45-70 load for Marlin 1895 STP 16" barrel

[Frank Drebin]

Wow. So much info to digest. Little bit about me. I've reloaded, but never cast bullets. This is also my first 45-70. I have a 100lb supply of pure, medical-grade lead in ingots that a cowboy shooter friend of mine is going to cast into 509gr RN for me. He'll keep a percentage for his effort. I'm not sure what he'll mix it with to harden, or the mix rate, nor do I know what mold he's using. Both important, I know. I also haven't slugged my barrel yet.

I guess I'm looking for general guidance on a plinking load (medium velocity/presssure) for a 509gr RN. I plan on using Starline brass and I've got more than enough large rifle primers from when I stocked up well before Obama got in office.

1. What would you mix with the pure lead and in what ratio?
2. Gas check? Which ones? I don't feel like making them; I'd prefer to buy.
3. Lube? Which one?
4. Powder choice? I'm assuming a faster burning than normal for 45-70 since it's only a 16 inch barrel. With a projectile this big, I'm not sure how much I'd have to worry about having a volumous powder to take up case space.
5. Some sort of wad under the projectile? If so, which kind?

I appreciate the help and your knowledge on the matter. Like I said, I still need to slug my barrel and whatnot to see if they mold he's using is even the right one for me. I'm just trying to cut some of the potential troubleshooting down the road out of the equation early. And I'm sorry that I'm even asking this. I'm sure these questions have been addressed in different forums over time. I did actually do some searching and reading to take on these questions myself, but it's such an overwhelming amount of data.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Frank: First, there is no such thing as a 509 gr "Plinking Load." :shock: 500gr is nearly an ounce and a quarter. and getting it moving requires a substantial push.

My plinking loads for .45-70 use 300 gr boolits and 25 gr of XMR 5744 powder. About 1200 fps, and I could go lighter.

My gun is a Marlin 1895 Cowboy with a 26" barrel but still only weighs 7lbs 2oz. It is getting lead added to the stock until I see 9+lbs. as even with this light load trying to shoot 40+ rounds in one sitting takes its toll.

With 35 gr and the same boolit in my gun which also has a huge Pachmayer Recoil pad installed it will wake right you up. About 1600 fps. Good for most North American game.

With 35 gr and a 405 gr boolit it will flat get your attention. WE can go to Africa with this load.

With a 500 gr boolit at any speed I would be good for maybe 2-3 shots! Followed by intense suffering.

Your gun probably weighs in the 6 lb range, so there will be a real penalty to pay with heavy loads on the back end.

The original 1873 Trapdoor Springfield "rifle load" was a 500gr boolit with 70 gr of Black Powder. When used in the Trapdoor "Carbine" this load was just too much for most of the guys to shoot. So they toned the load down to a 405gr boolit and 70 gr of BP.

A 400 gr Belt Mountain Punch Brass Solid will go completely thru an elephant end to end at less than 2000 fps. from these guns. You probably won't see 2000 fps from a 16" barrel however you could see 1800fps, and that is enough to drive a Hard solid lead boolit thru virtually any game animal on earth, as well as many smaller cars and light trucks

I would start out with a light 300 gr boolit load and work up til I couldn't stand it any more, which would be way before 500 gr boolits.

You will lose some velocity with the 16" barrel but not enough to affect anything. However you will gain lots of recoil with the lighter gun, and that will probably be your limiting factor for how hard you want to push this gun.

A 405 gr bullet (Remington Factory load) runs about 1250-1300 fps. It has killed just about everything known to man, and is certainly powerful enough for anything on this continent.

As far as lead goes try the standard Lyman #2 formula to start.

And there are many suitable powders. For light loads 5744 and Trailboss, for midrange loads IMR 3031, and for the real arsekicker loads H335. Real **** kicker loads are 1800 fps and above with 400gr+ boolits. These are very formidale loads! :holysheep

Any reloading manual will have many powders and many cast and jacketed bullet loads for your gun.

It is a very versitile round and can be made as mild or wild as you choose. It came out in 1873 and is more popular now than ever before, primarily because of the versitility of the cartridge and the availability of realitively inexpensive but high quality guns to shoot it.

I highly recommend you start out slow/small and work up til your pain threshold is reached. Starting out with a 500gr boolit will just make you hate the gun.

Randy

[mpmarty]

I've got an early seventies 1895 w/ a 22" barrel. I've tried 400 gr round nose flat point cast and didn't like them at anything much over 1200 fps. I now exclusively use the Ranch Dog 350 gr .460 boolit at around 1750 it kills 'em dead and isn't too bad to shoot in the field. I have also used that boolit and load to cut limbs off of trees around the house. Good practice. Not so much fun on the bench.

[44man]

PAIN---it will get your attention fast with the light 45-70 rifle.
I have a heavy Browning BPCR (must weigh 12#) and anything from 500 up with a full charge of BP will beat the shoulder. I would never shoot those from a Marlin! [smilie=l:
3031 seemed to have the least recoil impulse in an old original trap door while 4198 mashed my cheek.
4759 and 5744 would be good to try but the boolit weight is going to get you anyway.

[EDK]

I just looked up prices on cast bullets from GRAFS for your 45/70 and will be in sticker shock for awhile. Prices ranged from $.25 up to $1.00 EACH.

My preference is a 350 grain plain base bullet for my 1895 COWBOY rifle. IF I wanted to speed it up, I have a 300 grain gas check design mould from RCBS that I've had for years. The RANCH DOG 350 would be a good choice, BUT he is going out of business (Damn!) so get it while you can. I tried 5744 powder and liked it in both the 45/70 (and 30/30) BUT it is over 25% higher than the alternatives. (I always figure for bulk reloading, so cost is a major factor.)

A light weight and short barrelled 45/70 is a super brush gun, but may be less than comfortable for extended shooting.

:redneck: :cbpour: :guntootsmiley:

[mehavey]

See:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1839094&postcount=4

and

http://beartoothbullets.com/images/bullets/BTB-45R-400gLFNBB2.jpg

That's about where you want to go with reasonable cast bullets:
- Weight-wise
- Design-wise (no gas check needed)
- Alloy-wise (Lyman#2 and/or 1:30 maybe)
- Lube-wise (a good BP lube like DGL and/or a high pressure lube like LBT)
- Velocity-wise (1,400)
- Powder-wise (AA5744 and/or IMR4759, neither of which needs any filler to give consistant ignition.
Never use any wad unless powder/wad/bullet are all in contact, ...which in a 45-70 is essentially 'never' unless w/ Black Powder)

You can go faster/heavier/more complex bullet -- but you're fighting diminishing returns.

[pistolman44]

I definately would reconsider 500 grain boolit in that 16" brl. I have a Guide gun 18" brl. and after shooting some 405gr's made me back up to the 350gr gc. Those big boolits are no fun. I had a can of IMR 4198 powder that I had used. I want to try some revolver powder like Unique and 2400 for lite loads for plinking.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I had an 1895-S Marlin and I could not get the 500 gr. boolits to cycle through the action. The slug was to long. My favorite cast boolit for that gun was the Lyman 292 gr boolit but even then any thing over 1300 FPS would beat the heck out of me.

[Nrut]

I had an 1895-S Marlin and I could not get the 500 gr. boolits to cycle through the action. The slug was to long. My favorite cast boolit for that gun was the Lyman 292 gr boolit but even then any thing over 1300 FPS would beat the heck out of me.
Chevroner brings up a very good point..
For a 500gr. bullet to feed and chamber in a lever action they have to have a relative short nose..
Most 500gr. round nose bullets won't feed or chamber in a lever action..
You should make up a dummy round with one of those 509gr RN that your friend has and try it in your rifle..

I would alloy your pure lead with WW @ 50/50 (air cooled) and anneal the noses or the whole bullet for hunting..

For gas checks I use Hornady ..
I hear good things about Gator gas checks but they can be harder to come buy than Hornady checks..

For lube I use speed green from Bullshop but I think they went out of business..
Call or PM lar45 or randyrat and tell them what you are doing and they will sell you the lube you need..
They are vendors here..
Or make your own with beeswax and Vaseline mixed 45/55 by weight..

[mehavey]

The RCBS 45-500FN will cycle.

Still, I recommend against 500's as hard on the shooter and adding nothing to effectiveness over
a 400-grainer on any but Grizzly bear -- and maybe not even then. :veryconfu

[W.R.Buchanan]

The RCBS .45-300 FN, .45-405FN, and the .45-500FN are all essentially the same bullet they just have longer bases. The longer boolits just don't allow as much space for powder, however that is not a problem as there is plenty of space for just about anything you could possibly want ot do.

They were designed so that the nose defined the overall length of the round and that would cycle in all lever actions. That length is 2.550 and whereas you can fudge a little, much longer just won't go thru the action.

You can still single load though.

Really though 500gr boolits are not even necessary for Buffalos as a 405 gr boolit will do as much or more damage. You can only poke a .45 cal hole all the way thru something. All a bigger boolit will do is poke it thru more things on the off side.

Randy

[largom]

I have a Marlin 1895 45-70, they are good guns but I would not punish my gun or my body with that boolit.

Larry

[MT Chambers]

40 grains of Rl-7 will give you 1600fps from a standard length barrel safely, your vel. could be down to 1300fps....I use loads such as these with 500 and 555gr. bullets here in canada on big game, and the only problem is trajectory at over 100 yds. or so.....I 'd cast them from pure lead and mix in some tin for a 30-1 or 20-1 mix and you can still get some expansion, I'd stay away from wheelweights if you want exp. at those velocities.

[ButterNutZ]

Well seems like the OP and me are the only ones that want to shoot 500gr plus slugs out here. Frank, I drive RCBS 45-405 at 1850fps out of GBL and it's not all that bad, except for the snot on the buttstock. The 500gr RCBS is right at 1500fps and it's a bit more recoil, but still very manageable. Both use gas checks and shoot great. I shot the 405gr out to three hundred yards and can hit 12 inch plate 3 out of 3 times, so it's plenty accurate for me. For lube I just use 1 part ATF to 5 parts bees wax by weight.

[W.R.Buchanan]

ButternutZ: The snot on the buttstock is what we are concerned with.

I could probably live thru 2-3 of those big boomers, I just cant bring myself to carry a large box of Kleenex with me in the field.

Randy

[btroj]

Yeah, no thanks. The older I get the less I find those types of load "fun".

If I have a need, like hunting something really, really big, I mihr do it. For range use, a 420 at 1350 is fine. Shoots great, 50 in a trip is easy to do.

Pain just isn't fun any more.

[gunseller]

Wish I would have stopped sooner. It is good to know that the 500 grain boolit from a RCBS mold will work through the action on a Marlin as all of the 500 grain boolits I have tried would not fit through the loading gate. If you want to get real heavey I can give you a load of IMR 3031 that will get your boolit up around 1850 fps from a 7 1/2 pound rifle. Talk about snot on the stock. It sounds like the price of the boolits are right so a load that puts the boolit out at around 1200 fps will be OK shooting. IMR 3031, 2400, H335 or any powder like the above will work.
Have fun.
Steve

[Kevinkd]

I use both the Lee 340 gr and 450 gr Lead Flat point lee molds. This gun has a really long barrel (like 30") and weighs alot so less recoil. My plinker loads are:

340 gr - 14 gr trailboss about 1100 fps
450 gr - 10 gr trailboss about 910 fps

I pan lube them with a 50/50 NRA mix (works great).

These are loads available online and are from the long barrel so your shorter barrel will be slower.

Thing is, the 450 gr may be slow but dang, it can throw an old propane tank at 100 yards for 20 feet when its NOT punching a 3 inch hole in both sides. Thats crazy power so just because its subsonic doesnt mean its not super dangerous.

Have fun.

[TCLouis]

350 nominal weight boolit (Lee is 340, RCBS 325,RD's 365).

10.5 -14.0 or so Unique

[Northerner]

I'm shooting 500's out of mine, it pushes more than punches. RCBS's 45-500-FN (everything else is too long, the weight in the bullet is in the case for the most part). Loads are for trapdoor's in the Lyman 49 Reloading Guide. Sized at .459 IMR 4198 works the best in terms of accuracy.

Using the 1895 loads or loads for the Ruger #1 (in a Ruger #1) are way too much! Stick to the trapdoor loads and you will be fine.