Handi -rifle action historical ??

[Moondawg]

Back during the period 1870 to about 1895 or so, were their any single shot, center fire, rifles with actions similar or like the present day H&R Handi Rifle? Could the Handi Rifle be considered a historic replica rifle action, or is it an entirely modern action?

[Texantothecore]

It is a modern gun but it appears to have been patterned after English sporting rifles (elephant guns, etc.) in the mid 1850s which H&R imported. If you look at their own offerings from that period they don't look like the new rifle, but work much the same.

In many competitions they are considered historical enough to compete although the NRA turns them down every year due to the large number of requests to ok them for the historical black powder classes.

Dream rifle: H&R Rolling block in .45-70 and .45-90, octagon barrel. They already have one of best the barrels made and now all they need to do is to change the lock.

[MT Chambers]

Although it's a reach, the only action I can think of that's close is the Maynard, and only because it has a hinged action.

[NickSS]

There actually were several break open breach loaders during the last half of the 19th centry. Some are Snith, Maynard, Stevens and Piper. There were more. A lot of them were in 22 RF and other small caliber RF and CF cartridges but many were in larger calibers. However, Today's H&R though similar to some of the old guns, many diferences and it is not a copy of any old design so does not qualify for some NRA competitions in BPCR events. There are many other genuine antique rifles that do not qualify either such as any of the bolt action rifles and hamerless single shot rifles of the era. For instance the Remington Keen, Mauser71, Mrtini-Henry and Sharps Borchard.

[Ecramer]

This was debated pretty heavily a few years back when the Single Action Shooting Society debuted its long range competition. A lot of purists (myself included) thought the H&R was too modern.

Its supporters said that the patents for its locking mechanism actually date to the "two trigger" rifles built by Frank Wesson, with the front trigger replaced by the H&R push button.

[uscra112]

The H&R is a highly developed 1890s shotgun action for all intents and purposes. There were quite a few such shotguns in the pre-1900 era. I have accumulated a few of them, out of morbid curiosity. None are safe with modern ammunition.

As far as I know the Maynard was the only pre-1900 American break-open action designed to be a rifle for large centerfire cartridges, but its' method of resolving the thrust at the breech was entirely different, and it has an underlever working a toggle to lock itself closed, not a top or side lever working a bolt. The Maynard actually is pre-Civil War, BTW. I wish someone would bring it back at a price that I could afford. It was a switch-barrel gun par excellence, and the 1873 and later models were very highly regarded in 1000 yard and "mid-range" (40 rods) competition.

Another example of the shotgun-to-rifle evolution is the Savage 219, which could be had with a 12 gauge barrel, a .30-30 barrel, a .22 Hornet barrel, or all three if you had the money. But it didn't appear until 1938. Nice gun. Better fit and finish than the Handi, but since they're long out of production, there's no new barrels for them, nor are many gunsmiths even familiar with them.

[Skipper]

Here's a Frank Wesson (Wesson & Harrington) hinged breech rifle from a little earlier than you're asking about:

http://www.mainecav.org/artifacts/myrick09.jpg

Frank Wesson military carbine:

http://www.nadeausauction.com/auctiondata/1066/images/19_4.JPG

[uscra112]

Yep, forgot that one. And the Stevens Tip-up.

[hickstick_10]

You forgot about the wurfflein as well

http://i.pbase.com/g6/50/494150/2/84549438.EgqiJW2J.jpg
http://www.ugca.org/ugca0101/dwurf.jpg

Look at the breach latch........its VERY close to an H&R. Bout as close as the "new" stevens or "new" Highwall.

Part of the reason the H&R isn't considered historical is some of the "landed gentry" who have 5 grand rolled up in a single shot dont want to be within smell range of a peasant with a buffalo classic when shooting sillouette.

[Don McDowell]

Part of the reason the H&R isn't considered historical is some of the "landed gentry" who have 5 grand rolled up in a single shot dont want to be within smell range of a peasant with a buffalo classic when shooting sillouette.

That's absolutely flat wrong misinformation.
The H&R wasn't even being manufactured when the NRA came up with the list of acceptable rifles for the bpcr contests. Never mind it doesn't even come close to the design it is claimed to be a descendant of.
If those of you who feel so strongly that your H&R's can successfully compete in NRA sanctioned matches, I would suggest you start the process with the rules committee to get it allowed into competition.
Actually you can compete with it now, your scores won't count for any NRA classifications, or national records or be allowed to win any national contests, but the option is open for local matches.

Here's the rule out of the NRA regulations regarding the rifles for sillouette
Rifles:

3.4 Black Powder Cartridge Rifle - A hunting or military style rifle, single shot, originally made for black powder cartridges, of United States manufacture prior to 1896 and being typical of the era. Replicas thereof, regardless of origin of manufacture, are permitted. Hammer must be exposed. If replacement barrels, stocks, or other parts are used, they must be as original. No Schuetzen-style rifles permitted. One rifle will be used during all phases of the match. Examples of permissible rifles are: Ballard, Buck, Bullard, Cole, Farrow, Maynard, Peabody, Redfield, Remington Hepburn, Remington Rolling Block, Sharps, Springfield Trapdoor, Stevens Tip-up, Stevens No. 44, Wesson Falling Block, Wesson (hinged barrel), Whitney Phoenix, Whitney Rolling Block, Winchester 1885, and Wurfflein. While the following single shot actions may not conform to the exact criteria of Rule 3.4, they are allowed because they conform to the spirit of the competition in forth and function, provided the firearms conform to all other configurations of Rule 3.4: Browning Model 1878, Browning Model 1885, C. Sharps '75, Falling Block Works, Stevens 44 1/2 and Wickliff '76. Replicas other than exact reproductions of pre-1896 Black Powder actions as described above and shooting equipment as described herein, must be passed by the Silhouette Committee with the advice of the Black Powder Committee. It shall be the competitor's responsibility to provide any documentation which may be required to establish that all Black Powder Cartridge Rifle equipment conforms to these rules.

[Shooter]

They are afraid they will be out shot by an inexpensive rifle.

[Don McDowell]

Really Shooter? then why has there never been a Handirifle shooter come in even in the top ten at any of the "buffalo" matches like the Quigley, or Midwest Championship, or Medicine Rocks,.......
When they made the list the handi rifle wasn't even in production, and H&R was and wasn't even in business...
Those that are so sure of the rifles ability are free and open to petition the NRA to allow them for classification. Just have your historical documentation prepared and in the letter to the rules committee.
I for one hope you guys can pull it off. It would be a good way to expose more folks to the bpcr sports.And I know several other folks that feel the same way, but it's up to the handi shooters to get the job done.

[waksupi]

They are afraid they will be out shot by an inexpensive rifle.

Yeah, let me know when you manage that.

[Shooter]

My point is the rules are inconsistant.
I can shoot a 1885 Winchester copy made in Japan, that has no internal springs like the original.
I can't shoot an original Sharps Borchardt.
It seems the rules folks wanted to keep someone out. I think his name was Ruger.

[waksupi]

What puzzles me is why people will have something that is borderline related to a shooting discipline, and want to have it accepted to suit them? Why not start a new discipline,that is specifically for that type firearm? That is how new sports are formed, and you can make your own rules.

[Don McDowell]

I don't think it had as much to do with keeping Ruger out as it did keeping the Martini's and other well known over sea's target guns out.
Remember this bpcr thing was more or less an offshoot of a bunch of buckskinners(you know the guys that wore buckskins fired real blackpowder in authentic Hawken and Lehman rifles) that dug out granpaps ol trapdoor and rollers, and said lets go have some fun.
Still to this day the rules are exactly as I copied and pasted them, and if the Handirifle shooters can ever get some help from H&R to document the direct lineage of the current rifle to the 1873 model as claimed in the advertisement , all they need do is make the presentation to the bpcr rules committee...
Or do as Waksupi suggested and start something of their own, so that things don't get polluted like the NMLRA did with the allowance of inlines and fake powder......
And there are dozens of "buffalo" matches around the country that have no problem with the Handi rifle shooters laying their money down to enter...

[Don McDowell]

Plus if the Handi shooters really want to drive home their point about how much better those rifles shoot , I can see not one thing that precludes one of those rifles in the bptr matches..... Now there's where you go to really drive home how accurate the rifle is.

[Chill Wills]

My point is the rules are inconsistant.
I can shoot a 1885 Winchester copy made in Japan, that has no internal springs like the original. I can't shoot an original Sharps Borchardt.
It seems the rules folks wanted to keep someone out. I think his name was Ruger.

Mike, You should do a little more investigation. The rifles you mention are allowed. Both the Sharps Borchardt and the Ruger #1 and #3 are shot at the NRA Midrange prone, Midrange position and the NRA Creedmoor national matches. Dave Gullo and others shoot the Sharps Borchardt.

The rules are different for BPCR silhouette. Most BPCR matches held in America are NOT NRA approved silhouette matches so this should not slow any one down. However in approved NRA silhouette Only American origin rifles with exposed hammers are allowed. I have been running NRA silhouette matches for a dozen + years and have had a number of riflemen come to our monthly match and compete with the handy rifle. There are welcome. But one of two things happen. We never see them again or they find out there are better rifles to compete with and upgrade.

The handy rifles are fine to own and shoot and to have fun with. They work fine and fill their intended niche. I for one would love to see many more owners come to the silhouette matches with their handy rifles. I promote shooting and having fun. Go for it.

BTW, it would fun to see a contest where a few determined H&R HR owners went head to head with the "approved" Sharps, Winchester, Rem roller, Hepburn, Ballard and the like.

Michael Rix

[Shooter]

I was suggesting the Buffalo Classic rather than the Handi-rifle.
My point is; is a single shot rifle that exsisted in the day, it should not be banned.

[Chill Wills]

I was suggesting the Buffalo Classic rather than the Handi-rifle.

Your right. I kinda lump them all together but know what you are saying. I am no expert but I do not think anything existed like the Buffalo classic action.

Your and others Points taken on the Jap Highwall and the Stevens. Age old debate.

The NRA is very open to change. They have a well defined system of committee review but so far no one has put in the leg work and delivered the paper work.

Bottom line for 99+++% of us that shoot the game is to actually go and have fun.

[Don McDowell]

I was suggesting the Buffalo Classic rather than the Handi-rifle.
My point is; is a single shot rifle that exsisted in the day, it should not be banned.

Buffalo Classic is a handirifle fitted with a longer barrel and lyman receiver site. Have 2 handi's and am a former owner of a BC.
It's been said many times on many boards by many people, if those that want the handi and it's variants allowed in the NRA sillouette game would just get their stuff in order and go to the rules committee, it would be a grand thing for the sillouette game.
As Mr. Rix said the vast majority of folks that shoot the matches are there to enjoy themselves , and I'll throw in I've yet to see a match anywhere that the regulars didn't bend over backwards to make a newby feel welcome.

[Jeffrey]

Handi Rifles in .35 cal and over are legal for primitive weapon season in Mississippi, .38 cal and over are legal in Louisiana. I got a 444 Marlin and love it.

[Marlin Junky]

Handi Rifles in .35 cal and over are legal for primitive weapon season in Mississippi, .38 cal and over are legal in Louisiana. I got a 444 Marlin and love it.

Have you measured the bore and groove diameters on your 444?

MJ

[JIMinPHX]

I believe that there are quite a few older German drillings & double guns floating around that have a break action with at least one of the barrels being a center fire rifle cartridge. I've also seen an old Italian side by side with one shotgun barrel & one center fire rifle barrel. That one was very strange because the outside dimensions of both barrels were the same. The gun was very heavy.

[Ecramer]

I passed on buying a Holland and Holland rook rifle once because it had a break-open action. I realize this is nothing short of silly, but I just associate that hinge in the middle with the cheap hardware store guns of my youth. I really need to get over that, I suppose.