Point Of Aim vs Point of Impact...

[BCB]

I once say a diagram of a circle or maybe it was a regular piece of paper that showed impact areas of boolits fired from handguns if the handgun was zeroed for the center of the paper…

If a boolit hit any place, with consistency, other than the point of aim, it meant a person was holding the handgun too tight or too loose or tilted or whatever to allow the boolit to hit other than point of aim…

Anyone familiar with that diagram and know where one might find it to see what my problem is…

High and to the right when shooting off hand…

Should have printed that dang diagram years ago…

Thanks…BCB

[44man]

I once say a diagram of a circle or maybe it was a regular piece of paper that showed impact areas of boolits fired from handguns if the handgun was zeroed for the center of the paper…

If a boolit hit any place, with consistency, other than the point of aim, it meant a person was holding the handgun too tight or too loose or tilted or whatever to allow the boolit to hit other than point of aim…

Anyone familiar with that diagram and know where one might find it to see what my problem is…

High and to the right when shooting off hand…

Should have printed that dang diagram years ago…

Thanks…BCB
You do not have a problem! Handguns are recoil dependent and shooting them different ways will mean a POI change. Torque comes into play too depending on twist direction.
So will the boolit, weight, velocity and powder.
That is why all of us like adjustable sights. [smilie=s:

[subsonic]

Google "handgun diagnostic target".

There are a bunch you can download and print as needed.

I have found that these are not necessarily "perfect". Most problems are related to your trigger finger..... and how straight you pull back and whether or not your fingernail is perpendicular to the trigger face or not during the bullet exit.

Make sure that it's not just that the gun shoots high and right on it's own.

[subsonic]

And 44man has a point as well, especially if we are talking more recoil than .38spl or .45 auto.

[subsonic]

The diagnostic targets are most useful for people who are not very experienced, or have a real bad habbit, shooting up close, like 7 to 10yds. At 25yds.... they are about useless.

[BCB]

Thanks...

I am shooting at 20-25 yards...

I know the handgun is sighted-in at that distance or close to it. Regardless, it is centered when shot from sandbags...

I suppose shooting offhand is part of the problem when the handgun was previously sighted in on sandbags...

Not a big deal as hitting a 6" circle at 25 yards offhand is pretty dang good for me...
(I have yet to achieve the skill needed to hit targets that size at 100 yards offhand--I hear it can be done though!)...

BCB

[44man]

Thanks...

I am shooting at 20-25 yards...

I know the handgun is sighted-in at that distance or close to it. Regardless, it is centered when shot from sandbags...

I suppose shooting offhand is part of the problem when the handgun was previously sighted in on sandbags...

Not a big deal as hitting a 6" circle at 25 yards offhand is pretty dang good for me...
(I have yet to achieve the skill needed to hit targets that size at 100 yards offhand--I hear it can be done though!)...

BCB
You are totally normal. VERY FEW GUNS SHOOT TO THE SAME POI OFF HAND. It takes years and years to duplicate the rest.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

44 Man pretty much summed it up; there are several factors which will bear upon the POA AND POI and they have to be studied and consistently observed. A good coach helps a lot. Most important is constant and never-ending practice. There are no real short-cuts to the drill. It is a given to any skill activity be it music, golf, billiards, chess, etc. To get sharp and stay sharp you have to stay with it all the time. Age doesn't help. LLS

[KYCaster]

I think this is what you're looking for..........

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/training.htm


I've found it useful on a few occasions.

Jerry

[Char-Gar]

I have seen that diagram several times over the years and never thought much of it.

There is a right way and a wrong way to grip a hangun. There is a right way and wrong way to press the trigger. There is a right way and wrong way to see the sight picture. There is a right way and wrong way to control your breathing.

Learn to do everything the right way and if the bullet doesn't go where it should, the pistol is not sighted properly for you. Different folks can pick up the same handgun, and do all the things right, and the point of impact will most likely be different.

A rest can help to get things close, but the final adjustments must be done in the position it will be fired in the field. Seldom will a rested pistol have the same point of impact as the same pistol hand held.

[**oneshot**]

As 44man said, very hard to shoot same off hand as off the bench.

[BCB]

I have seen that diagram several times over the years and never thought much of it.

There is a right way and a wrong way to grip a hangun. There is a right way and wrong way to press the trigger. There is a right way and wrong way to see the sight picture. There is a right way and wrong way to control your breathing.

Learn to do everything the right way and if the bullet doesn't go where it should, the pistol is not sighted properly for you. Different folks can pick up the same handgun, and do all the things right, and the point of impact will most likely be different.

A rest can help to get things close, but the final adjustments must be done in the position it will be fired in the field. Seldom will a rested pistol have the same point of impact as the same pistol hand held.

I agree, but since I don't have a professional handgun instructor at my beckoning, I am trying to read and use some diagrams to help...

I think the links have been helpful...

I have been reloading and shooting a good many years, but I just finally thought about doing some sort-of-serious offhand shooting with a few revolvers I have...

Retired now and got the time...

BCB

[44MAG#1]

If you cannot group well when shooting off hand then sighting in a handgun is going to be pretty difficult.
As long as your shoots a well on the paper just practice and try to group tighter through practice. When you can produce much smaller groups offhand then you should worry about sighting in the gun. Until then you are fooling yourself.
6 inches at 25 is actually good for beginners but is pretty poor for someone that has many rounds downrange.
Everyone wants to run before walking. I would say just about everyone on here started out grouping pretty poorly at 25 yards offhand (especially with guns of notable recoil).
Trigger control is the most important thing. You may be able to stand all day long and just hold perfect sight alignment with an unloaded gun but if your finger goes crazy on operating the trigger when shooting you will not shoot well.
Most of my stupid shooting comes from "excited trigger finger" syndrome.
I am grossly imperfect.

[BCB]

I actually keep them all in a 6" circle at 25 yards, so the group is generally between 4" and 5"...

I can do dang near as well shooting double action with the Security-Six in 357 Magnum...

It is a very nice handgun to shoot and was made during the first couple of years of production of that model. It has been shot extensively--but maybe not too seriously--except from sandbags...

A two-hand grip is what I am using presently...

[Char-Gar]

I agree, but since I don't have a professional handgun instructor at my beckoning, I am trying to read and use some diagrams to help...

I think the links have been helpful...

I have been reloading and shooting a good many years, but I just finally thought about doing some sort-of-serious offhand shooting with a few revolvers I have...

Retired now and got the time...

BCB

Nobody needs a professional handun instructor. The basic can be learned in 30 minutes from reading a basic article or booklet on the subject. A half of dozen range sessions will put that information to work for you. A few more months of practice and you will be an off hand pistol shooter. From there on, it is up to your mind, eyes, nervous and muscle systems.

Learning to shoot a handgun off hands isn't as difficult as some folks make it out it be. It is certainly far easier than learning how to ride a bicycle or type.

[44man]

HEE HEE, after years I still type with one finger! :mrgreen:
Anyone that types at the speed of light without looking at the keyboard is brain dead! [smilie=w:

[44MAG#1]

"Nobody needs a professional handun instructor. The basic can be learned in 30 minutes from reading a basic article or booklet on the subject. A half of dozen range sessions will put that information to work for you. A few more months of practice and you will be an off hand pistol shooter. From there on, it is up to your mind, eyes, nervous and muscle systems.

Learning to shoot a handgun off hands isn't as difficult as some folks make it out it be. It is certainly far easier than learning how to ride a bicycle or type"

Just like saying all one has to do to play the piano is hit the right keys at the right time. While there are self -taught pianists they are far and few inbetween if they are real good.
Shooting is the same way. A good coach (not necessarily a "professional") would be a help because when one learns a bad habit it is difficult to correct it on one own because it is hard to critique oneself because of the lofty opionions we have ourselves.
We have a piano and neither my wife or i can play it.
Also while there are some that takes to a handgun like a duck to water and can shoot the eyes out of a rabbit at 100 yards on a flat out run, after shooting for a short period of time, why don't we see more of these at the shooting range? Maybe they don't want to make the rest of us feel bad.

[Char-Gar]

Shooting a handgun is much, much easier than playing any musical instrument. Not a valid comparison at all.

It would always be helpful to have somebody to watch you and tell you what your are doing wrong. But need a professional..nope!

The only "coaching" I had was by Bill Jordon one afternoon on the banks of the Rio Grande River and it was indeed helpful. I did shoot Bullsye competition for years and the shooters were generous helping each other. Even some of the seasoned shooters could be helped by the input of others.

Unless somebody has physical limitations, anybody can become a competent pistol shot. A competent pistol shot can become a good pistol shot with practice and attention to detail. To move above that, a guy or gal needs to be born with certain skills. Bill Jordon had them, I did not.

Like most sports, to move beyond the hobby level it is a head game.

[44MAG#1]

"The only "coaching" I had was by Bill Jordon one afternoon on the banks of the Rio Grande River and it was indeed helpful. I did shoot Bullsye competition for years and the shooters were generous helping each other. Even some of the seasoned shooters could be helped by the input of others. "
So like it was said someone to help is a valued thing, Not necessary but helpful.
BCB used the word "professional" I guess in an attempt to give a reason for not asking anyone for some help maybe? If some one is a better shot then oneself that person is capable of helping until a better shot than that someone is found.
Still it is up to him as you said. If he wants to wing it himself then more power to him. I am sure he will become a tremendous pistol shot.

[felix]

Some folks are born to teach, some others are born to shoot. Seldom are they the same folks. Keep in mind the old adage: Those who can do are those who do; those who can't (or won't), teach. That's why it is pure magic for one person to have the proper attributes and be willing and able to teach YOU. ... felix

[Char-Gar]

Felix..Here is how I heard that;

"Those who can do; those that don't (or won't) teach and those that can't critize."

[375RUGER]

POA and POI is a little subjective to the person holding the gun. I personally don't have a problem with a different POI whether off hand or on bags, I sight in on bags.
I can develop loads for my wifes .357 and the gun shoots high for me on bags or off hand. She hits POA with the same loads. I put slim grips on this revolver for her, while I shoot nice groups with it, she shoots those groups to POA, and I know she is using a proper sight picture.

You might try setting up a video camera on a tripod and video yourself from different angles as you shoot. Just a way to go back and analyze what you are doing. Or you can have an experienced friend watch you shoot and give analysis.

[44MAG#1]

"Some folks are born to teach".
True
"some others are born to shoot".
True also but there are teachers that can shoot.
"Seldom are they the same folks".
That may be true.
"Those who can do are those who do; those who can't (or won't), teach. That's why it is pure magic for one person to have the proper attributes and be willing and able to teach YOU. ... felix ".
The "proper attitudes" needs to be on both sides. It is difficult to teach someone that has an inflated ego and is full of himself. I have had a couple as he questions on shooting and then when one tries to help they have this "this guy must be crazy look" on their face. Especially when one tells them that one doesn't have to hold perfectly still to be able to group well shooting offhand. Most rifle shooters are that way when they take up the offhand pistol shooting.
So attitude is important on both sides. I have a couple buddies that have asked me questions on shooting offhand but they just don't get it because it just doesn't jive with their rifle shooting from rests. Also they have killed many deer with their rifle and would like to take up handgun hunting but their ego just won't let them listen on learning to shoot even though they ask.
Again there is more than ONE attitude involved not just the teachers.

[44MAG#1]

Who critisized who?

[Char-Gar]

Nobody critisized anybody. Just filling in a saying the way I heard it.

[felix]

Yep, all communication is bidirectional by definition. Pissing into the wind otherwise. Therefore, the statement of pure magic stands. SALESMANSHIP!!! ... felix

[EDK]

HEE HEE, after years I still type with one finger! :mrgreen:
Anyone that types at the speed of light without looking at the keyboard is brain dead! [smilie=w:

It's called TOUCH TYPING...I had it in high school in 1963...typed 140 words per minute and FLUNKED because I watched my fingers on the keyboard and got caught by the old maid school teacher who taught the class. That was the rule back then, soo.......

Point of aim and point of impact is an interesting way to burn up a lot of ammo. A small change in powder charge or bullet weight can get interesting AND changing the grips or YOUR GRIP on the gun even more so. A generic load for the dozen 44 magnum VAQUERO I have access to will probably never be attained. Some folks think the 357 is really touchy about grip or ammo changes.

:redneck: :cbpour: :guntootsmiley:

[canyon-ghost]

Consider the consistence of your ammunition. If the gun hits a certain size group at 25 yards from sandbags then, try to shoot that group. It's going to be more difficult, granted, but you can shoot something similar by concentrating on putting the sights centered on the bullseye. Don't let your eye wander or your sights.
Don't try it just once, take 3 targets with you and do it for a few weekends in a row, or more often if you can. When you can get a group that is smaller and wish to try it, get a small target out at 50 yards. Make the whole challenge gradually harder and harder but, don't give up on any phase of it. It isn't hard to shoot to 100 meters if you're already doing it all the time.

It really takes serious study.

[44man]

Consider the consistence of your ammunition. If the gun hits a certain size group at 25 yards from sandbags then, try to shoot that group. It's going to be more difficult, granted, but you can shoot something similar by concentrating on putting the sights centered on the bullseye. Don't let your eye wander or your sights.
Don't try it just once, take 3 targets with you and do it for a few weekends in a row, or more often if you can. When you can get a group that is smaller and wish to try it, get a small target out at 50 yards. Make the whole challenge gradually harder and harder but, don't give up on any phase of it. It isn't hard to shoot to 100 meters if you're already doing it all the time.

It really takes serious study.
Now you forget something! As we practice and years go by like a flash, we start to wobble and shake so bad, the target is actually behind us at times! :kidding:
In just a year I feel like I have fallen off the cliff. I could not pull the bow I hunted with last year.

[BCB]

Well, I have begun the process of attempting to be a better “off-hand” shooter with my revolvers…

Starting with the Security-Six 357 Magnum. I have many reloads that work well, but I have decided on one for consistency…

I would have sought the help of other handgun shooters, but in all honesty, I just don’t know any in my area. I am sure there are many, but most of my shooting over the past 40+ years has been with family. No revolver shooters there…

Regardless, I am planning on shooting a dozen or so rounds every time I go to my shooting range—several times per week…

But, as 44man says, age will play a bit of a role in how good I get. I reached my 6th decade today. I know there are many on here older and many on here younger. So, we shall see what we shall see as far as how good I get…

100 yards is out of the questions as I have one good eye. It is my left eye and I shoot right-handed—so there is a bit of a problem right off the bat…

If I can constantly hit my groundhog-sized silhouette at 40 yards—I will be more than happy…

Thanks for all of the tips and advice and suggestions…

BCB