Proposed BP short load, Round Ball in .45-70

[Texantothecore]

I am going plinking this next weekend and don't want to sacrifice 405 grains on each shot so I decided to cast about 200 round balls for the outing. My question is does the proposed load make sense?

.45-70
Round ball

10 grains Goex FFg
15 grains?

Folded wax paper over the Goex to keep it from mixing with the filler
filler: Cream of Rice to basically short of the top of case
Round ball Factory crimped.

Comments please?

Bear with me please as this is the first time I have done these small loads.

[w30wcf]

The original rb 45-70 load used only 5 grs of 3F b.p. and no filler.
Velocity runs 500 f.p.s. so it is no pop gun.

I ran some replications of these through a friends springfield and accuracy was surprisingly good at 50 yards - 2" groups.

Tilting the muzzle up momentarily to keep the powder to the back of the case made hings more consistant. Later I used a .004" thick paper disc punched with a .45 punch to hold the powder to the back.

I seated the ball about even with the case mouth then put a little b.p. lube around the inside of the case mouth which worked very well.

Have fun,
w30wcf

[Texantothecore]

I have noticed that the older shooting writers didn't seem to use filler for the short loads. So I may go ahead and try it.

Would 10 grains be a good start for 100 yards?


I also saw a thread in which the Us Army "Armory load" for the .45-70 was 20 grns of BP loaded loose topped with a 250 bullet. So I do think the load without filler would work out just fine.

[montana_charlie]

Push the round ball down inside the case so it rests on the powder.

CM

[Freightman]

I have put 15/20 gr and pushed two an three RB in it is a fun load

[NickSS]

I shoot RB all the time in my 45-70s in my back yard range (50 yards). I use both smokeless and black powder loads but usually BP and 10 gr of FFFG. My balls are 457 RB cast from a Lyman mold I have. I lube the balls with LLA and push them down all the way into the case. Cases are fired and unsized. I generally have 20 rounds loaded and they shoot very accurately out to 50 yards in several of my rifles. I clean the bore after every 20 rounds with no leading ever noticed. The interesting thing is that at 50 yards this load shoot to POA with my 100 yard full power sight setting.

[Nobade]

It sounds like loading these like a revolver - with a lubed felt wad between the powder and ball and seating the ball so everything is tight together would be a good way to go. Anybody try that?

[montana_charlie]

It sounds like loading these like a revolver - with a lubed felt wad between the powder and ball ...
I thought the lubed wad was placed OVER the bullet to seal the mouth of the chamber.

CM

[Nobade]

Naah - under so it lubes the bore, prevents crossfires and doesn't fall out.

[bigted]

ive done a patched ball load...[read like a muzzleloader]...with 20 grains 2 f goex. this is a very fun load and is listed in a posting here from a bit back. i rammed the patched round ball down on the powder and everything worked very well....if memory serves then the ball diameter was .440 inch and the patch was a .020 inch lubbed round patch. the patch is cloth muzzleloader patch's and the case mouth was belled slightly to keep the patch from getting messed up. found the patch's around 20 feet in front of the muzzle and they were intact and looked for all the world like they had been shot out of a muzzleloader.

[chill45100]

More of a question here. Doesn't having the ball seated away from the powder created a potenital for chamber ringing? Or is that just for high pressure smokeless loads? The idea of an RB in my .45-70 or .45-100 sounds great!
Chill45100

[gunseller]

This talk of air space between the ball and powder scares me. When this happens the ball becomes a barrel obstruction. Granted the charge is light but an obstrution is an obstruction. Pushing the ball down onto the powder is the way to go. Or putting a card tube into the case as was done for the 55 grain carbine loads. On a C&B revolver the lube wad goes under the ball as the ball fits tight to seal the chamber with nothing over the top.
Steve

[I'll Make Mine]

On a C&B revolver the lube wad goes under the ball as the ball fits tight to seal the chamber with nothing over the top.
Steve

Or, if you're a traditionalist, the ball goes down hard over the powder (or powder and filler) and the lube directly on top. Either way, the entire load is in contact at firing.

In a cartridge, I don't know that this is a problem, usually the powder will be lying along the cartridge wall unless the loader put a card wad over it, then seated the ball or bullet at the case mouth. Still, I'd surely rather see wads or filler to allow a compressed load, even with reduced powder, than a bunch of air space, if there's a case where you need to seat the ball/boolit at the case mouth (for instance, to feed in a lever action). For single shots, seating a round ball down onto the small powder load is a very old practice that works well -- just not applicable to a lever gun.

[gunseller]

What I ststed is the traditionalist way of loading. What you stated is the novice approach. The only hard fast rule when loading BP, in pistols, ML rifles and shotguns or cartrage guns, is no air space.
Steve

[725]

8 to 9 gr Unique. Push the .457 RB into the case with at least half sticking out. Push flush if you want, and let 'er rip. very much fun

[I'll Make Mine]

What I ststed is the traditionalist way of loading. What you stated is the novice approach.

Didn't know they had lube wads in the 1850s -- learn something every day, I guess.

[Texantothecore]

Range Report:

Shot a number of balls with ten grns FFg. It was accurate and a blast. Several of the other shooters came over to try it and couldn't get over a .45-70 load with no recoil. I then upped the charge to 15 grains and it was even more fun. It was an absolute blast.

I had some stuck balls and I was sure to check the barrel (I can look through mine without any problem) and I will be cleaning the barrel between shots using Choreboy. Hopefully it will get out most of the residue.

One guy thought he had a misfire it was so quiet. It sounded about like a pellet gun.

I highly recommend it. Loads of fun on a Saturday morning.

The guys policed their brass and dropped the empty cases of all their calibers into my bag. At some point it will be off to the scrap yard.

[StrawHat]

...The only hard fast rule when loading BP, in pistols, ML rifles and shotguns or cartrage guns, is no air space.
Steve...

And yet the Old Dead Guys, from whom we have learned much and forgotten more, would breech seat a boolit into the leade and then load a charged case behind it. They got some pretty spectacular accuracy from that method.

[gunseller]

StrawHat The guys I have known that were doing that had their cases go over the base of the bullet and the wad over the powder just touch the base of the bullet. Others might have done it differently. What I was always told and even inline ML manufactures will say the bullet must contact the powder. If it does not it can act like a barrel obstruction. Do not want to step on anyone's toes. I just do not want to see anyone hurt or damaged firearms.
Steve

[Kermit1945]

A friend and I used to shoot his gallery loads in our .45-70s. We shot both .457 roundball and the old Lyman "collarbutton"--mostly the latter because it has a lube groove and shoots clean(er) without messing with the lube at the case mouth.

For those not familiar with it, the "collarbutton" was developed as a conical that had equivalent weight to a roundball. To the best of my knowledge, they were loaded at the case mouth, and not down on the powder. That's what we did. Our favorite was the collarbutton over 5 grains of Unique. We used no filler, and pointed the muzzle up before firing to put the powder at the back of the case.

BTW, we were shooting these in his Trapdoor and my Ruger #3. Never tried these things in leverguns. If I did, I'd load one at a time, and not use the magazine.

With gallery loads, ALWAYS check the bore for an "obstruction" before the next round gets loaded. ALWAYS!!!!!

Here's NEI's collar button mold design. Very similar to the old Lyman. go to "Choose a Bullet" and .458. It's the first one, 458-150-PB.

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html

[Texantothecore]

A friend and I used to shoot his gallery loads in our .45-70s. We shot both .457 roundball and the old Lyman "collarbutton"--mostly the latter because it has a lube groove and shoots clean(er) without messing with the lube at the case mouth.

For those not familiar with it, the "collarbutton" was developed as a conical that had equivalent weight to a roundball. To the best of my knowledge, they were loaded at the case mouth, and not down on the powder. That's what we did. Our favorite was the collarbutton over 5 grains of Unique. We used no filler, and pointed the muzzle up before firing to put the powder at the back of the case.

BTW, we were shooting these in his Trapdoor and my Ruger #3. Never tried these things in leverguns. If I did, I'd load one at a time, and not use the magazine.

With gallery loads, ALWAYS check the bore for an "obstruction" before the next round gets loaded. ALWAYS!!!!!

Boy, you do have to check the barrel for obstructions every shot. I had 3 stuck balls and I think they stuck because of burnt powder buildup so I just got back from the hardware store and a gun shop with some equipment for the field that should knock out any burnt powder on the first pass using bronze wool and one of three pieces of equipment:

1. .45 jag with a bit of bronze wool
2. Bore mop wrapped in bronze wool
3. 20 gauge slotted fitting wrapped in coarse bronze wool.

Historically one of the most favored cleaning substances was oakum, the strands of oak taken from the inside of the bark of a dead oak tree. It could also be used to start a fire or seal the spaces between planks in a wooden boat. Very handy stuff to have around.

Will do some tests and post the results here. This is too much fun.....

That conical is still available from Western bullets and several of the mold makers still make the mold. I will be getting one after my Postell mold from Lyman.

[Texantothecore]

One of the tests I want to do is to use:

10 grains of ffg
Wad ( coke case)
Cream of Rice to just below the top of the case
144 grain round ball

I have read that the filler will scrub down the the barrel of the burnt black powder from the last shot and it should leave the barrel much cleaner.

Any comments?

[bigted]

be interesting to try your 10 grains with the filler compressed to accept a lube cookie under your roundball. that would...[in theory]...keep the fouling soft and allow the ability to shoot many shots without having to scrub the bore. also maybe just up the powder charge so there is less chance for a stuck ball.

[Texantothecore]

A lube cookie would be a great idea. I have some NRA 50/50 and will melt some of it down and cut some lube cookies with a case I have been saving for it. I screwed up the flash hole when I went to a heavier hammer using the Lee Classic Loader.

Three of the guys who shot the rifle wanted to know where I got it and they may get themselves their first Buffalo rifle. These gallery loads may be a great sales device for the big calibers and shooting in general.


Modified test:

10 grains ffg
Coke case wad
Cream of Rice to near the top
Lube cookie

[Kermit1945]

These folks sell the Lyman #457130 collarbutton all cast and ready.

http://westernbullet.com/45riflecaliber.html

You guys are sure making .45-70 plinking loads complicated. I'm waiting for someone to say the only lube that works is a 3-2-1 mix of virgin beeswax from Arizona Africanized bees, anhydrous lanolin from Icelandic sheep winter shorn under a blue moon, and fossilized Mastodon mucus, and using a filler of the undercoat of the now extinct Amber Argentine unicorn.

I can't imagine the old U.S.Army wasting much money on overly complicated roundball practice rounds. But knowing how the Congress/Pentagon can contract for supplies, I could be wrong.

For swabbing I use flannel patches and tap water.

[Texantothecore]

These folks sell the Lyman #457130 collarbutton all cast and ready.

http://westernbullet.com/45riflecaliber.html

You guys are sure making .45-70 plinking loads complicated. I'm waiting for someone to say the only lube that works is a 3-2-1 mix of virgin beeswax from Arizona Africanized bees, anhydrous lanolin from Icelandic sheep winter shorn under a blue moon, and fossilized Mastodon mucus, and using a filler of the undercoat of the now extinct Amber Argentine unicorn.

I can't imagine the old U.S.Army wasting much money on overly complicated roundball practice rounds. But knowing how the Congress/Pentagon can contract for supplies, I could be wrong.

For swabbing I use flannel patches and tap water.

I am bothered by the fact that it would seem the Ordnance Department would be fielding dangerous rounds. The people in the Ordnance Department (it is called something else now) were the best of the best. They still are for that matter.

I am going to try some filler but it is primarily to scrub the bore of some of the residue of the last shot. The short rounds seem to really dirty the bore and I would like to take a shot at eliminating at least some of it.

Has anyone tried white rice as a filler?

[bigted]

These folks sell the Lyman #457130 collarbutton all cast and ready.

http://westernbullet.com/45riflecaliber.html

You guys are sure making .45-70 plinking loads complicated. I'm waiting for someone to say the only lube that works is a 3-2-1 mix of virgin beeswax from Arizona Africanized bees, anhydrous lanolin from Icelandic sheep winter shorn under a blue moon, and fossilized Mastodon mucus, and using a filler of the undercoat of the now extinct Amber Argentine unicorn.

I can't imagine the old U.S.Army wasting much money on overly complicated roundball practice rounds. But knowing how the Congress/Pentagon can contract for supplies, I could be wrong.

For swabbing I use flannel patches and tap water.


i hear some cluckin here but see no suggestions to...[UN-COMPLICATE]...the short lite loads. exactly what is it you suggest sir?

and welcome to the forum...on condition that the mastadon mucus and undercoat of the amber argentine unicorn are tucked tightly under your left armpit so as to be blessed with wisdom and graciousness from this point forward!

[Texantothecore]

I wonder whether Rice Krispies would work? Has anyone tried it?

[montana_charlie]

I wonder whether Rice Krispies would work? Has anyone tried it?
I what capacity?
Is the purpose you are thinking of found in the options below?

A.) Absorb spilled motor oil.
B.) As a filler in a cartridges loaded with smokeless propellant.
C.) To flux a pot of bullet alloy.
D.) Filler for cartridges loaded with black powder.

CM

[Texantothecore]

Filler for black powder cartridges lightly loaded. 45-70 with 10 grns ffg topped with a grease cookie and round ball. In a buffalo classic with a 32" barrel.

[montana_charlie]

Filler for black powder cartridges lightly loaded.
They use various 'fluffy' materials (which are mostly just air) as fillers in smokeless cartridges. The primary function is to hold the powder charge near the primer.
Within reason, airspace in smokeless cartridges is a common thing.

The fillers I have seen recommended for black powder cartridges have always been cream of wheat, cornmeal, farina, and other essentially solid substances that settle down to fill the case.

Isn't Rice Crispies mostly made up of air?
Would using 'crispy air' violate the black powder 'no airspace' rule of thumb?

CM

[bigted]

I what capacity?
Is the purpose you are thinking of found in the options below?

A.) Absorb spilled motor oil.
B.) As a filler in a cartridges loaded with smokeless propellant.
C.) To flux a pot of bullet alloy.
D.) Filler for cartridges loaded with black powder.

CM

THERE IS AN "E" AS WELL!

E- to eat?

:kidding:.......;-).......:D