What do you use for flux?

[OnceFired]

Hi all

New to the forum recently. I am getting started in reloading & casting, and am looking for a bit of advice.

My setup:


Leather apron, welding gloves, face shield, filter mask etc for safety.
Turkey fryer propane burner, steel pot / glass lid, stainless utensils for first pass smelting.
About 20 2-oz individual stainless steel condiment cups for ingot molds (no more baking steel muffin tins!)
Hand-separated all wheel weights (only one steel one got past me, no zincs did so.)
Smelted tape-on WW separately from clip-ons.
Have a smelting thermometer, kept at just over lead melting point (to prevent zinc issue just in case.)
First pass smelting done outside on our concrete patio, plenty of ventilation.
Lee 4-20 bottom pour smelter for actual casting duties. Secondary pass could be in garage with doors open & large portable fans for vent. I don't have a suitable table yet for outdoor, but I do for garage (reload bench & chair.)
Lee 6-cavity .356 9mm round nose tumble lube mold.
Lee tumble lube kit and liquid xlox from White Label Lube guys.


My whole goal of casting was to provide a highly cost effective method of reloading. So, I have purchased everything I could as low priced as I could, even scrounging for sources of lead instead of buying it whenever possible.

I had heard repeatedly that both wax and sawdust functioned quite well as flux. I figured I could find a huge supply of sawdust for free at any home improvement store. I should have a free lifetime supply that way. :)

My problem is this - it seems the sawdust didn't come completely out of my second smelts' first pass group. Those are dirtier ingots visually speaking than the first set of ingots I did with admittedly less dust. I think I may have used too much sawdust, or (more likely) simply not skimmed enough of it out from the bottom & sides.

It is also possible the baking steel muffin molds I used at first were to blame. I inadvertently let the lead harden too much, and had to remove the mold with snips & pliers when all other methods to extricate the ingots had failed. The molds were completely destroyed - but were only $1 each so was a good learning experience. hahahah

Any thoughts on using sawdust in particular, or the ingot color difference issue? I figured I would use the wax from cheap tea candles found at Walmart this time, to see if that helped clean anything up. But since it's going to just carbonize I imagine it wouldn't matter which of the two substances I used.

Thank you,
ZAG

[myfriendis410]

For the sawdust to really do it's job it needs to remain on the melt until it has done it's job. The sawdust turns to charcoal and pulls impurities out of the melt, but IMO the temperature needs to be high enough for it to do it's job. I'm not sure you are quite hot enough; I could be wrong. I rouse and skim and repeat several times when smelting lead for ingots. Most of my lead is pulled from the backstop at the local pistol range so it's pretty full of other things like sand etc.

I found using candle wax to flame up so be aware.

[Del-Ray]

There's a book, a FREE book mind you that a person just published that you may want to read as well. I'm trying to find it, a link has been posted here earlier....

Here we go:

http://www.lasc.us/ArticleIndex.htm

It's on the top: "From Ingot to Target"

It's a good sized book, so make sure you're at work before you print it, or just read it on the puter.

[waksupi]

Stir the melt with a dry stick.

[OnceFired]

I'll have a look at the book, thanks.

Yeah, I left the sawdust in for quite a while, stirring and skimming periodically. It too flared up - both right at addition (even before it hits the lead, if dispersed well) and then of course at the flash point.

I was sure to sprinkle it around so it was reasonably distributed instead of just plopping it in the lead. And, I had already skimmed a few times before the saw dust, since the wheel weights / clips / grit on the weights had already served as flux before that.

I'll keep trying, and keep listening for more advice too.

Thanks,
ZAG

[Reverend Recoil]

Fluxing with canning wax work well enough for me.

[engineer401]

I've fluxed with old candles, paraffin wax and bullet lube. They all worked well for me. I just need to make sure to scrape the pot well. I also use the Frankford Arsenal flux from Midway with success.

[canyon-ghost]

I've used candles, Gulf canning wax, and now I have 10# of parafin from a candle shop that I made into ingots. I like lighting it to burn off all the trash, get pretty clean lead that way.

[Jack Stanley]

The last time I cut up some spruce trees I saved a good bit of the sawdust from the chainsaw . When working outside I use a liberal amount on the melt . Apple wood is good too along with hickory , oak ........

Working down in the dungeon though I am much more skimpy with the sawdust . I use just enough to do the job on my already cleaned ingots but not overwhelm my air mover .

Jack

[BillP]

I stirr with a 1"x1" square wood stick...it's trim molding for houses. The end of the stick catches on fire rapidly and turns to charcoal.

[geargnasher]

Read the Glen Fryxell link.

If you're using grease/oil/wax you are NOT fluxing, you're adding chemicals necessary to create a reduction/oxidation reaction which revert oxide scum to elemental metals. Good, but does nothing for impurities, especially the sort of dissolved metallic impurities found in wheel weights which we boolit casters want removed.

To truly flux, you need sawdust, which also has the same reduction effect as the greases/oils/wax as a bonus.

If your melt is already purified, but needs the oxide scum reduced, a simple chunk of wax thrown in or policing the scum into a pile and working it against the sides of the pot with a pine stick will get rid of it. Skim the small amount of dry, powdered ash out afterwards.

Gear

[10 ga]

If it's just funky lookin ingots don't worry, you will re-flux when you use them to cast. I am a ladel guy and use lots of sawdust. With the manipulating crust to ladel stuff out I am constantly adding sawdust and fluxing. I use oak or maple sticks size of paint stirring paddles to stir the melt. 10 ga




x

[Bad Water Bill]

Beware oof the Frankfort powder as it does draw moisture out of the air.

The tinsile fairy WILL visit your home very soon. Don't ask me.

[Junior1942]

I'll say it again.... Some 20 or 25 years ago a metallurgist told me fluxing did zilch to melted lead alloys. So I stopped fluxing. Some many thousands of cast bullets later, I find that fluxing did zilch to my melted lead alloys. I think the main benefit of fluxing is a nice plume of smoke.

[felix]

I would say the same thing, Junior, if I were not a shooter. For most lead applications the difference would indeed be zilch. Boat anchors/heels and X-rays can care less when doing their intended jobs. ... felix

[Junior1942]

I would say the same thing, Junior, if I were not a shooter. For most lead applications the difference would indeed be zilch. Boat anchors/heels and X-rays can care less when doing their intended jobs. ... felixI am a shooter, Felix. No flux has made zero difference in the quality of my cast bullets. Try it; you might like it.

[David2011]

Most of the WW I've collected had a good coating of oil and grease so I never added anything else.

Gear, ya think the petroleum leftovers plus some sawdust would be the way to go?

David

[Carryacolt]

Junior

Its been awhile since I have molded but now getting back into it. I was told that the purpose of the flux was two fold. First it brought the impurities to the surface plus, and most important, it put the tin back into the lead. In time, the tin would float to the surface and lay on the top. If you would skim it off, then you were lowering the content of it in the lead. At that time, everyone used beeswax to flux.

When I was still working, I was in charge of a solder line process that ran printed circuit boards over a liquid flux pot then directly over a flowing lead pot. The solder pot attendant would skim the solder pot by pulling everything off the top and put it into a bucket. I kept telling the engineer of the project that the solder connections were were going to break down due to the tin being removed and compromising the joint. Yep, some months down the road there was a real problem with no-fills, incomplete fills, and brittle fills. All were rejects and the fix was to flux the lead pot and stirring the tin back into suspension, THEN remove what ever was left on the surface. All the dross was being sold to a salvage for pennies and it was almost pure tin.

[Smithy]

If it's just funky lookin ingots don't worry, you will re-flux when you use them to cast.

The re-fluxing is quite true no matter how clean you think you ingots are. It might be simply dust that collected in your pot or other alloy's in the lead that are now leaching out. My first choice is Brownells Magnaflux. A small container of this lasts for a very long time, but when I ran out recently I again reached for another Brownells product. A jar of powdered rosin. Originally sold to increase friction of barrel clamps and the like. Just a wee bit of either product allow to burn a bit on the surface. After it has turned a uniform black (but still burning, no flames per se but smoke), start stirring it to get it mixed throughout the melt. It gathers contaminants as you stir and always comes up floating on the top. It's then an easy job to skim the dross and have pretty darn clean lead.

Add more ingots to the melt and you'll probably have to flux again. Any introduction of new lead will always produce stuff you don't want in your bullets if only the surface lead oxidation which always comes from a cold ingot. You may have problems with the Lee production pot and the Lee six cavity and pouring a good cast of six bullets. Without fine control of the bottom drop feature it's real easy to dump a little too much lead which runs into the next cavity. If it does, consider that next cavity a goner as you have a spot of cooling lead mixed with newer hot lead. The bullet will always have a crease of other imperfection.

I got a Lyman mag 20 pot and milled my Lee six cavity molds to fit the Lyman mold guide. I never had such a run of keeper bullets than I did with that combination. Good luck and happy casting. Smithy.

[ArrowJ]

I have a neighbor that is an apiarists. Would bees wax do the job?

[Bad Water Bill]

Shhhhhhhhhhhh

Do not mention bees wax here or you will find 1K members at your front door for lunch TODAY:kidding:

There are many pages of how to use bees wax. Look under Boolit Lube but be careful as there is a crowd gathering at your door as we type.:bigsmyl2:

[ArrowJ]

Did I say bees wax? I meant to type beed waxing compound...stupid auto-correct ;)

[MBTcustom]

Geargnasher has the right of this discussion. I hate to disagree with jr., but I'm going to anyway. Somebody can tell me that rotating my tires is an old wives tale, and has no real purpose, but I don't listen to them either.
I do agree with Junior where he says fluxing is a real good way to make a bunch of smoke though, but that is restricted to fluxing with waxes, liquids, and oils.
I "fluxed" with gulf wax for years and years, and I thought I was doing all kinds of good to my pot. Why did I think this? 'Cause my dad told me to and that's about as scientific as it got. When I actually started looking for real scientific results I started seeing the folly of some things and the wisdom of others.
You just can't take or reject things on faith in this discipline. You have to tune your BSometer so that you can discern reality from passed down superstitions. This is not a sport of superstitions, it's a sport of fact and science.
If you don't care about facts or science, be sure not to worry about leaded barrels, large groups, ugly boolits, expensive reloads, and basically a hard time all the way around.
When I think back on all the trouble I went through to get some crummy looking boolits stuffed into some crummy looking brass, so that I could shoot some crummy looking groups, it really depresses me.
Saw dust is the best flux for casting boolits. Its a fact. Now go throw whatever you want in your pot and enjoy the sport!

[Boyscout]

I tried some pine shims I had laying around and they seem to work well for scrubbing the sides of the pot down too.

[Bad Water Bill]

And they smell so nice.

[Alan]

My dad no longer keeps bees. At one time I had access to an unlimited supply of "crumbled" beeswax. Raw stuff that just fell off the combs, and had bee parts, etc. It was the most wonderful flux I have ever used. It did smoke but cleaned the lead, and left a nice coating of pollen dust on top of the lead. Apparently, at any temp I would want to cast at, pollen is totally inert. I could seriously crank the thermostat for minie's, hollow points, etc, and the metal stayed nice and shiny under that layer of pollen.

Since my supply ran out, I'm using natural chunk charcoal crushed fairly fine. I use bottom pour RCBS pot, so I just leave the ash on top to keep the air from my melt.

[MBTcustom]

I wonder if those bee parts and the other crud actually produced activated charcoal of sorts and therefore got you similar results to sawdust.
I used refined beeswax for a while. Seemed like it did better than paraffin but still no comparison to good, new fashioned, saw dust.

[Finarfin]

Oven-dried cat poop is the best.

[zxcvbob]

Oven-dried cat poop is the best.

DO NOT use your wife's good cookie sheet for this. (don't ask)

[Bad Water Bill]

Oven-dried cat is the best.

[smilie=w:Just couldn't resist having fun:bigsmyl2:

[Finarfin]

[smilie=w:Just couldn't resist having fun:bigsmyl2:

Did you ever read the book 101 Uses For a Dead Cat? It's a classic!

[rainy191]

i use cheap powder dish soap

[1Shirt]

At the risk of being considered liberal, I must agree with Junior on this subject. I stur my melt with a wooden dowel! That gets the crud to the top to skim off, and maybe puts some carbon in the melt. Works for me, and I don't fix what works.]
1Shirt!

[GT27]

Gulf brand paraffin wax that you can buy in grocery stores,still on my original pkg...

[rondog]

I'm melting WW's and pouring "muffins" today for the first time. I don't have any sawdust, but I've got gobs of ground walnut shells and corncob for my brass polishing, both new fresh stuff and a lot that's old and used. The used stuff has NuFinish Car Polish mixed in.

Can I use any of this stuff for fluxing? Do I really need to flux at all? At this point, all I'm trying to accomplish is turning large quantities of hard to handle and store wheel weights into little biscuits that will be easier to handle and store. I don't intend to cast any bullets any time soon. My main concern right now is making sure I don't melt any zinc weights into the lead.

[MBTcustom]

Anything that can burn will turn into activated charcoal which is what you are after. All of the stuff you mention fits that description, so go thee hence and prosper.
Use a thermometer and keep your heat below 700 and the zinc will float. Also, you can use a pair of wire cutters to test the WW as you throw them in. You don't need to cut through the WW to see what its made of. To the cutters, lead WW's are like tootsie rolls, and zinc is like jaw-breakers. Use a little touch and you wont have to squeeze very hard at all to tell what you've got.

[Bad Water Bill]

Clean tumbling media is good BUT I would hesitate to use media from the tumbler.

You will have lead byproducts from fired primers mixed in the media along with ? compounds.

I know I would not want to be anywhere near your pot when the used media is added and carbonized.

The fumes could be very dangerous and will settle all over your casting area to haunt you for a long time to come.

I am not a chemist so I might be wrong but is it really worth trying.

[MBTcustom]

Clean tumbling media is good BUT I would hesitate to use media from the tumbler.

You will have lead byproducts from fired primers mixed in the media along with ? compounds.

I know I would not want to be anywhere near your pot when the used media is added and carbonized.

The fumes could be very dangerous and will settle all over your casting area to haunt you for a long time to come.

I am not a chemist so I might be wrong but is it really worth trying.

Ya know, I have to agree with BWB on this one. Don't use used media. However, if you are outside when you schmelt, and far away from any living area, I suppose it would be OK, but don't breath the smoke.
Besides, there is so much burnable stuff outside that you could use instead.

[dromia]

Stir the melt with a dry stick.


Concur, along with dry sawdust if I have it to hand.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Somebody can tell me that rotating my tires is an old wives tale, and has no real purpose, but I don't listen to them either.


Actually tried this one out a while back, the rear tires became so scalloped (FrontWD) you could easily feel it with your hand and the tires went wah, wah, wah, wah... and vibrated so bad I couldn't belive it.

[jimkim]

Tonight I tried crushed Ivory soap and a dry stick. It worked better, for me, than old cooking oil, paraffin wax, beeswax, old boolit lube, sawdust, rosin, turpentine, just a clean stick, charcoal, or borax did. I haven't tried poop or roadkill yet. :holysheep

[Bad Water Bill]

I haven't tried poop or roadkill yet. :holysheep

Try it and if you survive both the wife beating you over the head and the smell report back to us.:bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

[Carolina Cast Bullets]

Gentlemen,
Plain simple sawdust works. A quantity onto the surface of the melt, stirred with a hardwood dowel, fantastic ! ! ! !

Even better if you have a source of hardwood sawdust. I have a buddy who builds furniture, lottsa
walnut, oak, and mahogony sawdust.

Jerry
Carolina Cast Bullets

[MBTcustom]

I got a handful of paint mixing sticks. They work great.

[375RUGER]

I find that the fluxing is easier if I get the melt up to 800*F or so. Sometimes I can't get the sludge back in the mix unless the pot is HOT.
I use sawdust and pulverized charcoal. The coal is homemade, actually a by-product of my Okie Microwave (cooking pit). It's really just a shield on top of the melt to prevent oxidation.

[jimkim]

Try it and if you survive both the wife beating you over the head and the smell report back to us.:bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:
Single parent since 1990. I gave her up for Lent.

[Smithy]

All you folks are talking about using wood, not for the wood's magical powers, but that it turns to charcoal and it's the charcoal doing the work. If that's the case, would a simple crumbled up briquet work? I could rob the BBQ supplies and put a couple in a zip lock bag and munch them to powder real quick and use that if you guys think that'd do the job? No access to sawdust here. Smithy.

[MBTcustom]

No access to sawdust here.
People must not keep gerbils in California? You can get cedar shavings at any pet store for cheap.
Charcoal will work like a champ. Some of what the wood chips/sawdust does, happens as it is turning into charcoal, but cheap charcoal is not completely turned into carbon yet, and still has quite a bit of unburned wood in it, so I think it would work perfectly.
Seriously, you should read the article, it explains so well what the benefits are and why they work.

[Ola]

Yes, I'm a believer: Have been using sawdust (pine, spruce, birch...) for a last 6 months or so. What a difference.. the saw dust is effective, smell is "natural", And there is unlimited supply.

[1bluehorse]

For the best flux use sawdust, No wood in your area?? where the heck you live...:holysheep can you find an old chunk of 2x4 and whittle it with your pocket knife into small pieces of wood and use that. Did I mention sawdust?? Also I must be doing something wrong because I haven't had good luck at all using a wood stick for stirring, seems to get small bits of charcoal in the bottom of the melt. I use a big metal spoon thats been ground flat on the sides and front with several small holes drilled in it...after I flux with ....sawdust....now before you ask about all manner of other stuff to flux with, :veryconfu reread the first sentence...:p

[quasi]

I have used canning wax and or Marvelux for over 30 years. I tried a dried stick-piece of board a couple of days ago while rendering wheel weights down to 400 lb's plus of lead muffins. The dried stick works much MUCH better and creates Way less smoke!

Thanks guys, even a Retard like me can eventually learn something I guess?

[Moonman]

Pat Marlin's CFF (California Flake Flux) his sawdust, nice stuff.

[avogunner]

Usually pine sawdust from my shop or retired walnut media from the tumbler. I stir with a scrap pine stick too.

[yarro]

Saw dust, bee's wax, bullet lube, oily saw dust. They all work, but I found that saw dust is the least offensive if the wind changes when you are on the wrong side of the pot. Find someone who does wood working. They will give you all the sawdust you need. Also ask at the local home improvement store as they cut stuff for customers. I haven't found an appreciable difference in performance between wood types, but some smells better than others when it is smoking and denser woods take less flux due to the more carbon per unit of volume.

-yarro

[Recluse]

For smelting, I use sawdust (I do some amateur woodworking) and chunks of old candles and stir with a hardwood stick.

When I'm smelting, I flux a LOT. . . I'll do an initial fluxing with sawdust, scoop it off, then toss in some candle chunks and light it off, stirring it in and scraping the sides, then finish off with another round of sawdust.

My theory is that the better I can flux and clean the alloy while smelting, the less I'll need to flux in the casting furnace.

For those occasions when I DO flux in the furnace, I use bits of old boolit lube that has seeped out of my Lyman 45s. It doesn't take much.

:coffee:

[John Boy]

The dried stick works much MUCH better and creates Way less smoke! Powdered rosin creates way less smoke. Just tried some last night for the 1st time

[waksupi]

Powdered rosin creates way less smoke. Just tried some last night for the 1st time

John, where do you get powdered rosin? I need some for the leather pads in my vise.

[Bad Water Bill]

Try the sports dept of most major stores.

Pitchers use it for a better grip on the ball.That is where I found the stuff for my bbl vice.

Now someone living down a dirt road in MT should be able to step out the back door and scrape some off the nearest pine tree. :bigsmyl2:

[waksupi]

Try the sports dept of most major stores.

Pitchers use it for a better grip on the ball.That is where I found the stuff for my bbl vice.

Now someone living down a dirt road in MT should be able to step out the back door and scrape some off the nearest pine tree. :bigsmyl2:

Bill, I've been doing that, but getting clean pitch is a pain in the butt. I would rather pay a couple bucks for a lifetime supply. It don't take much to dust a vise!

[John Boy]

John, where do you get powdered rosin?

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/846792/baker-powdered-rosin-1-2-lb

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=1123/Product/ROSIN

http://www.onstagedancewear.com/PD-4076.aspx

[kylix.rd]

Since this seems to be the place for asking about flux materials, I thought I'd ask about one. What about wood ash? I mean it's already burned and is mostly already reduced to a fine powder. Is it the carbon of the charcoal formed from the sawdust or what exactly is doing the work of pulling the impurities out? If you're going for the charcoal phase, what about crushing up a chunk of charcoal? Is the *process* of creating the charcoal necessary for proper fluxing?

Needless to say I understand what and why there is the need for fluxing... I'm just wondering about the metalurgical/chemical process involved.

Thanks.

[Smithy]

Powdered rosin creates way less smoke. Just tried some last night for the 1st time

That's also what I use and it works like a champ. It also only takes a very little amount to do the job. I had a jug of Brownells rosin for barrel clamping and to secure center's in my lathe's tailstock. I remember Frank Brownell saying in one of his quips and quotes they send out now and then that powdered rosin also works as a good casting flux so when I ran out of Magnaflux, that was what I grabbed and have been with it ever since. I love products that can do more than just one job. Smithy.

[cbrick]

kylix.rd

Here is the link that will explain this in clear english and take out the mystery and voodoo. Chapter 4 is on fluxing but I highly recommend reading the entire book.

From Ingot To Target (http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_textonly2.pdf)

Rick

[Sonnypie]

I just use Lizard Litter (http://www.petco.com/product/102881/Zilla-Ground-English-Walnut-Shells-Reptile-Bedding.aspx?cm_mmc=CSEMGoogleAdExtProd-_-Reptile-_-Zilla-_-1038990&mr:trackingCode=26E7EB15-8381-DE11-B7F3-0019B9C043EB&mr:referralID=NA&mr:adType=pla&gclid=CPucuuH9gLMCFUyCQgod8BAAeQ) from Petco.
I got a bag before I went with STM for tumbling.
I tried it one day and never looked back.
Clean and easy to use.
Even the wife likes the smell of the smoke... ;)

I thought about using used tumbler media, until someone pointed out the residues that might be in it, and metal oxides.

[Smithy]

From Ingot To Target

It took way too many pages of high priced words to just say that he was a sawdust dude and uses saw dust. Do I care if I have a slight percentage of aluminum oxide infused into my bullet allow? Quite simply NO I do not. Do I get clean consistent casts/bullets that are free of voids and surface imperfections that end up weighing consistently? If yes, then obviously the flux that I am or am not using is doing its job! (they make copper bullets you know). That's another reason that bottom drop pots came along in metallurgy. **** floats to the top most of the time and if you draw from the bottom, you exclude the ****! Rosin for me is not obnoxious smelling, works quickly, and gets a majority of the floating **** combined at the top of the melt so it can be easily removed as slag. Smithy.

[cbrick]

Wow Smithy, sure sounds like books are not for you. Your post sounds like you would be well served by avoiding them.

Rick

[gofastman]

I have been using oily kitty litter that I soak with diesel engine oil I get from work called Castrol SLX.
SLX is an interesting product, it It was designed to meet a new specification called VW 507 00 made for their TDI diesel engine.
Its designed to be extremely clean when it burns (ALL engines burn some oil) and leave minimum sludge and soot behind to damage emissions equipment, all qualities that make it perfect for fluxing!

[Smithy]

No Rick I have read a lot of books on the subject and a lot of reloader's guides and specifically any words of wisdom from makers of lead smelting equipment (figuring that they should know what they're talking about).

Did you ever hear the joke about the pot roast? Great Grandma set down the recipe many years ago and has been passed down generation after generation. The first task after selecting the roast was to tie it in a specified manner and then cut a portion off of each end of the roast. Well the great granddaughter got ahold of the recipe and wondered just exactly why the end's of the roast had to be cut off. Her mom told her that that was the way it had always been done and offered no further explanation. She then asked her grandmother and she said "Oh that's easy, my mom did that so it would fit into the pan she had." How soon we forget what is real and is folk tale and soon the folk tale becomes Gospel since that's the way it has always been done.

When I started shooting at age 18 I knew absolutely nothing about anything gun related having come from a gun free home. After shooting my shotgun long enough I got to where I could hit a few hand thrown clays. Then I started shooting trap, but that seemed to me a military rank way of disposing of a lot of ammunition. I always saw the skeet boys and it looked like they were having fun and not just hurrying so the next squad could shoot.

Then I shot skeet. Even got registered in the NSSA and went to tournaments. Every body and their brother was an expert. Lead this one at three feet would be said by one only for another to say lead by 3 and a half or 4 feet. Stand this way, or stand that way. Keep your gun aimed at the opening of the house before you call for the bird, and aim at the bottom of the house since the birds are rising. Soon I realized that some, no most of all that benifit of advice, yes including numerous books on the subject were full of Poop!! Only one answer could be true and the rest had to be garbage. Finally I hit my first 90 degree bird with a pass through lead, not a sustained lead or any other suggestion I have ever read or received. I had something better. A mental picture of what it looked like when I was about to smash the bird into thousands of pieces. Priceless. I was shooting in the dozens with 12 or 13 of 25 being my best to the very next round hitting a 24 and from there on out I was always in the twenties. Now those gents suggesting a three foot lead may very well be using that and it works for them. Not me. I had to find a way (not to just be different) that I could use that I'd end up breaking targets.

Same with casting. I've had my share of mistakes and learned from each and every one of them. I also found out what works and what does not for my particular pot (and its settings), my molds (and their condition), and my flux (and what was inexpensive and available to me). I found it and it works. May be not be every ones cup of tea, but it's mine.

I ran into the same thing in SASS. I got my cowboy gear, a couple of Ruger 45's and a Rossi lever action with a Stoeger SXS to finish it off. Looking at the various posts on the SASS Wire they'd make it out that folks would be fool hardy to ever think of using a Rossi for their rifle since no one in the winner's circle used them. SO! I did and it worked for me to have fun which was the sole reason I joined that organization. When I suggest to a new shooter that a Rossi 45 lever rifle might be considered due to its low price I was always scoffed at by the other book reading, longer shooting self appointed experts. Fine, they can shoot a $2,000.00 dollar rifle if they want. I'm doing just fine indeed with my $450.00 Rossi. Smithy.

[stubshaft]

I usually use Pat Marlins Flake Flux (basically cedar sawdust). I have used old rosin with good results too (old fiddle rosin).

[badbob454]

i use tree trimming chips got a 5 ft pile and some old candle wax helps heat up the melt and skims off easy the wax helps the lead fall off the clips on the coww's
(clip-on wheel weights

[geargnasher]

It took way too many pages of high priced words to just say that he was a sawdust dude and uses saw dust. Do I care if I have a slight percentage of aluminum oxide infused into my bullet allow? Quite simply NO I do not. Do I get clean consistent casts/bullets that are free of voids and surface imperfections that end up weighing consistently? If yes, then obviously the flux that I am or am not using is doing its job! (they make copper bullets you know). That's another reason that bottom drop pots came along in metallurgy. **** floats to the top most of the time and if you draw from the bottom, you exclude the ****! Rosin for me is not obnoxious smelling, works quickly, and gets a majority of the floating **** combined at the top of the melt so it can be easily removed as slag. Smithy.

I think you miss the entire point here. I don't care if you understand it or not, but your mystical attitude does not change the chemistry of what does or does not happen in your casting pot.

Glen Fryxell is a Ph,D. chemist who understands and was kind enough to explain in common language the what, how, and why of fluxing and reducing boolit metal. He also explained that simply reducing oxides (what most everyone through continuous perpetration of myth believes is actually FLUXING) is not enough, and that there are disadvantages, such as tin loss in oxide form, to using certain commercial fluxes. The bottom line is he uses sawdust. Don't miss the fact of WHY he uses sawdust. He uses it because it both fluxes boolit metal by removing the things considered impurities by us boolit casters, to wit calcium, aluminum, iron, zinc, manganese, cadmium, etc., and leaving the things we WANT like lead, antimony, arsenic, copper, and tin behind while reducing the oxidized fractions in the dross layer to elemental metals so they are not wasted in the skimming. Understanding the difference between what happens when you add sawdust or pine rosin to your melt can be very important.

I keep seeing the misconception over and over again here on this forum that dumping in a chunk of wax and watching it burn off on the surface of the melt is actually doing anything like FLUXING. Yes, it reduces oxides on the surface, but it doesn't really help the FLOW (flux) of the metal by removing the impurites that affect the grain structure of the alloy. Most people I guess will never know the difference, but that also perpetrates another myth that cast boolits can't be shot as fast or as accurately as copper-jacketed bullets. If you understand and take care of the little details like grain structure and temper of your alloy, and are extremely careful about mould temperature, fill rate, and alloy temperature, as well as a myriad of other little details that aren't readily perceiveable to the naked eye but are known through science, you can do amazing things. Your .45 ACP blasting dirty wheel weights at 800 fps into man-sized targets at 15 yards won't prove it, though.

Gear

[cbrick]

Soon I realized that some, no most of all that benifit of advice, yes including numerous books on the subject were full of Poop!! Smithy.

Some people refuse to learn, to each their own. Seems that my first reply to your post was spot on. You would be well served by avoiding poop/books.

Rick

[zxcvbob]

Your .45 ACP blasting dirty wheel weights at 800 fps into man-sized targets at 15 yards won't prove it, though.

And yet, subsonic blasting ammo is a worthwhile exercise too.

[jaysouth]

People must not keep gerbils in California? You can get cedar shavings at any pet store for cheap.
Charcoal will work like a champ. Some of what the wood chips/sawdust does, happens as it is turning into charcoal, but cheap charcoal is not completely turned into carbon yet, and still has quite a bit of unburned wood in it, so I think it would work perfectly.
Seriously, you should read the article, it explains so well what the benefits are and why they work.

You don't want to know what some people in CA do with Gerbils!

[Smithy]

I was afraid that this thread would come to this.

I think you miss the entire point here. I don't care if you understand it or not, but your mystical attitude does not change the chemistry of what does or does not happen in your casting pot.
And NO I do NOT have a "mystical attitude" about my choice of flux. Brownells tech team suggested it when I was panicking about getting a replacement can of Magnaflux (or what Brownell's calls their product?) and their tech team asked if I had a jug of their powdered rosin. I said "Yes I have a lot of it." and then I was told to not panic about their other product as the rosin I had would do everything I needed a flux to do. I said "Thank you." and I've been using it ever since with great results.

You folks like sawdust apparently. Great, good for you. Have fun! Just don't come off thinking I do odd things with gerbils because I do NOT take your advice. Didn't you read the SASS Wire and grandma's roasting pot examples? In SASS people actually called me an idiot for shooting an 1892 Winchester copy? Who made them King or intellectually superior to me. Reasoning given rather made them to sound as the idiot's, not I. I don't care if they feel compelled to shoot a $2,000.00 dollar + rifle and have the tar beat out of it just the same as my $400.00 + Rossi was going to get beat (SASS is very rough on rifles and shotguns due to rapid staging of the weapons on the clock). When we both destroyed our guns, I could buy three more and still spend less than they did for one rifle. NOW who's the idiot. I was chastised for shooting SASS for fun and not competition. Now if you come in 130th out of 132 shooters I would hope that you're only doing it for fun, otherwise get another hobby.

We don't need to get into a pissing contest in saying mine's better.....No it's not...Yes it is, and on and on. What's the point? I'm still NOT going to use sawdust (allergies aside) and I probably can deduct that you will never use rosin. Fine. Let it be. And I promise not to call anyone stupid or ignorant if they do. Now suggest to put an ice cube in your melt to cool it down and I might say something. Smithy.

[kylix.rd]

cbrick, Thanks for the link. I'll certainly peruse it and download to my kindle for more "reading room" material :).

Oh and I certainly had no intention of stiring things up into the "great flux wars" ;).

[geargnasher]

No wars, just trying to educate. Some are open, some are not. The more people who know what's going on, the fewer the wive's tales will be, and the less the confusion will be for the next round of new guys.

Gear

[kylix.rd]

geargnasher, From my perspective, all myths can be dispelled by fully understanding the underlying chemical/metalurgical theory behind a particular fluxing or reducing agent. I'm just learning so I look to the "old-timers" for guidance. I also try and absorb as much information as I can from as many sources as possible. I like it when someone suggests a route and also follows it up with a good explanation of why. I only hope I remain open to more information, while also spotting the BS and weeding that out :).

I did read the "fluxing" chapter in the suggested material, and I have to agree that it was information dense with well explained theory. The bottom line is what you need a given flux/reducing agent to do. Having a few available agents will allow you to select the right one for a given melt. For the very few smelting sessions I've done, I've found that cleaning the whole melt is accomplished using sawdust (actually I used some corncob media with positive results). For killing the "skin" on top, a small amount of wax does the trick. I'm sure my technique will evolve and be refined over time. Right now I'm just thoroughly enjoying the learning process.

[BossHoss]

Glens book is awesome, first thing I was pointed to upon arriving here, and it is stuck to my desktop.

I use Walnut hand-planing shavings , awesome render down to perfect ash, great smell, perfectly clean lead alloy.

This "bit" of well explained theory, is just one of the jewels in his book. I love technical writing about this hobby.

for me: It is all about the meat. The End Game, meat on the table. Taken responsibly, cleanly, with every skill associated with it, well practiced and studied.

From the food plots to the projectile leaving the barrel and hitting its clean kill mark, and everything in between.

Glen's book is just one compendium of knowledge of one part of the THAT process, that is what is is to me.