357 Max reamer too deep

[Milsurp Junkie]

I bought a cheap 357 Handi-rifle locally. The prior owner used a 357 max reamer on it and cut it a hair too deep. He stated that it does not always fire the primer (1 out of 10 does not fire, but usually fires the second time around). I was wondering if it would be possible to jb-weld or soft solder a bushing to bring the head space to where it needs to be to fire reliably. Otherwise, I would have to find brass that has thicker than normal rims, or possibly seat the prime slightly high (which does not sound great.).

Any ideas on how to tackle this one? I am only out $100 for it, so I could just send it to H&R and get a new 357 barrel on it, along with a 12 gauge as well.

[725]

I suppose you could hang the boolit out to engage the rifling to headspace instead of the rim, but I'd just get a new .357 barrel and a 12 ga.

[williamwaco]

I suppose you could hang the boolit out to engage the rifling to headspace instead of the rim, but I'd just get a new .357 barrel and a 12 ga.

Ditto.

Life is too short to fool around with cobbled up ammo.


.

[Bent Ramrod]

I turned a washer out of shim stock, filed away part of it to clear the extractor and soldered it into the rim seat of an old H&A .38-55 shotgun which was probably chambered for folded-head cases. Solved the headspace problem pretty handily.

If the barrel assembly can stand the heat, your Handi-Rifle could probably be treated the same way. You could even glue the washer in with Loc-Tite. However, the leade would still be a little farther out than it should be so accuracy might be subpar without seating the bullets out.

[rockrat]

I would think a bushing, either JB'd in or use one of the high strength loctites. Then re-cut the rim recess. Shouldn't be too hard a job.

Its what I would do.

[badgeredd]

If it were mine, I'd make up a shim as mentioned above, solder in place (with a high strength solder) and then carefully file out the extractor slot. If your careful and take your time the fix will be permanent and never cause you a problem.

Edd

[dragonrider]

"I suppose you could hang the boolit out to engage the rifling to headspace instead of the rim"
I would give that a try but I can't say it would be completely reliable. Best to get the new barrel.
Now just as a question of possibility, could the barrel be set back by removing and replacing the barrel lug??? Certainly not economicaly feasable but is it possible??? I don't have a handi, do have a TCR-87, not sure of how alike they are.

[wgr]

i would make a 35rem out of it

[Hamish]

"i would make a 35rem out of it"

That's a smaht man there youngstah, mmmmm-hmm.

[Goatwhiskers]

No way to set the barrel back. Pays to be an old gunsmith, the idea of soldering in a steel ring, then recutting the rim seat is an old trick we used to use to correct headspace in shotguns (particularly singles) when it was still worth the money to fix one that was out of whack. Sometimes it was necessary to cut the original seat a little deeper, then do the repair. Good luck with it, the Handi in .357Max is a great little gun as long as it's not on the SB-1 frame and doesn't have the large firing pin. Here endeth the lesson. GW

Edit: by the way your throat is not enough longer to make any difference at all. GW

[Jeff Michel]

No way to set the barrel back. Pays to be an old gunsmith, the idea of soldering in a steel ring, then recutting the rim seat is an old trick we used to use to correct headspace in shotguns (particularly singles) when it was still worth the money to fix one that was out of whack. Sometimes it was necessary to cut the original seat a little deeper, then do the repair. Good luck with it, the Handi in .357Max is a great little gun as long as it's not on the SB-1 frame and doesn't have the large firing pin. Here endeth the lesson. GW

Edit: by the way your throat is not enough longer to make any difference at all. GW

Goat whiskers is correct, replacing rims in shotguns saved a bunch from the scrap heap in my shop. The only thing I would be concerned would be the chamber pressures involved, 12gauge shotguns run 8500 to 12,500 CUP, I'm nowhere near any data, but I'd be confident that you would be crowding 30,000 to 35,000. Most soft solders 4% silver might have a shear/tensile strength sufficient to hold but you will have to remove considerable metal to have adequate bearing surface, Also the steel you use for your replacement chamber ring is a consideration. I'd silver braze it if repair was my only option, but if you are not familiar with soldering, your going to be way ahead getting a new set of barrels from H&R

[Milsurp Junkie]

It is on a SB1 action. I need to double check the firing pin size. I have an SB2 action, but it is in stainless.

[jhrosier]

I would consider just building up the face of the extractor to maintain headspace.
It really won't take too much to hold the case closer to the breechface.
When revolver cylinders are milled for moon clips, only a small area of the original chamber is kept to allow firing without the moon clips.
The extractor should be easy to work on, possibly even without removing it.

Jack

[Goatwhiskers]

The SB-1 receiver is cast iron, not steel as some think. I would at least be very careful to use only mild loads as the working pressure with most pistol powders can be in the 40,000 range according to SAAMI. I won't go into my loads over the 'net, but I use fairly stiff charges of 1680 with my bullet seated kinda far out and have no pressure problems. If you get this barrel repaired I would advise fitting it to your SB-2 frame. Goat

[John Taylor]

The bolt thrust of a modern 12 gauge is a little over 5,000 pounds. The bolt thrust of the 357 max is a little under 5,000 pounds so it should be safe on the SB-1 as long as the firing pin is not the old large type. I would not depend on Loctite or epoxy for this repair. I have never had much luck with epoxy holding and loctite would need a larger area to maintain it's hold. Welding would create a hard spot in the barrel and probably ruin a good chamber reamer trying to clean it up. Might be best to run the rim cut a little deeper, make a bushing and use a good lead free solder ( I use Brownells force 44). If you are careful with the flux you might get by without having to reblue.

[Goatwhiskers]

Re: the effect of flux on blued areas. Paint a coat of White-Out (remember typewriters?) on the area you want to protect, end of problem. Buff it off when you're thru. GW

[Milsurp Junkie]

I was considering soft solder : 96.5 %,Sn, 3% AG, and 0.5% Cu. It is soft, but should hold. What would be the best material to make the bushing out of? Steel, or brass? Brass, it would be easy to use a 38 special cartridge and lathe/file it down prior to soldering it.

[Goatwhiskers]

Use Hi-Force 44, either the regular or hi-temp versions from Brownells. Use steel, in essence you're soldering a washer, not a bushing into the rim recess, then you have to recut the recess to create the correct headspace. GW

[Milsurp Junkie]

Looking it over, there does not seem to be much difference between the lead free 96.5 %,Sn, 3% AG, and 0.5% Cu solder that I have gobs of, and the Hi-Force 44. Both have similar characteristics.

[nanuk]

i would make a 35rem out of it

I'm not sure it is wise to do that on an SB1 frame...

[Milsurp Junkie]

I agree. I want to keep it at 357 max, especially on an SB1 frame. I have an SB2 frame, but it is stainless, and I am not sure how a blued barrel would look on a stainless frame.

[wgr]

I'm not sure it is wise to do that on an SB1 frame...

no it would not be i missed the sb1. sorry

[uscra112]

Just watch who you're getting load data from. Some of the .357 "Max" loads that are being touted on Mike Bellm's site (and others) are in the 50,000 range, according to Quickload. I'm beginning to regret having rechambered my Gen 1 Contender for the Max - it's too much for that frame. The loads I'm comfortable with could have been done just as well in the .357 Magnum case.

As an aside, the SAAMI reamer drawing for .357 Max specifies a pilot that is only .346 diameter, not the .350 diameter that is typical for rifle bores. Consequently many rechambering jobs are cut off center at the throat, and will never shoot well. This is even a problem, according to sources, with a lot of the T/C factory barrels. I caught this when I had my reamer made (by Dave Manson). It would be worth doing a chamber cast of yours, to see whether it's right or not. If it's off, any other work is good $$ thrown after bad.

[smoked turkey]

I don't want to hi-jack the current discussion but I have a question going back to the original post which stated "357 Max reamer too deep". I thought the purpose in using a reamer was to lengthen the chamber so as to allow the longer case to fire. I also thought the 38spl/357 mag/357 rem max all headspaced on the case rim. If so then why would using a reamer change the headspace? I ask this because I have considered doing this to a 357 mag I have in a break open rifle. This thread now has me wondering if I should. Thanks for answering a dumb question.

[Milsurp Junkie]

I think that some reamers also cut the rim as well. It would be nice if they had safe edges for the rim. Patent pending...

[Goatwhiskers]

The reamer that you get for rechambering you mag to max is the same one used for chambering a new barrel, it does the whole job. Very easy to not pay attention while cutting and cut your rim recess too deep, then you got troubles. I put a dab of layout fluid on the recess lip and stop when the reamer touches the color. GW

[smoked turkey]

Ah yes I can see where it would get a person in trouble if they weren't paying CLOSE attention. I showed my ignorance about this sort of thing because I thought the reamer just cut on the length side but I thought after I posted that it probably also cut at the top too. As Milsurp Junkie said it would be nice if the top didn't cut for those jobs that involved conversion from a 357 chamber to .357 max. I suppose if a "safe" reamer were available that had a non cutting rim even a cave man could do it.

[Whiterabbit]

on gbo they say the factory often shipps barrels with the rim recess cut too deep. so you might have been "screwed" from the factory. They (gbo) advises seating the bullet into the lands.

You cal also send the firing pin out farther. There is a happy medium. I myself have an SB1 with a 357 max barrel and have this exact issue. My only problem now is primer flow around the pin, also a very common problem. If the flow sticks the barrel, I pull the hammer back and fire again, and the action opens right up.

UScra, can you quickload something for me? I want to "check" one of the "internet" loads for pressure. Specifically, a 250 grain bullet with 19 grains of H110. How does that measure up on the pressure meter? Both cast and jacketed, if that info is needed.

Curious.

[45-70.gov]

paper shim under the extracter

can't hurt...easy to undo

[WilliamDahl]

paper shim under the extracter

can't hurt...easy to undo

Beer can aluminun, perhaps?

For that matter, maybe even a bit of fingernail polish painted into there... Black, of course...

[Goatwhiskers]

Rabbitt, there are 2 SB-1 frames, the most common has a large firing pin, which you have and is the cause of your problem. Been thinking about taking one of the junk frames in my shop and see if it would work to bush the pin. Just possibilities, don't know if it would be worth the trouble. GW

[Milsurp Junkie]

All awesome ideas, guys. I will take a look at it tonight and see what I can do. Thanks again!
All in all, not bad for a $100 gun

[uscra112]

Uscra, can you quickload something for me? I want to "check" one of the "internet" loads for pressure. Specifically, a 250 grain bullet with 19 grains of H110. How does that measure up on the pressure meter? Both cast and jacketed, if that info is needed. Curious.

Marginally safe, and very sensitive to seating depth. Using .400 seating depth it gives a bit over 40,000 psi. That's actually a skosh over the SAAMI pressure limit. And it's very possible that a 250 grain boolit can't be seated that far out. For comparison, in my Contender I can seat a 200 grain boolit only .070 shallower, and it's just into the lands in my chamber.

I'd be real cautious about that one. Just what I meant about some of the Max loads I see on the Web. Even in a strong rifle like a High Wall, or a Mauser bolt, I would not think of going much over 40,000. The brass ain't made for it.

This all reminds me of the heyday of the .22 Lovell. People were gaga over it in 1939, and Fred Ness was publishing loads in the American Rifleman that calculate to beyond 55,000 psi. On the old adage that more is better, and too much ain't enough, I guess. Case life was very short, and I don't doubt that a few shooters got a faceful of vaporized brass from time to time. They had few options. The next bigger .22 case in those days was the .219 Zipper, and after that the .220 Swift. There was no .222/.223 case in existence. In our day, we've got options. We don't have to load the Max to .35 Remington velocity, we can just chamber for .35 Remington, which loves 250 grain boolits. You can even make a rimmed .35 Rem out of Krag brass, BTW. So why bother hot-rodding the Max?

[Whiterabbit]

very cool. I just checked my load notes, I don't load 19 grains, I load 18 grains. did 18.4 and 19 also, and the groups started to open. zero pressure signs at 19, I wrote in my notes to maybe try more powder since the cases slide right out.

No need now. Thank you for double checking my work! :)

truly appreciated.

[nanuk]

with some of the long "Cone" leades, I wonder myself if a 250gr would seat...

what velocity are you getting/expecting?

I"d think anything over 1000fps is adequate for a big game load with a 250gr boolit.

[Whiterabbit]

I've tried a 250 grain wfn, and a 250 jacketed spitzer. Both loaded and chambered fine. I have no chronoed the jacketed load. The LBT WFN chronos at 1700 fps out of my handi with 18 grains of H110.

[nanuk]

250gr boolit at 1700fps sounds like a moose gun to me..... inside 150yds, I think it would be very effective

the old heavy 303 bullet wasn't much more than this

[Whiterabbit]

That's funny, I bought it to be a light fun rabbit gun. Might be more powerful than my 7x57 deer/pig rifle at 100 yards? Too funny. I paid less than half of what I paid for my mauser.

It was just a side barrel to goof around with, I bought to dang thing to be a slug gun. And I still havent found a slug that shoots worth a damn. And this 357 barrel is the most accurate one!

[JIMinPHX]

SB1 is the low pressure frame. I am not sure that the .357 max is allowable on that frame. I would check the H&R website to see what calibers are OK on that frame.

[Clark]

If I were to bet on if the SB1 could take a 50BMG or not, the smart money would be that it could.

It might not be smart to try it the first time next to your face, but it is more likely to be strong enough.

What do I know?

I have bought hundreds of guns to overload them, just to see what would happen.

Break action shotguns and rifles, and Ruger #1s are way up there at the top.
Many guns in between.
Break top iver Johnson revolvers with a #5 screw for a latch pin going through a round hole thin piece of sheet metal, are way down at the bottom.

Recently I turned an H&R 16 ga shotgun into a 50 cal rifle. I got a good look at it. I milled a lot of material out of the receiver to make room for the barrel. It would be tough to blowup.

[WilliamDahl]

Recently I turned an H&R 16 ga shotgun into a 50 cal rifle. I got a good look at it. I milled a lot of material out of the receiver to make room for the barrel. It would be tough to blowup.

Why did you choose the 16 gauge over perhaps a 12 gauge?

I have to think that a light H&R would kick like a mule if you put a .50BMG barrel on it.

[Goatwhiskers]

If I were to bet on if the SB1 could take a 50BMG or not, the smart money would be that it could.

It might not be smart to try it the first time next to your face, but it is more likely to be strong enough.

What do I know?

I have bought hundreds of guns to overload them, just to see what would happen.

Break action shotguns and rifles, and Ruger #1s are way up there at the top.
Many guns in between.
Break top iver Johnson revolvers with a #5 screw for a latch pin going through a round hole thin piece of sheet metal, are way down at the bottom.

Recently I turned an H&R 16 ga shotgun into a 50 cal rifle. I got a good look at it. I milled a lot of material out of the receiver to make room for the barrel. It would be tough to blowup.

The problem with the SB-1 frame is that it is cast malleable iron, not steel as is the SB-2. A steel frame with high pressure cartridges will give you some warning of pending problems, such as case stretching and separation, headspace problems, or barrel/frame stretching problems. A cast iron frame will NOT. It becomes a hand grenade going off next to your head. Your face and hands, your life, do what you think is right. GW

[Clark]

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/ClarkM/56-50shortenede4-7-2012small.jpg
http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/ClarkM/HRbreakaction9-17-2012.jpg

I think this is an SB1.
I got it it for $50 on 3-24-2012 with a pile of other junk guns.
I could load it up until the large Boxer primer pierces, but all I have here today is soft cast bullets.
Instead of cutting down the more expensive Green Mountain 50 cal barrel on the lathe, I milled out the cheaper receiver to take the bigger barrel. That was too much work. Next time I will just cut down the barrel.

I suppose I could make a 357 max insert and load it up this morning. I have the barrel blanks and reamers, but I am busy, and I know it would work.

[Goatwhiskers]

Take a look at the graybeard site, in the H&R forum there is a FAQ sticky, it has an excellent description w/pics so that you can know what kind of receiver you have. I'm done here. GW

[leftiye]

Since it is a Handi with lots of extra metal around that .378 dia. chamber, and since the .357 max. ctg. is straight walled, you could bore out the chamber a little, thread the hole, and screw in a sleeve (locktite it), then refinish with .357 or max. chamber reamer.

[leftiye]

My vote is - it's near insanity to consider the .50BMG in any form of handi. While they are a strong action, and probly stronger than stated, the 50 BMG has a rather huge headsize and is waay the otherside of the belted magnum headsize which no one usually considers for the Handi either. Then the RUMs and .416s etc. Then if it didn't blow up, the recoil would cripple you.

[nanuk]

clark:

how did you stick the barrel lug on???

[Clark]

Those are drilled and tapped.
I think that one is (4) 10-32