.fotki.com/v370/photos/2/28344/1676633/scan0025x-vi.jpg

[geargnasher]

Jim; While most 6.5x55 have a 1in 8 or 9 twist to stabilize 160 gr. bullets I think you can still shoot real light bullets like those 87 gr. Sierras. If I were loading them I would not try to "hot rod" the loads. I wouldn't try to push them more than about 3000 fps to 3200fps as long as you can stay with safe pressure limitations.

Too much twist (too fast) for the length of the bullet will "over stabilize" the slug and it will float down at long range like a well spiraled foot ball, and not land point first. I don't think the varmits will care a whole lot. Brodie

Have you seen this sort of odd bullet behavior yourself in the Swede with such "overspun" bullets?

Faster twists are being found more accurate by some people these days with lighter bullets. Seems the "norm" was based on some faulty but persistent theorizing. Light, .22 caliber bullets are finding best accuracy at full-speed out o 1 in 7" and faster barrels. The M96 Swedes have about a 1 in 7.8" twist if memory serves.

Look at the very last post on this thread, there's a chart showing some interesting test results of high-velocity and fast twist rifles: http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1811043/m/7891011871?r=4101086971#4101086971

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

Light, .22 caliber bullets are finding best accuracy at full-speed out o 1 in 7" and faster barrels.

I don't think that is quite correct. The faster twist barrels can give very good and/or equal accuracy at close ranges if the bullets can hold up to the RPM. Most test for such accuracy are at 10 yards with 5 sht or less groups. Test at longer ranges and with more statistically valid greater number of shots reveal quickly that the faster twist barrels do indeed "over stabilize" the short and lighter weight for caliber bullets. You will not find any competetive HP shooters using 40 - 55 gr bullets in their fast twist .223s at the 300-1000 yard lines. There is a reason for it.

Each design and weight of bullet will have it's own preference for the the twist rate it prefers best. Most all bullets can be shot reasonably well in a specific twist as long as it is at least fast enough to properly stabilize the bullets. However, shooting well is not the same as shooting best, especially if only testing at 100 yards. Note that BR shooters use the slowest possible twist for a given caliber (mostly 6mm these days) that will adequately stabilize a specific design and weight of bullet. There is a reason for that, best accuracy is the reason.

I've shot lots of Sierra 87 gr HPs out of 6.5x55s at 3400 - 3500 fps with satisfaction out to 300 yards. However, the 100 gr Sierra HP or the Hornady SP at 3000 - 3200 fps have generally replaced the 87 gr bullets. The accuracy, especially past 200 yards, is much better than with the lighter weight 87 gr bullets. I'm refering to accuracy here, not the effect of the wind.

Jim

As mentioned 4895 is an excellent powder with the 87 gr HPs. I prefered H4895. RL7 was also an excellent powder. Don't hesitate to use them as they will work fine. Varget is my preference for the 100 gr Sierra HP though should you want to try that in the future. I use 47 gr for 3240 fps out of my M38.

Larry Gibson

[Jim]

Larry, I think I might have inadvertantly set the stage for misunderstandings in this thread. I said "relative fast velocity" when maybe what I SHOULD have said was something like "fast enough to shoot varmints".

Decades ago, my mentor taught me that accuracy is much more important than speed. If you can't hit what you're aimin' at, it don't matter if the bullet's doin' Warp Factor nine.

Let me bring some criteria into this discussion that I did not in the opening post. I'm open to powder selections and suggestions, so you're not nailed down tryin' to work with "I'm using XYZ powder." The bullets, however WILL be Sierra 87 grain HPs and SPs 'cause I was given about 3 or 4 hundred of each. No sense in buyin' bullets when I got some.

As for distance, at the most, I MIGHT take a 'oh, what the heck' shot at a ground hog at 250 yds. Realistically, it will be more like 100 to 150 yds. on the outside.

So, all that blather being said, if I can get 'minute of groundhog head' accuracy at 150 yds., like my signature line, I'll be squattin' in high cotton!"

Now, if y'all think you can help this befuddled ol' man, I 'preciate it!

[PS Paul]

That's a nice-lookin' groundhog next to your rifle there in the post!

How did you cook him up?:popcorn::popcorn:

[Dutchman]

That's a nice-lookin' groundhog next to your rifle there in the post!

How did you cook him up?:popcorn::popcorn:

I had a deal with the local turkey buzzards to supply them with fresh meat. I wasn't killing them for sport. They were reeking havoc underneath my house with digging burrows and chewing my phone line. They acted like they owned the place so it was war. I couldn't kill them fast enough so I did resort to trapping eventually. Stalking woodchucks under 50 yards is very difficult as they are extremely wary critters. They are also very fast movers when they feel threatened. I went from a Winchester Model 69 .22 with scope to a Ruger 10/22 Target Model but the most fun was with the Swede m/96 using 140 gr Lyman cast bullets.

http://images18.fotki.com/v342/photos/2/28344/318494/br1-vi.jpg

http://images54.fotki.com/v555/photos/2/28344/318494/bigdaddy9-vi.jpg

[Dutchman]

I've shot lots of Sierra 87 gr HPs out of 6.5x55s at 3400 - 3500 fps with satisfaction out to 300 yards. However, the 100 gr Sierra HP or the Hornady SP at 3000 - 3200 fps have generally replaced the 87 gr bullets. The accuracy, especially past 200 yards, is much better than with the lighter weight 87 gr bullets. I'm refering to accuracy here, not the effect of the wind.


Sierra 87 gr HP in the early 70s had a thinner jacket and would disintegrate before they hit 50 yards due to rotational forces when fired at max velocities. This bullet was originally intended for under 2,700 fps in rifles like the Italian 6.5mm and 6.5 Mannlicher-Schoenauer. Sierra eventually redesigned and what we have now is far superior. In the 60s and 70s the Sierra 87 gr HP was the only light bullet that was widely available in the U.S. The Norma 77 gr SP was never widely seen back then. I have less than one box left of the 77 gr from the early 70s.

But I agree with Larry that 100 gr are mo'better in the 6.5x55. I shot mostly Winchester and Hornady 100 gr SP in the early 70s. I killed a big fat sheep fed coyote at 325 yards with my Gustaf m/38 with iron sights. What I really liked about the 100 gr SP was it was such a flat shooter. The 100 gr SP was the bullet I fired more in the Swede than any other and those from the 60s and 70s were flat base.

I bought some Hornady 6.5 bullets from a fellow who was leaving 6.5x55 behind. One box is Hornady 95 gr V-max that I have not tried yet.

Dutch

[Bullshop]

The big issue for me in such a combo was the long throat short bullet thingy. I just couldnt get them to shoot all that good but it looks like others have.
Bummer now I want my Sweed back. Actually I have a 6.5 now that I like even better.
Its on an FN single shot action with a 1/10" twist and is chambered for the 57mm case.
The 1/10" twist does a splendid job with 140gn bullets and is as heavy a bullet as I have need to shoot from it. It does equally well with boolits of about the same length.
One of the group buys we had done by Lee some time back for a Loverin type design is amazingly accurate from this rifle.
Shooting a 129gn Hornady I get right at 3000 fps from its 30" barrel. Kinda like a short case 25/06.

[gnoahhh]

I had much better luck shooting the 87 grainers out of my M70 Featherweight 6.5x55 than out of any of my Swede milsurps. The milsurps definitely liked the H-4895 best, but the F'wt doesn't seem to mind whether it's 4895 or the IMR 4831 that it really likes with 129-140 grainers. 1-9" twist in the F'wt. Basically, like Bullshop alluded to, the short bullets are on the verge of falling out of the case before I get them close enough to the leade, the F'wt isn't so bad but it has a relatively long throat also.

I often wondered how a 6.5x55 with the rifling twist and throat set up specifically for hi vel short bullets would work as a varmint rig.

[Larry Gibson]

Jim

I concur with Dutchman on the earlier 87 gr bullets being too thin for top end velocities in the fast twist 65. Swede. I had them blow up also as did the earlier Hornady 100 gr bullets when pushed above 3000 fps. I assumed the ones you had were made in the last 20 years of so, my bad. If they are older then push them slower as Dutchman mentions.

I also agree with you to use what you've got. Suggest H4895 as you can load down to 60% case capacity and work up to what shoots well with the bullets you have and your rifle. Shouldn't take a lot of work for a good load.

Larry Gibson

[KCSO]

The really light ones just don't work well for two reasons, the twist is wrong and there is way too much leade in the military rifles. A 120 is about a low as you can go and get varmit accuracy.

[chutesnreloads]

My Swede likes the 87 grain sierras quite well with Hodgdon's suggested start load of h-4350.Shot nothing but paper with them but they sure explosive in the dirt behind the target.

[PS Paul]

I have a '96 that my uncle "helped me" with by sporterizing it about 20 years ago. Sort of wish he'd not done that and just kept it as-issued..... It is, however, one of the most beautiful pieces of wood I've seen on a rifle, but...... I've been using almost exclusively 140 gr. JSP's in it.

[koger]

I have customized and built over 100 swedes in the past 25+ years of gunsmithing, alot of the mil rifles as above. These have a 1-7&1/2 inch twist. I have one I have hunted with since the early 80's, and taken a ton of deer with 120gr Sieera Sp, and varmints with 85HP. I seat the 85's with the base of the bullet, at the bottom of the neck, 43.0 grains IMR 3031, WLR primer and shoot tiny little groups all day long. With the 120 40 grains of 3031. The light bullets will shoot, but never heard of a 87 grain 6.5 Sierra, sure they are not .25 caliber? PM me if I can be of any more help. Theses loads shoot 1/2 moa 3 shot groups in my sporter swede.

[Dutchman]

Brain dead. Sierra 85 gr HP.

http://images50.fotki.com/v1559/photos/4/28344/9597910/DSCF4028s-vi.jpg

L to R:
77 gr Norma SP, Sierra 85 gr HP, 95 gr V-Max Hornady, 107 gr Sierra Match King, 120 gr Sierra Match King, 160 gr RN SP Hornady, Swedish m/94 156 gr RN.

http://images16.fotki.com/v388/photos/4/28344/9597910/DSCF4027s-vi.jpg

The most common military 6.5x55 is this m/41 sniper ammo "sharpshooter". Cartridge designation is m/94, projectile designation is m/41. Bullet weight is 139 grs.

http://images108.fotki.com/v1629/photos/4/28344/9597910/DSCF4032s-vi.jpg

Older box of m/94 cartridges.

http://images60.fotki.com/v778/photos/4/28344/9597910/DSCF4033s-vi.jpg

[1Shirt]

Just my 2 cents. Have to agree with KCSO. With jacketed the lowest I have had good accuracy with was with 140's. However, I have dedicated my two Sweds strictly to cast. Both are over 100 years old, and with cast ought to be still shooting for another 100.
1Shirt!

[Spector]

I have to agree concering the Sierra 85 grain JHP. My range is limited to 100 yards, but the little 85 grainer is the most accurate thing I have shot out of several Swedes over the years. I used to get good accuracy out of a Hornady 160 grainer as well, but not as good as the 85 JHP. I used 44.o grains of IMR 4064........Mike