Shot my Hawken rifle for the first time tonight, ran into an issues.

[colonelhogan44]

I finally got out and put some lead downrange with my newly acquired and restored Hawken rifle. Everything seemed to function correctly, except that it was shooting extremely low. I adjusted the rear sight all the way up to the point of it almost falling off (and looking gay), and it's still about 10" low at 100.

After getting frustrated, I looked at the sight, and realized it had a little of play vertically, and a ton horizontally, which would explain the inconsistency left to right.

Bottom line: The rifle has a *** rear sight. Are there any replacements that you guys know of/recommend?

I was shooting a Lee REAL 320 gr Conical with 90 grains of American Pioneer ffg, by the way.

[HARRYMPOPE]

what make of Hawken? An Investarms-Cabelas i had had the same sight issue.The Lyman Plains rifle sight is also rather weak design.Many TC's have rather wobbly rear sights as well. Bring the sight down a bit below half way and grind down the ft. sight till you get on at 100 and all will be good.

George

[colonelhogan44]

It's an Investarms from '76. The front sight is a beautiful long thing with a bead on top...maybe a shorter, simpler sight is in order. Although I don't like the wobble left/right at all. Very shoddy.

[Westmann]

I was having some rear-sight issues on my TC Hawken that I also shot for the first time today. I'd love to hear general recommendations too. It was, incidentally, also my first black powder experience after decades of wanting nothing more than a muzzleloader since I first drooled over the rifles in a Cabelas magazine. It's been an enjoyable and meandering path through practically the entire vast world of metallic cartridges, but I feel like I've finally come home!

[HARRYMPOPE]

I agree those sights are ****.I just whittled mine down to look good and went with it.


George

[mack1]

I would try a diffrent powder before any sight replacement or at least chrony my loads. I have tried American Pioneer and am not impressed. Real Black has no rivel in sidelocks.

[Lonegun1894]

I know this may sound bad at first, but I would recommend swapping out the factory adjustable sights with traditional fixed sights. Here is what I do with my MLs: I replace the rear adjustable with a traditional fixed sight of the style and height that matches the rifle I am working on, but usually end up with either a type of buckhorn-type sight, or a simple rear blade with a notch cut in it for a rear sight. As to the front, I like a german silver blade because it shows up well in the field when hunting, and buy one that is taller than I actually need. I first adjust the windage by drifting the rear/front sights til the shots land on the centerline of my target, and then slowly file the front sight shorter, as shortening the front raises point of impact. Now this is something that you will have to go slow with as it is easy to take off too much and shoot too high if you're not careful, but the end result is very well worth it. And as to some people being concerned about having adjustable sights, personally, I dont care. My .50 and .54 deer hunting rifles are sighted in, STAY sighted in, and shoot flat enough for a center hold out to 125yds, even though I usually dont need to shoot further than about half that. I figure this way, I dont have to worry about weather my sights wobble, because i KNOW they dont, and provided that no one has taken a hammer and files to my rifles, which hasn't and wont happen, my rifles always shoot to the same point of aim regardless how many miles they have traveled in my hand or in my truck, so I see the fixed sights as an advantage instead of a disadvantage.

[Moondawg]

I have had two imitation Hawkin rifles, a TC, and a Lyman Plains rifle. Both of them came witha front sight that was way to high, and needed considerable filing down. Don't know why the factory puts such tall front sights on these rifles.

[Dean D.]

+1 Lonegun1894, I do pretty much the same as you. I tossed the factory adjustable sight that came with my Lyman GPR first thing. Pure junk.

ColonelHogan, just about any muzzleloader builder supply like Track of the Wolf sells replacement sights. I've had good luck with ToW on most things.

[colonelhogan44]

Unfortunately, the back sight on my rifle is not dovetailed...it's attached by two (really stuck and stripped out by the PO) standard screws.

If it was dovetailed, I'd have endless options.

[docone31]

I swapped mine out for this sight.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/879/1/RS-HA
Making a dovetail is simple. The buckhorn acts as a peep sight.
I have the Cabelas Hawken. Replaced the front sight also.

[Lonegun1894]

If its the same hole spacing as TC uses on their Hawken, then this sight http://www.thegunworks.com/custprodgun.cfm?ProductID=906&do=detail&Cat2Option=yes is what I used to replace the adjustable trash that my TC came with. It has been working fine ever since I got it about a year and a half ago. Unfortunately, it is also the only one I have found so far that would fit, so I got lucky in that I like the style of it, but know not everyone will agree. As to the front sight, I would replace it with something that doesn't have a bead so you can file it down to where ever you need it to make the gun shoot to the sights. Like I said, I like the german silver front blades, but that is just my preference. Anyway, I hope the link above works, and hopefully it will give you an option. Best of luck.

[colonelhogan44]

Lonegun:

The link above took me to the home page of The Gun Works. What's the name of the sight so I can find it?

[Lonegun1894]

Took me directly to the sight I was trying to show you. Sorry. Anyway, from their home page, go to Custom Gun Building Parts, then to Sights, then to Rear Sights, and it will be #16 from the top, priced at $30. They call it their "rear sight--full buckhorn, drilled and countersunk to fit TC rifles, in the white". I hope that helps and didn't cause more confusion than it's worth. Dovetailed sights tend to be cheaper, but depending on if you can cut the dovetail yourself or have to pay to have it done, this may be a cheaper option.

[colonelhogan44]

I found it, thanks.

I found this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W60yBwzipKA) that shows how to cut it by hand. That doesn't look bad at all. I was assuming I'd need a milling machine to cut one.

[colonelhogan44]

I would try a diffrent powder before any sight replacement or at least chrony my loads. I have tried American Pioneer and am not impressed. Real Black has no rivel in sidelocks.

I've heard the same thing -- it's not very accurate, has 100fps swings, etc. The pound of AP came with the rifle, so I'm going to shoot it. I can't imagine the powder causing the rifle to shoot several feet low.

It's SO easy to clean up afterwards, too. Almost easier than smokeless!

[Lonegun1894]

You sound like me when I first got hooked. Welcome to this addiction, um, i mean, uh, hobby, yeah, it's a hobby.

[colonelhogan44]

I found an extra plane blade steel front sight that came off a levergun in my box of goodies. It can easily be filed, so that's where I'm going to start.

The stock sight is .465 inches from the bottom of the dovetail, while this one is is .438, with a slanted top. It's a start anyway.

[Lonegun1894]

That should raise your point of impact, but I cant remember the formula for how much that will raise it at what range, so can't help there.

[colonelhogan44]

Well, we'll see. I guess I have to have another shooting session soon. I like how easily this stuff cleans up...Pyrodex is a PITA, and it made me never want to shoot my cap and ball revolver.

[Shooter]

The rifle was probably sighted for ball.

[mooman76]

I have had two imitation Hawkin rifles, a TC, and a Lyman Plains rifle. Both of them came witha front sight that was way to high, and needed considerable filing down. Don't know why the factory puts such tall front sights on these rifles.

They make it tall on purpose so you can file it to the proper height for you. Everyone looks through sites differently. If they make them too short it's hard to add metal.

[HARRYMPOPE]

I would try a diffrent powder before any sight replacement or at least chrony my loads. I have tried American Pioneer and am not impressed. Real Black has no rivel in sidelocks.

Triple Seven Shoots as well or better than Goex in my 50 Lyman plains rifle.

George

[OverMax]

Shooter: Your spot on and I totally agree. I too believe many of these traditional rifles were designed with patched rd ball in mind.

Keeping on point here.
colonelhogan44./ There are a couple things you can do prior to drastic changes being done to your rifle.

1st. Consider shooting patched RD Ball. Many of us do.

2nd. Consider dropping the grain weight on that Lee Real Bullet down to 250 grain and drop your powder charge some also. Do a work up to see just how your rifle behaves from its bottom end to its heaviest charge capabilities with the aid of published articles. Concerning the powder you intend to use.

3rd. Consider an aftermarket Peep Site {and I strongly suggest having it mounted by a professional gun smith.} Lyman or Williams. Either of those peeps would give you the elevation your looking for to shoot that heavy 320gr. maxi-ball. Good luck with your rifle Sir.

[colonelhogan44]

Overmax, In my experience, heavier bullets hit higher on a given target (at close range) than lighter ones.

If I sight my 8mm in at 100 yards using a 150 grain bullet, and then shoot a 200 grain bullet, it prints several inches high. Unless muzzleloaders play by different rules than I have observed (or the bullet is travelling slow enough that it drops off significantly compared to a PRB, which I doubt), a heavier bullet should bring me closer to on target if I'm shooting low.

I did shoot PRB as well, and it didn't hit the target either. It bounced off the dirt too.

Seeing how this rifle was 60 bucks, and peep sights are more than that, I'll consider all free/really cheap options first. :redneck:

[OverMax]

In my experience, heavier bullets hit higher on a given target (at close range) than lighter ones. There you go Sir (bullet arch) I'm sure you know about (trajectory.) Increasing or decreasing powder charges changes it all the time. Your rifle has a different sweet spot for each bullet weight that was suggested for use by its manufacture. But there may be a trade off too you'll run into. What may shoot well at 50 yards may not do as well at 100 or vice versa.You just have to experiment and take notes & write it down what you find out. Have you've ever noticed those fellows that shoot much heavier bullets than the norm out to greater distances. What's the first thing you see that's different about their rifles colonelhogan44? (besides their quick/twist barrel) >Yes Sir its (a vernier or peep installed, or perhaps a scope) Reason: because not enough windage and elevation could be gotten from their original equipment iron sight. So there changed out with a sight that will give them the additional setting required. Like I said a traditional rifle is not an inline. Your 1-48 twist (I believe you have?) was meant to be a reasonable medium for most anything your could force down between its lands & grooves. But where your barrel might stand out, as does mine, and is over looked by many owners as a messy inconvenience. Is its preference to shoot patched RD ball. I don't have a scanner here. But maybe someone else could PM you part of a T/Cs traditional rifles owner manual. As it has a pretty good listing in regards to Optimum Accuracy & Performance tables. Which contains enough information to get you started in the right direction. I would suggest you try different powder charges before changing any hardware on that barrel. But again its just another opinion from a stranger. Good luck with your rifle,

[colonelhogan44]

Overmax: Thanks. I already got the front sight changed out, as I didn't like the old one much anyway. It was huge with a bead on the top. We'll see what happens.

My ultimate goal is to get a great hunting load worked up, so I want to shoot some type of conical. I'm hoping to go to grad school in Oregon, and then participate in their Elk muzzleloading season. They allow only lead conical or PRB, and PRB seems borderline.

I do have some PRBs for just plinking around, though.

[OverMax]

Okey-dokey let us know how things turn out.

[DODGEM250]

I finally got out and put some lead downrange with my newly acquired and restored Hawken rifle. Everything seemed to function correctly, except that it was shooting extremely low. I adjusted the rear sight all the way up to the point of it almost falling off (and looking gay), and it's still about 10" low at 100.

After getting frustrated, I looked at the sight, and realized it had a little of play vertically, and a ton horizontally, which would explain the inconsistency left to right.

Bottom line: The rifle has a *** rear sight. Are there any replacements that you guys know of/recommend?

I was shooting a Lee REAL 320 gr Conical with 90 grains of American Pioneer ffg, by the way.

I say get rid of the REAL bullets and try a sabot load in something of 240-295gw at 90 grains. I feel as though your "motor is not big enough for the car". The same theory applies for the guys who try to ram a 240 grain bullet down range with 150 gr of powder. They basically have "too much motor for the car" and their groups are very sloppy. Try it, let us know what happens.

[colonelhogan44]

I'm going to get on paper at 50 yards with PRB, then try the REALs again. I like the heavy slugs, and I hope they'll work out.

[Hiwall55]

I will second the advice to cut a dovetail for the rear sight, not only more sight options but if you find the right load and regulate the sights to it ,it will stay there forever, my .62 cal. renegade that I built has shot with no sight adjustment for years. I bought a 3/8 dovetail endmill 10 years ago and it has paid for itself many times over.

[Flinchrock]

Check out the "NO EXCUSES" bullets.

Makes ya want to melt down these Reals...

[colonelhogan44]

I doubt a 460 grain bullet would stabilize in a 1-48 twist. They look neat, though!

[Gray Fox]

I have had very good luck with the standard TC Maxi-Ball in both my .50 and .54 rifles with 1:48 twist, cast of pure lead and pan lubed in the old firm Bore Butter. My brother has also had great success using the same load in his .50 Traditions in-line with a 1:28 twist. 75 grains of 2f in the .50 and 85 in the .54 give all the power you would need under 100 yards, but of course your rifle and the way you shoot it may be entirely different. If you stay with an adjustable sight I'd suggest you work up whatever load works for you then use clear nail polish to secure the adjustment screws after degreasing the area. I'm finally going to finish a TC Hwken .50 flinter kit this fall/winter and I'm going to use one of the full buckhorn sights described above and brown it to match the barrel. GF

[catboat]

You can file down the front sight a bit. This will make the shot print higher on the target.

[RetAFSF]

Question, how well does it group with the load your using? My 2 cent opinion is first to find a load/bullet match that produces a tight group first, then look at replacing/filing anything.

[colonelhogan44]

I shot my rifle again tonight after replacing the front sight.

I shot 5 patched round balls with 80 gr of American Pioneer, followed by one 320 gr REAL with 100gr of AP. Then it got dark at 7pm. I guess it's not summer anymore.

Results: Much better!

http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss301/colonelhogan44/Target_zpsee59898c.jpg

I didn't even have to touch the sights. I put a drop of superglue in the threads of both windage and elevation to lock it in for more precise testing next time.

I'm super happy. I think this rifle has a lot of potential. I also got to look all the way down the bore, and it's really clean.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Unfortunately, the back sight on my rifle is not dovetailed...it's attached by two (really stuck and stripped out by the PO) standard screws.

If it was dovetailed, I'd have endless options.

Have a gunsmith fill in the screw holes and cut a dovetail for new buckhorn sights.

[OverMax]

Target: 3 out of 5 on a 50 yards and the Real looks like like it will do a bit beyond the 50 too. I'd be pleased to have pattern like that. Not bad there colonelhogan44. Pretty good shoot'en Sir. Now that you know where it hits at a given distance. I do believe anything trying to sneak by you under 55 yards is going to have a nasty/bad day Sir. I also applaud your effort on bringing this weapon back to its full usefulness. (now all you need is something with allot of antler to cross paths with_:wink:)

[bobknab]

i dont post much and did not
read all the post here
however not to be technical
a high front sight will cause a rifle to shoot low
a low front sight will cause the rifle to shoot high
if the back sight is not adjusted
sights cant be slopping around so
fix them in place if to high file them down or to low
build them up --------------
blessings

[bobknab]

i dont post much and did not
read all the post here
however not to be technical
a high front sight will cause a rifle to shoot low
a low front sight will cause the rifle to shoot high
if the back sight is not adjusted
sights cant be slopping around so
fix them in place if to high file them down or to low
build them up --------------
blessings

[colonelhogan44]

That's exactly right, and exactly the course I took. I replaced the sight with a lower front sight, and put locktite on the threads of the rear to lock it in place.