Handy rifle problem -reloads?

[broomhandle]

Hi Guys,

A pal of mine is having a strange problem with two of his H&R Handy rifles.
A 45-70 & I think he said a .243

The problem is that after the third reload with light or heavy loads / lead or jacketed bullets. The rifle unlocks by itself!:killingpc

H&R does not want to know about reloads, they are no help! The rifles are good to go with new ammo all the time!

This problem occurs with new brass or new fired cases with jacketed or lead bullets ONLY after the third reloading. I have no clue, to help him out.

He has miked the rims, case's over all case size & checked over the two rifles!
Any one have any idea what's up?

Thanks in advance,
broomhandle

[MT Chambers]

Those guns are kinda known for that, I've seen 'em open on firing in many diff. cals....you get what you pay for.

[waksupi]

Those guns are kinda known for that, I've seen 'em open on firing in many diff. cals....you get what you pay for.

That has been my opinion of them since they came out. Some are enamored by "cheap". As you say, you get what you pay for, so don't complain when they work like a cheap gun.

[nanuk]

usually opening on firing is one of two things

1) the shelf is not clean and dry. All the contact surfaces have to be bone dry and clean

2) the shooter doesn't lock it up with "Authority", but closes it gently to a click. the Handi's need to be shut with some force, as the angles of the shelf and locking surfaces are at an angle, that can be cammed open on firing. Clean and dry, AND a firm closure usually fixes this.


that he is having this issue with both rifles in different calibers makes me think he needs to clean them very well, and slap them shut with a very good thunk... the surfaces will eventually seat together better with multiple cycles... I have read where on a brand new Handi, it should be cleaned well, and then cycled about 100 times before firing it. I guess there is a slight "Lapping" effect.

[nanuk]

oh...

a question: does it go... 1, 2 good ones, then opens on third, then 4 and 5 are good, opens on 6: 7,8 good, opens on 9 etc... all at the same sitting, one right after the other?

[Goatwhiskers]

Nanuk is absolutely right on both counts, clean and DRY, also closing firmly. Number of reloads, if I'm understanding the OP correctly, has no bearing. If he's talking about the third shot in a string, I still see no relation to unlocking. I strongly suspect high end loads being used. There is one other remote possibility and that is incorrect fit of the latch with the shelf, which is easily remedied. Read the FAQ on the graybeard site, all the info is there. Remember, the primary cause of action opening in the Handi is lube on the shelf or high pressure loads. Here endeth the lesson. GW

[Gtek]

Black Sharpie color shelf for visual of engagement, I have seen one that was not even square. I have just over a couple and I think they are a great deal. They are what they are, nothing more, nothing less. The ten rule applies here to, your going to get a stinker in every batch. It is nothing that cannot be easily dealt with. Amen to all the above! Gtek

[TCoggins]

If the OP's comment about the third reload refers to the third time a particular piece of brass was reloaded, it may be an issue of the case stretching a bit each time it is fired. If he is neck sizing the case, and not bumping the shoulder back, the action may not be closing completely, which would cause the action to open up on firing.

Not sure if this would affect the 45-70, as I'm not sure you can neck size that case.

Tim

[broomhandle]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for your help He will try to join soon!

I talked to him today he said the cases measure right & the rifle is clean & dry.
I did not ask about snapping the rifle shut with vigor!

Best,
broomhandle

[abner]

Hello

Thanks Broom for helping me get an answer to the problem on my 22-250 Handi. We had a phone conversation and talked reloading and solved many of the issues I had except the 22-250 problem.

Yes they are inexpensive rifles but the three I own shoot well enough for me. I own a 22-50, 45-70, and .500 S&W Magnum. I really have no major issues with the rifles they all shoot well. The 45-70 will put 5 rounds into the same hole at fifty yards with Remington 405 Grain ammo. My issue is with the 22-250 popping the breech open on the third reload of the casing. Factory new is fine, first reload is fine, but the third time(second reload) is when the action opens. I tried starting with reloads for the first time which is ok, second time was ok, but the third time they opened the breech again. The factory loads were Winchester 40 grain, Remington 45 grain and Remington 55 grain. I just started to reload for this cartridge so I was working up a load. I used the once fired Rem brass, Winny brass, and the new brass was Winny also. I used Hornady 50 Gn. V-max bullets with Varget powder, and CCI large BR primers. I started with Varget because the lowest Cup pressure was with this powder. Also I set the bullet .003"/.005" off the rifling. I had other powders and bullets to try but had good results with what I was working with for groupings. The action is clean and dry. Maybe I was not snapping shut hard enough, I thought I was. So I will resume my loading again and try different things. I just got a neck sizer for the 22-250, I just never used them. This is where I am with my 22-250 Handi.

This is my first post here hope it went well. About me. I just like to shoot almost anything. I do not hunt any more, but maybe someday I will go again that is why I got the 45-70 Handi. I reload for most cartridges I shoot. I sure do like older S&W revolvers and Italian shotguns.


Than You

abner/Joe

[Goatwhiskers]

Really think there are 2 possibilities here. One is that you are not kissing the shoulder of the case, thereby setting up a stretch situation and by the third reload your case is not seating as it should and the action cannot lock up properly. The other and highly likely is a poor fit of locking lug and shelf, easily remedied as said before. The gun should NEVER unlock when things are working properly. Goat

[largom]

Are you full length resizing the cases each time? As Goatwhiskers said, it sounds like a case length problem to me.

Larry

[nanuk]

I think GW has it nailed.....

[OBXPilgrim]

Black Sharpie color shelf for visual of engagement, I have seen one that was not even square.

Gtek

Since you have the 45-70 & 500 SW you might as well check the contact.

Color the locking shelf on the barrel (angled edge under the chamber) - take the barrel off & mark all across it. Put it back together & cycle it open & closed a dozen times, snapping it sharply each time. Compare the engagement length of the 3. If the 22-250 is smaller, bingo. The barrel release lever (next to the hammer) will tell you also. After it's locked closed, guns that have alot of vertical play left in the release have less contact engagement. BUT, you don't want no play - that means it may end up loosening up (barrel to receiver fit) before much longer.

I think the shoulder may be pushed out too, 3rd try may be putting more stress on a poor fitting lug.

HTH

[JIMinPHX]

I'm on board with the clean it & close it with authority advice. That is standard mantra for the Handi. The dry part is new to me, but also seems to make sense.

Case length issues were the first thing to pop into my head, but I am also curious if the barrels were both correctly fit to the gun at the factory or if a barrel from another gun was just swapped onto his receiver. You can swap barrels from one gun to another on a Contender, but that is against the official rules with a Handi. Personally, I don't believe in the drill bit & beer can shim tricks that the guys over on Grey Beard recommend for fitting the barrels up on a different receiver.

The Handi is usually set up a little tight at the factory. After several hundred rounds, they usually start to lock up a little easier. In the beginning, it is very easy to not close the action hard enough & have the latch not lock up all the way.

[Blammer]

I called NEF told them the issue, as my 243 did it with factory loads. I sent it back, they fixed it. Works fine now.

[nanuk]

Blammer, what was the fix?? did you figure out what they did?

[abner]

Hello

Gentlemen thanks for the replies.

I am full length sizing each time, but will check to make sure the neck is being set back a few grand. When I started loading these the case length would grow .005-.008". I am not near the max load. Could my sizing die be wrong? It is RCBS, which does not mean anything.

I think I am closing the action hard enough. I checked the shelf with a marker on the 22-250, looks to be about 3/4+ contact. Yes this area is clean and dry.

My 22-250 shoots factory ammo fine (action not popping open).

Blammer does your .243 work well with reloads after the fix?

Thanks

Joe

[OBXPilgrim]

If you are the FRIEND mentioned in the original post. Then, Welcome. Hope some of this helps. Did you attempt to look at the engagement on the latch?

[abner]

hello

Yes i am the friend, OBX. I checked the latch engagment looks to be about 3/4+ engagement. I am wondering if it may be the sizing die I am using, I have another RCBS sizer die that is not setting the shoulder back enough on those casing also, just a thought.

Thanks

Joe

[Greg]

Joe-

remove the barrel from your action.

remove the extractor

make sure chamber is clean and dry...

drop in a factory new case

a once fired case

a once fired case after resizing

a third fired case and again after sizing

do all the cases fit in the chamber exactly to the same depth ??

which ones, if any stand proud ??

[abner]

Hello

Greg I did part of your suggestion when I bought the rifle. I picked up 200 rounds of different factory ammo to see what worked. I then got the dies and some bullets. Once I had some empty cases I set the the dies. As part of the set up I did use the barrel to set the case and set bullet depth a few grand off the rifling. New ammo was .002-. 005" below chamber face. I set the reloaded ammo to the same depth, also likewise with the second time reload (third counting factory). I trimmed the cases between reloading.

I fired four rounds of the ammo that opened the rifle and stopped. Gave the other 16to a friend to shoot in his bolt gun. I just shot factory afer that.


Thanks

Joe