357 Reloading Dies

[Jeff82]

I'm currently using Lee 357 reloading dies. They don't expand the brass very deep. As a result, it is hard to load cast bullets that aren't sized to .358 or less. For my 45-70 brass they make an aftermarket expander that opens the case up very deeply, making oversize cast bullets easy to seat. There is no such item in 0.357.

Has anyone had good luck loading cast bullets with other dies such as RCBS cowboy dies?

[LUBEDUDE]

I love the RCBS Cowboy dies. I first gave them a shot with the suposedly hard to load bottle cases such as 44-40 and 38-40. What a dream! No crushed necks yet!

Those sold me so well, I have slowly been switching as much over as my wallet will allow. I have bought 45-70 and 38-55. 38 S &W is next on the list.

Go for it!

[lastborn]

Just get the Lyman M-DIE
man Neck Expander M Die 38 Special, 357 Magnum, 357 Maximum
Product #: 174363 Lyman #: 7341801 UPC #: 011516718013

[462]

The Lee "expanding" die is a misnomer, and should be called a "flaring" die, as it is not designed to expand the case to accept a cast boolit. The Lyman M-die, as already mentioned, is the right tool for the job.

Another thing to be aware of, at least in my experience, is Lee seating dies are not boolit friendly, and can/may/will swage a fat-for-caliber boolit down to jacketed dimensions. Always load a dummy round, pull the boolit, and measure it with a micrometer. If it's smaller than when loaded, buy another brand of dies.

[Jeff82]

462,

Based on what you've said about Lee seating dies, in addition to the M-tool, would you recommend RCBS Cowboy dies for loading cast bullets? I'm loading 0.359 to 0.360 diameter cast bullets.

[Char-Gar]

I'm currently using Lee 357 reloading dies. They don't expand the brass very deep. As a result, it is hard to load cast bullets that aren't sized to .358 or less. For my 45-70 brass they make an aftermarket expander that opens the case up very deeply, making oversize cast bullets easy to seat. There is no such item in 0.357.

Has anyone had good luck loading cast bullets with other dies such as RCBS cowboy dies?

They Lyman M-Die in 38/357 has a two step expander. The first expands the case to .356 and the second step expands the top to .360 to start the bullet. My experience teaches me that bullet larger than .359 won't work well with this expander. A soft alloy will also probably be damaged shoving it into a .356 case. This die was made for jacketed bullet.

The standard RCBS expanding die in 38/357 expands the case also to .356 and puts a bell on the case mouth. You can adjust the width of the bell to receive any cast bullet diameter you wish. This die also was made for jacketed bullets.If the bell gets too large it will not enter the bullet seating die.

The RCBS Cowboy dies are made for cast bullets and might be just what you want, but I am not sure. I wish somebody would measure the size of the expanding plug and let us know.

Just how large are your cast bullets? You are asking for problems on several fronts if they go much larger than .359. I take it these are Lee TL designs and you don't want to size them. Not always the best idea.

[Jeff82]

;)Char-Gar,

My original problem is that I am experiencing leading in my 1894 Marlin 0.357 carbine. I was using Lee 158grain FN bullets re-sized to 0.358. I jumped the hardness of these up to about 14 Brinell, which helped only a little bit. Experienced shooters of this rifle recommended that I not re-size them as the Marlin shoots best with 0.359 or 0.360 diameter rounds. OK, fine. The non-resized bullets out of the mold size to about 0.359 to 0.360, and I can control this, sort of, by regulating the heat of the mold.

Then I'm thinking about this, and remembering my experiences casting and loading 45-70. And, I'm concerned about deforming the bullet during reloading. The Lee expander die only bells out the case mouth, and the seating die is really finicky about how wide of a case mouth it will accept. I had a similar problem with 45-70s and Track of the Wolf made a really nice expansion die that would opened the case up deeply and widely enough to fit an oversized bullet. Similar to the M-die.

Before I crank out my next batch of 357 cartridges, I'd like to find a way to load 0.359 to 0.360 bullets without squishing them. Hence, my question.

I don't know if cowboy action dies, which are made for cast bullets, are designed to address this, or if the M-die with help.

Such is my story!

[462]

462,

Based on what you've said about Lee seating dies, in addition to the M-tool, would you recommend RCBS Cowboy dies for loading cast bullets? I'm loading 0.359 to 0.360 diameter cast bullets.

I don't have any experience with them, but suggest you call RCBS and ask the size of that expander plug.

I prefer the case body to be expanded .002" less than boolit diameter and the same length as the boolit, and a mouth expanded (not flared) .001" over boolit diameter (others have their own criteria). To this end, I have many custom-made M-die expander plugs.

[Char-Gar]

If you are going to shoot 357 mag loads out of a rifle;

1. Use a gas check bullet
2. Use a good soft lube
3. Size .358

[blpenn66502]

For a couple of data points, my RCBS 357 cowboy expander mics at 0.3564 and the Lyman 357 M die at 0.3555

[1hole]

"I'm loading 0.359 to 0.360 diameter cast bullets. "

Why? I' ve never grasped why shooting oversize cast bullets is such a fad. The bullets WILL be bore size after they travel their own length out of the case but the bore is not as good a bullet sizer as sizing dies made for that job.

I load hard cast stuff sized to .357 for a 336/.35 as well as in .38 Spec. and .357 mag, with and without gas checks. They work great in everything IF I use a good bullet lube like the old NRA beeswax/Alox formula. I do use a Lyman M die for all of them because I happen to have one in a .357 Lyman die set but I can use Lee's flaring tool/die just about as effectively.

[LUBEDUDE]

Jeff - I have a Marlin 1894 carbine in 357 and a Cowboy as well. The following info is for comparison, not agrument sake.

My rifles have had tens of thousands of rounds through them, no exaggeration, all shot during Cowboy Action. All boolits sized .358 with a BHN of 16-18 of 92-6-2 mix with no leading at all. The dies used were Dillons, the with the addition of a Lee Factory Crimp Die. I use the FCD to cure the Marlin "hic-up".

I know many of the Gurus here swear that this die swages down the bullet, however, I swear that mine does not. I have pulled bullets and miked them. Even 359 bullets for my pistol are not swaged. Also a point about the Dillon expander plug, it works on 359 boolits fine.

FWIW

Good Luck

[dragon813gt]

I use a M die. Works fine for bullets up to .359. This is what I shoot out of my 1894C. I tried seating un-sized .360 bullets and they were swaged down. I still have the Lee expander die on the turret but it's only to drop the charge. It's set so it doensn't flare the case mouth.


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[Jeff82]

I appreciate everyones' responses and the useful information contained therein. I'm beginning to think that the answer to my leading problem may be more complicated than I thought.

Could be (in no particular order):
1-bullet sized too small.
2-dies resizing the bullet too small.
3-Lube.
4-need for gas check or wadding.

To test this out:
1- load a 0.358 bullet into a blank cartridge, remove it. Measure the bullet width.
2- shoot un-sized bullets. See if there is leading.
3- try a different lube. See if there is leading.
4- try a fiber wad or gas check. See if there is leading.

Any thoughts?

[462]

Conduct only one experiement at a time, starting with number one. I will be very surprised if the Lee seater doesn't swage down your .359" and .360" boolits.

[LUBEDUDE]

Let's start at the simple part first:

I did not catch what type of lube you use.

My only experience has been with commercial cast bullets with wax lube in the lube groove or moly coated bullets. I've never used Alox or other type.

[Jeff82]

At the moment I tumble lube with Lee Liquid Alox.

[LUBEDUDE]

I'd start there.

I have the same gun as you, fired tens of thousands of rounds sized at 358, with zero leading, using wax lube in the lube groove or moly coat.

I don't think on your particular bullet, your paricular rifle combination, that there is not either ENOugh lube lasting the lengh of the bore, or it does not have the constitution with THat particular bore.

Please read previous sentence carefully. Someone will probably think I am bashing Liquid Alox. I am not. I am just saying in THIS case, it is not working.

Try some wax lube before going to all of those other options and trouble. I bet you will may find your cure.

Good Luck

[Jeff82]

Lubedude,

I think I agree with your assessment. Last night I measured the width of my bullets. The 0.358 Lee sizer actually puts them out at 0.359. I loaded five of the cartridges using my Lee die set and then pulled the bullets. The width of all of them came out the same size as they went in. The BHN measures 14-18. I'm beginning to think this is a lube issue.

How I hate pan lubbing!

[Char-Gar]

Jeff.. I dont want to start a fire storm or massive thread drift, but I must say that my experience with Lee liquid lube has not been good. I know it is easy, but after a several attempts I went back to my old way of doing things. I suppose I could have persisted and eventualy had some sucess, but it was not worth the effort.

Even those who have persisted understand that this stuff has a narrow range of usefullness.

I have loaded for a Marlin (Ballard rifled) rifle in .357 Magnum. I have never got more than less than acceptable results with plain base bullets. It has taken a gas check bullet to get me to where I wanted to be. Acceptable to me, means accuracy on par with good factory jacketed ammo.

[462]

The width of all of them came out the same size as they went in.

Okay, I'm surprised, but odder things have happened.

I've never experienced rifle leading, but I've only ever used gas check designed boolits.

It would be helpful to know where, in the barrel, the leading occuring.

[Jeff82]

Interesting comment on Lee Alox tumble lube. I have been exclusively shooting blackpowder cartridge 45-70s and cap & ball 44-pistol prior to switching back to 357. I used liquid alox to tumble lube these rounds, but always used a wax/mineral oil wadd underneath the bullet along with case filler. No leading.

It appears that I have missed the boat when I assumed that Liquid Alox tumble lubing alone would do the job. I don't know where all the leading has come from. I do know that there have been leading deposits clearly visible near the muzzle. I suspect this may indicate that the bearing surface is stripped of lube as it travels down the barrel.

I suspect there may be a lube sizer in my future. Perhaps, gas checks or fiber wadding as well.

[LUBEDUDE]

That makes sense Jeff. I suspected that the Alox was running out of juice before making to the end of the of bore.

[462]

I do know that there have been leading deposits clearly visible near the muzzle.

Yep, either a poor lube, or not enough of it.