Marlin 336 .35 rem. accuracy issues

[Lefty SRH]

I'm enjoying shooting cast thru my 336 in .35 Remington, but I'm having some accuracy issues. I'm shooting a RCBS 35-200 boolit with IMR 3031. I got about 100 or so from another forum member, unfortunately I don't remember who.

Its odd, one charge will group so I will duplicate it and try again and the group just blows out. Everything is shot at 100yds from the bench and the rifle is scoped for now. Once I find the majic load I plan to remove the scope and use XS peep sights.

I loaded some up sized at .358" and they showed some promise early on and thats was the only die I had at the time. I have a .359" and a .360" on the way. I slugged the bore this evening after another range session and it slugged .3575"

What size should I be sizing this boolit? I feel its a little small (at .385") but then again there's absolutely NO LEADING in the barrel so I thought I was ok.

Anu other tips or suggestions?

[Salmoneye]

I have always been told that you want at least a thousandth over bore, so if your next choice of sizing is 1.5 thousandths over bore (.359"), I would try that and see how she likes it...

[357Mag]

Lefty -

Howdy !

When working up loads for me new M-336 XLR .35Rem, I decided to shoot test groups after performing each seperate brass prep process.

For example:
- I uniformd the primer pockets, and shoot a 5-shot group(s).
- I de-burred the flash holes, and shot a group(s)
- and so forth......

What I found:

Shooting "J"-words, I found that after each case prep process had been performed; the group(s) shot tighter & tighter my gun, my loads )
[ I was shooting "reduced loads " ]

After performing all the case prep steps, in the end... I was able to shoot
5 shots @ 100 that went into 5/8in; multiple times.

I have shot 3-shot sub-groups @ 100 with my XLR that ran in the .250"s range.
*** The smallest 3-shot group measured .200" ( had/ am having wind-doping challenges.

I am absolutely convinced that my Marlin M-336XLR lever rifle is a gun capable of " shooingt " 5-shot groups in the .2s"
NOW... if only I can do MY part, and get the wind doping down ( I only use one wind flag ).

My point: Don't sell the brass short.

Rx -
Do a slight " skim trim " of the outer case necks, to remove " orange peel "; and to uinform neck wall thickness & concentricity.

I don't FL size my .35 Rem brass... at all.
Not only is it not needed when working with repeat " reduced loads", my brass fired w/ full-tilt "Benchmark", 8208, AA015 powders did not require FL sizing
( my gun, my loads. )

De-burr the flash holes, and cull-out any cases w/ over-sized flash holes.

Uniform the primer pockets.
Both my factory .35 Rem brass and wildcatted
.35 Rem necked-down to .224" calibre showed notable improvement in group sizes, just from uniforming the primer pockets of my .35 Rem brass.

Neck tension is a "biggy".
Both the .358 calibre 150gr "J"-words and the 195gr swaged .357" calibre
195 SPBT's I've shot; shot best when I used a .004 under-factory-spec
Lee collet NS die mandrel. I'm not sure what might be possible neck tension wise, when you work w/ your bullets/ loads ?

Trim brass to not-longer-than 1.920" case oal, max... and keep them at that measurement for all future range work.

Worked/works for ME !

With regards,
357Mag

[35remington]

Pardon my skepticism, but I've yet to hear of, touch, or shoot a Marlin that responded to primer pocket uniforming or flash hole deburring.

It's a levergun with a tube hanging off the end. It opens its groups as the barrel warms due to being attached to a cold magazine tube. Even if it's a half magazine tube. It's a good hunting gun, not a tackdriving bench rifle. That's okay as it does not make it one bit less than it is.. Just pointing out facts here.

Find a Marlin 35 Remington that honestly groups in the 0.2's (as in two tenths of an inch at 100 yards) for multiple five shot groups, or even three shot groups at 100 yards and you'll find Yeti, Sasquatch, and cold fusion on the very same day. It's a mass produced rifle with a relatively sloppy chamber and generous neck clearance already. Uniforming the case necks is wasted effort; in such instances neck clearance is increased which is not a good thing.

Sorry to be such a curmudgeon. It's just that realism needs to be applied here. Again, it's not a rifle that lends itself to such things, and I don't advocate trying things of such a nature.

Back to reality and the OP:

Exactly what charge weights of 3031 are you using? Is the rifle allowed to cool completely before a second group of identical cartridges is fired? How many shots in each group?

[Lefty SRH]

Charges with 3031, seems like I started with 33.0 and went all the way to 37.5gr. I've had to trim my brass about .010" shorter than the minimum for chambering issues. I think this rifle has a short throat.
The barrel was cooled when second round of identical charges were fired.

[rhbrink]

Pay particular attention to how you are handling the rifle on the rest that you are using try to keep it as uniform as possible. Load one round at a time and fire I find that a full tube does have a effect on accuracy form the bench offhand and hunting not so much. Another thing to do is to keep the front rest very close to the action that seems to help on some lever guns. And I would bet that a larger sized boolit will help a great deal at least a .359 and the .360 just might be the best. I just neck size as suggested above and use just enough crimp the safely hold the boolit in the magazine. It would probably be a good idea the get a Lyman M die the help ease the neck tension on the cast boolits. Lube can make a difference.

RB

[Lefty SRH]

I have and use an M-die. I will order a neck sizing die. How much neck tension do I need on the boolit when I seat it? I'm concerned with accidentally sizing down as it is seated. Off hand I can't remember the size of the expander plug on the M-die but .357 comes to mind. I'll double check when I get back home this evening. I have been roll crimping in the crimp groove. Do I need to change my crimp?

[Lefty SRH]

I think my lube is fine and adequate. I see a small smudge on the crown.

[6pt-sika]

Pardon my skepticism, but I've yet to hear of, touch, or shoot a Marlin that responded to primer pocket uniforming or flash hole deburring.

It's a levergun with a tube hanging off the end. It opens its groups as the barrel warms due to being attached to a cold magazine tube. Even if it's a half magazine tube. It's a good hunting gun, not a tackdriving bench rifle. That's okay as it does not make it one bit less than it is.. Just pointing out facts here.

Find a Marlin 35 Remington that honestly groups in the 0.2's (as in two tenths of an inch at 100 yards) for multiple five shot groups, or even three shot groups at 100 yards and you'll find Yeti, Sasquatch, and cold fusion on the very same day. It's a mass produced rifle with a relatively sloppy chamber and generous neck clearance already. Uniforming the case necks is wasted effort; in such instances neck clearance is increased which is not a good thing.

Sorry to be such a curmudgeon. It's just that realism needs to be applied here. Again, it's not a rifle that lends itself to such things, and I don't advocate trying things of such a nature.



I tend to agree with what you say !

Over the years I've messed with well over 100 Marlin lever actions in variouse cartridges . And while I will say that SUB MOA can be attained for 3 shots at 100 yards fairly regularly .2" is over the top a bit . And actually for me the biggest hindrance is the Marlin trigger . Even after changing the spring , stoning etc you don't have a 1/4 MOA trigger by any stretch .

But on the other hand if a person likes doing all that case prepe etc I am all for them . But it isn't something I have any intention of doing .

I will say I agree with him about shooting his 336XLR with jacketed and after shooting a bit and cleaning well the groups start shrinking . But thats with any factory produced stainless barreled gun .

[hornsurgeon]

fat boolits are the key with any microgoove marlin. i use the noe copy of the ranch dog boolit. i think the number is 360190. the ranch dog designs are hard to beat in marlins. i found a heavy charge of 3031 gave me near MOA groups. i personally have found that the marlins like fat boolits and heavy loads. ive had great luck with 30-30, 35 rem, and 45/70 with this type of combination.

[Lefty SRH]

fat boolits are the key with any microgoove marlin. i use the noe copy of the ranch dog boolit. i think the number is 360190. the ranch dog designs are hard to beat in marlins. i found a heavy charge of 3031 gave me near MOA groups. i personally have found that the marlins like fat boolits and heavy loads. ive had great luck with 30-30, 35 rem, and 45/70 with this type of combination.

FAT boolits meaning sized large? I have ordered a RCBS 35-200 FN mold.

[35remington]

Lefty, following up on this further, can you tell me the diameter of the bore riding nose on these bullets, both at the mould part line and 90 degrees to it? If the bore riding nose isn't riding the bore very well accuracy may well be problematic.

Microgroove or conventional?

How's the weight variation of these bullets? If someone else is casting them for you the quality is a wild card until investigated. I look at my bullets under 5X magnification to catch the rounded bands and other imperfections that make a bullet out of balance. A glance with my 47 year old eyes tends to miss such things now that my vision is starting to change. Can't see close up like I used to, so the magnifying glass is a necessary crutch.

Cooled barrel as in absolutely completely cooled between each three shot group, every time? No residual heat at all? A warm barrel incompletely cooled means you're verifying the gun goes bang rather than testing accuracy......this is particularly relevant to a tube fed levergun, even the half magazines.

You probably know that already, so forgive me if I'm covering too much as I don't know all the details of your accuracy testing.

[singleshot]

Yes the Marlin 336 has a very short throat, try non-existent. That's why Ranchdog developed boolits specifically for this rifle. I'm shooting the Ranch Dog 190 TL though mine with "great" results. I can shoot a string of 6 followed by a string of 6 at a 200-meter 10-inch gong, and hit it every time no matter how fast I shoot now that I've found loads it likes. That's a dead elk at 150 meters every time. I consider that completely satisfactory.

What is your definition of a "group." Would 5 MOA suffice? 3 MOA? Are you looking for .2 MOA?

I've never used the RCBS boolit you mention, but I've seen nothing but good reports.

I've had great results with H4895, H4198, and IMR 4227 with the RD boolit.

If you've got tight spots in the bore, that may explain some things...

[357Mag]

35Rem, 6Pt and associates -

Howdy !

I sure DO want to respond to your thoughtful comments, but I do not want to hijack THIS post.

Should I start a new thread ( post ), or... would you guys simply accept info in the form of a " PM " ?

Please let me know.

With regards,
357Mag

[357Mag]

35Rem, 6Pt and associates -

Howdy !

I sure DO want to respond to your thoughtful comments, but I do not want to hijack THIS post.

Should I start a new thread ( post ), or... would you guys simply accept info in the form of a " PM " ?

Please let me know.

With regards,
357Mag

[Lefty SRH]

35Rem, 6Pt and associates -

Howdy !

I sure DO want to respond to your thoughtful comments, but I do not want to hijack THIS post.

Should I start a new thread ( post ), or... would you guys simply accept info in the form of a " PM " ?

Please let me know.

With regards,
357Mag

Whether you start a new thread or do PMs, please include me. I'd like to hear what you have to offer.

[35remington]

357, it doesn't matter to me how you want to proceed. However you do it is fine. I will say, however, that unless I am there, in person, to witness such a miraculous transformation in accuracy no amount of information you have is going to convince me over the internet because these claims are just too easy to "make up."

There's too many other issues with the rifles that are limiting for this to take effect.

As in the phrase, "measuring with micrometers and cutting with axes."

One of the very least sensitive rifles to neck turning, primer pocket uniforming, and flash hole deburring is a Marlin lever action. Had you a bench rest rifle such minutiae might confer an improvement in group sizes measured in a few tenths or maybe hundredths of an inch. With a tube magazine lever action it will be lost in the noise of the other limitations of the rifle, which is a multitude of shortcomings.

Such things won't turn a bushel basket sized group with a cast bullet into a sudden extremely sub MOA shooter. Being conscious of what matters with this particular issue is the whole point.

And yeah, I've tried especially anal retentive things of this sort......and it didn't matter. A bit. A rifle with a slow, heavy hammer fall, largish chamber, and a barrel tied to a cold tube has too many other things that need work.

[FergusonTO35]

Lefty, you might want to try a different powder before you do anything else. Please pardon my potential ignorance but 3031 is usually not a go-to powder for cast boolits. It seems that H4895 and Accurate 5744 come up alot.

[northmn]

Generally I have had good luck with 3031. Also with Re7 and 4198, and 4759. I also shoot a lot of as cast bullets in my rifles. I use Lee liquid Alox and hand lube the gooves. My old 35 Remington would start to walk after the first shot until I lossened up the forearm fit.

DP

[Lefty SRH]

Well I got my RCBS 35-200 mold, .359", and .360" sizing dies. I have some loaded that are .359" with the same powder, same charges, and with a recommended rifle alloy. One thing though, my mold drops them at 218gr with lube and a GC, thats a good bit more than what the donated boolits I have weigh. Oh well, I hope they shoot GOOOOOD!

[uscra112]

Any possibility the O.P. just has a loose scope?

[Lefty SRH]

Any possibility the O.P. just has a loose scope?

Nope, I learned that lesson years ago. I've checked my scope, its not loose.

I'll test the new loads friday.

[calaverasslim]

Pardon my skepticism, but I've yet to hear of, touch, or shoot a Marlin that responded to primer pocket uniforming or flash hole deburring.

It's a levergun with a tube hanging off the end. It opens its groups as the barrel warms due to being attached to a cold magazine tube. Even if it's a half magazine tube. It's a good hunting gun, not a tackdriving bench rifle. That's okay as it does not make it one bit less than it is.. Just pointing out facts here.

Find a Marlin 35 Remington that honestly groups in the 0.2's (as in two tenths of an inch at 100 yards) for multiple five shot groups, or even three shot groups at 100 yards and you'll find Yeti, Sasquatch, and cold fusion on the very same day. It's a mass produced rifle with a relatively sloppy chamber and generous neck clearance already. Uniforming the case necks is wasted effort; in such instances neck clearance is increased which is not a good thing.

Sorry to be such a curmudgeon. It's just that realism needs to be applied here. Again, it's not a rifle that lends itself to such things, and I don't advocate trying things of such a nature.

Back to reality and the OP:

Exactly what charge weights of 3031 are you using? Is the rifle allowed to cool completely before a second group of identical cartridges is fired? How many shots in each group?


I'm glad you said this. Much better stated than I could. I shoot the Rem. Core-lokt 200gr in my 35 Rem in front of IMR 4064 powder. If I get about 1.5 at 100 yds I count it a great day. I keep all hunting shots under 150 yds and normally get 1 shot stops.

I am 70 years young, blind in one eye and cain't see out the other and I don't even try benchrest shooting.

[Lefty SRH]

UPDATE!!!!!
Well, she's starting to group quite well. I changed a few things and found out something that was causing problems with another rifle. Apparently I don't know how to PROPERLY use a front bench rest and rear bench bag. I had a known accurate load for another rifle (.308 Savage) and it would NOT group off the rest to save its life. I then shot the same load off of sand bags and me supporting the butt of the rifle. I put 7rds inside an 1 1/4".
BUT back to the .35 remington. This time I used my new mold, some rifle specific alloy, sized the boolits BIGGER (.359") and loaded the same charges as before, 36.0gr thru 37.5gr of IMR 3031. The 36.0gr and the 37.5gr charges did the best with the 37.5 groupiong the tightest at just over MOA for 5 shots. My next thing will be to only neck size my brass and I'm going to beagle my mold so I can hopefully get a sized boolit to .360" with the same powder charges. From here on out I'll be shooting off front sand bags, this was a lot more stable than the front bench style rest I have.
Right now I feel confident enought o go hunt with the rifle the way it is and make an accurate shot rather than wondering where I will hit.

I am also considering trying some LeverEvolution powder with my boolit before I pull the scope off my rifle permanently. You know, just for grins and giggles.

[robroy]

What is your as cast diameter now? If you're sizing to 359 maybe you don't need to Beagle the mold. Given the good results of the last rounds it might be time to call it good.

[rhbrink]

:drinks:Great, glad to see things are starting to work out for you!!!!

Richard

[Lefty SRH]

What is your as cast diameter now? If you're sizing to 359 maybe you don't need to Beagle the mold. Given the good results of the last rounds it might be time to call it good.

Micrometer on the part line they were .360" and 90 degrees they were .359". But I got some others (roughly the other half as in count) were only .3585" at the part line. That kind leads me to believe the cavities are NOT the same. So I'll try and segregate the boolits ( the best I can) next time whem they are dropped.

The best group, 37.5gr 3031, measured 1.010" center to center now that I measure it with calipers. I'm quite pleased. Hopefully whenI remove the scope and install permanent iron peep sights the group doesn't go much over 2" at 100yds.

[thebigmac]

35 rem. Hey Guys; How's chances of one, or a few of you sending me 4-5 cast boolits.
Need to buy a mould & don't know which one.....Thanks a bunch.....bigmac

[hornsurgeon]

If its for a marlin, the best will be a ranch dog or a copy. Otherwise the rcbs is good as well.

[dualsport]

If you think you may want a Ranch Dog better hurry. He's closing the doors. I wouldn't sell my RD molds for twice what I paid. My 336 .35 Rem. project was the easiest ever. Load the RD boolit(I got pb and gc) over anything sane and go shoot. 2 moa hasn't been a problem, scoped. Plenty good enough for what it is. My Marlin was worked over before I got it, mag tube cut back to forend, looks funny but it's ok by me. It's going hunting next month wearing peeps.

[tenx]

wanted to pass along something about marlin's barrels in the xlr. allways wanted a 35 marlin and some time back zanders sporting goods had a dozen or so 336 xlr stainless laminated 35 remington rifles for just over $400 each. ordered one and put it in the safe, too many things going on at the time. finally got around to looking at it and the barrel was a microgroove barrel. thought all of the xlr's had conventional ballard rifling. called remington and spoke with them, indeed some of the first xlr's were rifled with microgroove rigling. i decided to keep it as is, got a new lyman 215 gr rn mold but instead went with the c-h 4d swaging dies and am sizing down 9mm casingsfor jackets, using as cast 30 carbine bullets (lyman 311410) as cores and putting a cannulure on with a c-h tool. makes a neat 195-197 gr (depends on brand of brass) soft point. finally found a good use for the range pick-up glockamatic brass.

[Lefty SRH]

35 rem. Hey Guys; How's chances of one, or a few of you sending me 4-5 cast boolits.
Need to buy a mould & don't know which one.....Thanks a bunch.....bigmac

I can, its been done to me a couple times so I'd be happy to send you a few. PM me your address. Do you have a way to size/lube them?

[Lefty SRH]

I beagled my 1st mold (aluminum tape & RCBS 35-200) last night and it gave me GREAT reuslts. The part line grew just a smidge, .359"-.3595" and 90 degrees grew up to .360". thats what I was looking for. Sometimes a few boolits would have some slight finning but nothing a finger nail wouldn't take care of. I kept about 40 throws worth of boolits segregated. After being beagled they seemed to be more consistant in size with each other. They are still dropping heavy but that doesn't bother me at all. Hope to get some more loaded and try out again this friday.

[Lefty SRH]

Is this the RD mold you are talking about? The boolit looks nothing like I thought it would.

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_5_18&products_id=28

[Lefty SRH]

Will that said RD mold work for a Ruger .357 revolver boolit? That would be dual purpose for me!

Damn, did I just high jack my own thread?

[rhbrink]

I have shot the Ranchdog in my .357 just seat the boolit where you want it and crimp the case. Maybe not the best thing in the world to do but it does work and shot well enough out of a Smith 686. I wasn't using real hard boolits more like 50/50 wheelweights and pure lead and the crimp held with some moderate to heavy loads.

RB

[hornsurgeon]

Will that said RD mold work for a Ruger .357 revolver boolit? That would be dual purpose for me!

Damn, did I just high jack my own thread?

with that boolit crimped in the front crimp groove, it wont work with most revolvers. however, it will in rugers. infact my gp100 absolutely loves it, and it does ok in my blackhawk as well. this is the boolit that i carry in the woods in my 357's. i havent taken anything with it yet though. a heavy charge of h110 will get you 1250 fps or more without any pressure issues in a ruger.

[Lefty SRH]

I think I have reached the peak of accuracy with my 336 .35 Rem. Unless their are some trips I can do to the barrel/stock bands that would trim off a little more. I shot it yesterday with a full magazine and really noticed some fliers when the magazine full and empty. It grouped the best with about 3-4 maybe in the magazine.
Are there any tricks to tuning the barrel/magazine bands that may make the rifle more accurate or atleast make it more consistant when the mag is either emtpy or full?

[robroy]

Go to Paco Kelly's site at the link below. Lots of info on "tuning" a marlin lever gun


http://www.leverguns.com/articles/Default.htm