Mauser action question

[lead-1]

A friend of mine bought a Mauser 98 rifle that had been rebarreled. Well he put a scope on it, took it to the range couldn't get on paper with it, he asked me to try so I did and two shots at 15 yards missed the 100 yard sight in target completely.
I did the look at the target thru the bore then thru the scope and it wasn't close and the scope was out of windage adjustment, I looked over the mounts real close and also with a metal ruler and the front mount looked to be off center quite a bit.
The dealer he bought it from didn't act like he was too concerned and only wanted to sell him a set of 40 dollar Millet rings that he said was adjustable so they would straighten out the front rings that way.
I don't see how a set of Millet adjustable rings for a Ruger 77/22, 1, 3, Ruger 96/44, Ranch Redhawk are going to help a 2 piece Weaver mount set on a 98 Mauser.

Now enough with the story's setting, I have figured out what the real problem is, the action is twisted, when you shoulder the rifle you automatically line up the rear mount to your eye making the front mount look tilted toward 1 o'clock but actually the rear is twisted toward 11 o'clock.

Is it safe to twist the action back in line or will it stress the metal too much and make it unsafe to shoot, heck it has been shot a dozen times or so being twisted?

[smilie=b:

[lead-1]

Oh yeah, I removed the barreled action from the stock and it is definitely twisted.

[Reg]

You might be able to twist that action back into line but you had better know what you are doing and you had better be able to set it up on a surface plate and know when it is true. Then the action needs to be magna fluxed and possibly re-heat treated. Some scary business here. There are those who would say the action is junk. Best to be done by those with a good insurance policy.

[castaroo]

i would keep it parts and look for another one , remember you only get one life on this planet, your lonnng time dead and lifes too short to take risk with things like that

[Goatwhiskers]

Whoever did the rebarrel was an idiot, instead of an action wrench he stuck something thru the rails and twisted the action off the old barrel that way. Now you have to wonder what else the idiot did. As you can tell I have no patience with "Bubba". In my shop that action would be scrap, not worth what it would cost to attempt to repair and still not know what you have. Tell your bud to buy another gun and learn a life's lesson, also I wouldn't buy another from that shop, too interested in making more money. Here endeth the epistle. GW

[gnoahhh]

Amen!

[flounderman]

the safe part shouldn't be a problem because it locks inside the front receiver ring. It's twisted behind where it locks. the thinnest part of the mauser is the thumb cut in the sidewall just ahead of the back bridge. You can probably use a redfield two piece base and get adjustment enough, you probably can shim enough to get the scope on target with the mount you have. You could make a tapered shim and slip it under the base at the rear and if that don't do it, do the same on the front on the opposite side. You can shim inside the rings, and I believe Bushnell has some type of adjustable ring system. I think it is an insert with the hole offset. It isn't a major problem to get the scope pointing at the target.

[Goatwhiskers]

Flounderman, no offense taken here. You are right in that the situation can probably be salvaged, my point was that when someone starts out doing a gunsmith job the wrong way, there is no telling what else the idiot may have taken a shortcut on. In my shop for the last 40yrs it's the right way, the safe way, or take it down the highway, no exceptions. GW

[Ben]

How much is your life worth to you ? ?

[leftiye]

So proof test it. I agree that the action is probly not weakened, but make sure. Support the reciever ring in an action wrench, depending on where the twisting is, insert idiot bar and reverse it, or not. As noted redfield, leupold, burris rings will probly allow enough scope lateral movement to sight in with scope reticle near centered (without straightening). You didn't mention the chambering (caliber). If it is chambered in an 06 headsize caliber, a 98 Mauser should have strength and to spare.

[Pavogrande]

Several of you have indicated doomsday consequences in using this weapon - Why?
What major failure are you predicting ?

I certainly respect the old goats disdain of such poor workmanship but see no reason to scrap the weapon when it can be fixed or at least made usable.

I do feel flounderman is on the mark with his analysis -- poor job but not a hazard to life and limb.

I suspect the doomsdayers would also be very critical of shortening a mauser action by cutting it at the clip slot and welding it back together --

If I remember correctly 98 military receivers are simple carbon steel and heat treated from the inside out - that is, a flame is passed through the interior front to back.
Point being the rails and bridge are not hardened by need but by the process.
My tuppence

[swheeler]

If it is indeed twisted the trigger should be rubbing the triggerguard, magazine box will not set even to bottom of the action and when you tighten the rear screw you will be applying unwanted stress into the reciever. That being said it cannot ever shoot as good as it should, but as far as safe from failure, I doubt there is a problem, the front reciever ring and lugs are not affected.

[Reg]

Your man could just try to take it back from whomever he bought it from. Might learn something about the veracity of the seller !!!! Unless of course he ( the owner ) had something to do with the state that action is in.

[lead-1]

It is redone in .308 Winchester and the trigger does indeed rub the trigger guard where it comes out of the stock. I think that the front hole in the stock has been opened up a bit to allow the bolts to hold the trigger guard and receiver together and we have shot it a few times but before we knew what was wrong.
I have a rifle this guy built in .25-06 and it is swell, decent fit and finish and none of this hokie stuff going on.
I was curious as to twisting it back because of the bolt locking in the receiver and the twist being well behind the locking action, I thank everyone for their input. I had to take my Dad to the hospital again today or I would've taken it back to the shop where it was purchased to see what the dealer had to say. By the way my friend that owns it lives and works in another town so I'm kind of his go between on the situation.

[Houndog]

I'm with Goatwhiskers on this one! You PROBABLY could fix the bubba'd up mess, but by the time you made a surface plate, a bolt guide to keep the raceways straight, had the thing checked for cracks after you get it back in square and re heat treated, (MANDATORY IN MY BOOK) you could purchase a NEW rifle with all the updated mods and save money! Take his(and my) advice! Buy another rifle and start again! You'll save money in the long run!

[Ben]

lead-1

If I were about to build a rifle and knew the details of this one, there is no way this rifle would rest in my safe.

The cost of a good 98' action vs. this one for a build.Nope, I don't think so !

Do yourself a favor, if you'd like to build a rifle or get this one back in service, fine a nice , clean 98' Mauser action and do it RIGHT ! This one will cost a small fortune ( and may still not be RIGHT when the work is done ) to correct all its ills.
_________________

Pavogrande

Yes , I do lean in the direction of safety on issues of this nature. Last time I checked that made very good sense.

50,000 psi in front of my face needs to be in something that I have great confidence in.

Ben

[MBTcustom]

Whoever did the rebarrel was an idiot, instead of an action wrench he stuck something thru the rails and twisted the action off the old barrel that way
Wow! I read the original post and I was thinking to myself "How in the name of all that is holy, do you twist a Mauser action?" The answer is both simple and shocking. Just WOW.:groner:
Bubba didn't just stop at fowling it up this time, he freaking killed it!
Good work bubba wherever you are, you saved yourself the cost of a wrench.[smilie=b:
Which way was it twisted? Did the sucker even know about "lefty-loosy righty-tighty"? That would be the icing on the cake.
Ditch the action and save the barrel, bolt and stock. Then again, check that bolt real careful, If the same dude turned the bolt handle, he may have jacked that up as well.[smilie=b:
Bad luck buddy, sorry you got a lemon.

[Pavogrande]

Ben -- certainly your choice and not defending the screw up, but, you did not say what disaster you felt was going to happen. Do you expect the lugs to fail? the receiver ring to fail?
Given the advertsion to a "risk" factor why even use a 60 to 100 year old action to begin with --
Just go buy a new weapon.

[Ben]

Ben -- certainly your choice and not defending the screw up, but, you did not say what disaster you felt was going to happen. Do you expect the lugs to fail? the receiver ring to fail?
Given the advertsion to a "risk" factor why even use a 60 to 100 year old action to begin with --
Just go buy a new weapon.

Just go buy a new weapon - - - - I agree.

It isn't important that one be able to forecast exactly where this one would fail. Stress fractures can and will occur to actions that are abused in this manner. They will most likely be invisible to the eye. An action like this could fail on the 1st round or the 760 th round. No one knows ? ?

If I have 4 bald tires on my car, I'm driving my family in a very dangerous vehicle. Do I need to know exactly which tire is going to fail 1st , or do I need to remedy a dangerous situation immediately ( by replacing all the tires with new tires ) BEFORE tragedy strikes ?

This particular action has clearly been subjected to a tremendous amount of abuse. I could never place full confidence in this action in the future. These are my views , someone else may see it all quite differently.

Ben

[Milsurp Junkie]

If you are interested in recouping some of the costs, I would be interested in purchasing the barrel, as I have a 98 Mauser action that is in need of a barrel. PM me if interested.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I'm going to break with the majority on this one. This action could be easily fixed.

First Mausers are case hardened. They are only hard about.010-.015 deep. The interior is soft which is why the thing didn't break into pieces when the original infraction occured.

Second the strength of this action has not been compromised in the slightest. The lock up is in the front Receiver Ring and you could literally cut the action off behind it and it wouldn't affect the breaching strength in the slightest.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't have a really good look at it under a 10x magnifier looking for cracks(which probably were there before Bubba got involved.) You should do that as a matter of course working on any gun.

All you have to do is get ahold of the front ring preferably with the barrel installed, and an action wrench on the rear ring and start twisting it back the way it came. This is unless there are obvious areas where the tweaks are eveident, in which case the problem gets more complicated, but still doable. You may have to tweak it in sections

As far as how much,,,, Well,,,, I said "it could be done easily." I didn't say,,, "it could be easily done by anyone." This fix will require a bit of finese and unless you have that finese firmly in hand then this could be classified as a practice project.

This is not a pay a gunsmith to do it type of project I doubt it is worth doing

You will have to tweak it until you are satisfied that the bolt races are strait. Also you have a better chance of getting it back to original if the thing is twisted evenly, as opposed being twisted a little down the rails and then more at the thumb cutout.

either way it will be a trial and error type of project and you better bring your patience.

Next you have to decide if all of this is worth the effort, and in the end will you have confidence in the action at all. Most here wouldn't,,, And there is nothing wrong with that view.

I just tend to view the project from the perspective of pushing metal around for 35 years, and whereas I could do this, I can't speak to others abilities.

If this action had a quarter turn on it then I would say frame it and forget it, but a slight twist of a couple of degrees is something I could fix in a few minutes. And would never look back.

My .02

Randy

[MBTcustom]

I want to agree with you Randy, Honest. But the fact of the matter is that case hardened steel is not supposed to be bent in this way, and bending it back could make the microscopic fractures even worse.
What you say is true about the business end of the action being in front of the lugs, but that area could very well have been compromised as well.
It could very well be that there is only a 10% chance that the front of the action was compromised, but come on! I don't want to be the guy snuggling up nice and close to a piece like this and giving it a good 50,000PSI while I try to remain as relaxed as possible. That's worse than "pull my finger son".
You are a craftsman, as am I, and we are used to there always being a margin for error and acceptable tolerances of strength, but right now what the guy has is an unknown variable. This stuff is dangerous. The second you don't respect it it could maim you for life. Call me paranoid, but I wouldn't pull the trigger on that gun unless it was x-rayed and tested in a safe environment.
The right way to fix it is to fully anneal it, bend it back strait, and then reharden it and put it through a draw cycle, followed by x-ray and proof testing. Anything else is a roll of the dice.
At the very least, I would stack up some full house (or possibly over powdered) cartridges, and pull the trigger with a string from a safe distance. I have done this myself, and I never really got a fuzzy feeling of safety from that rifle until I did more research and found more information that convinced me that I was just fine with the caliber I had changed the rifle to.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Tim: I said "I" could fix it. I didn't recommend he should.

What microscopic fractures are you talking about? 2 degrees of twist in relatively soft steel is not going to fracture anything. If it was thru hardened to a high Rc number then maybe, but you wouldn't be twisting it very easily either.

Your assessment of the heat treat on that action is not entirely accurate. When that action was made they packed a bunch of actions into a bucket of carbon and heated the whole thing up till it was red hot and then let it sit til it cooled or dumped the whole mess into a bucket of water. That was the good ones, if the gun was made by slave labor who knows.

It can be a problem to anneal an older action and reharden it. First, you don't know what kind of material it is made out of. I have several books on Mausers, none of them know what it was for sure. They are all just guessing as the Germans were not really divulging their materials choices during WWII. guns made for them elsewhere were even more questionable.

Things are much different now, and the process can be controlled much better, but you still need to know what kind of material you are dealing with because what you do to case harden 4130 is not the same as what you do for other types of steel. IN fact I would doubt you would even consider case hardening 4130 as you could easily heat treat it anywhere from Rc 48 -56 or 120,000 to 180,000 psi, all of which would be much stronger in every way than the originals.

We are talking about twisting this action maybe 2 degrees. Did it induce some new stress into the part,,, Yes.

But the amount that is actually present is so small it is not worth talking about, and twisting it back , even if it doubled the induced stress, is still so minute it is negligable. Now if you twisted it 45 degrees, that's a whole nother story. You probably wouldn't recover from that .

That said, I wouldn't be converting it to .300 Weatherby either. However .45 ACP is still viable.

I have a Turkish Mauser and its receiver is so soft I can file it easily. Which leads me to believe it is not heat treated at all! And yet it fired who knows how many 8x57's which are comparable to .308s pressure wise. Turks in the early 1900's weren't exactly cutting edge manufacturers, and even with German supervision I doubt they were even close to as good as real German guns.

Hell the German guy who was supervising the manufacturing in prewar Turkey was probably so pissed that he had been exiled to that dump, that he probably didn't give a ship one way or another. And really how could you blame him, if a gun blew up in some poor turk peons face, who cared,,, "plenty more where they came from."

If it was made from 1018 (cheapest stuff there is) the tensile strength is 60K psi. If it is made of 1018 and case hardened it is still only 60K psi, as the case doesn't add anything significant to the tensile strength, it just makes the parts slide easier.

If the case was .060 deep now we are adding to the strength, but the whole idea of the .010-.015 case is so they still have a soft internal structure for toughness. And no brittleness which is why they didn't thru harden them in the first place. Another point may be that they were made of soft material in the first place and just case hardened because you can't thru harden 1018 anyway, you have to case it.

If the action was made from some kind of Cro Moly or other simple alloy steel then the tensile will easily be above 90K psi which is strong enough without any heat treat to contain pretty much any normal rifle round.

All of this is just speculation as no one really knows what this gun was made out of. My point is that most people wouldn't try to fix this action because of the unknowns. That doesn't mean it couldn't be a serviceable gun with just a little judicious force being applyed.

You've kind of got to be able to assess whether or not you have hurt the thing after you mess with it.

I'm not bad at that. However if I was a gunsmith I probably wouldn't touch this job for two reasons. First the liability, and second there ain't no money in it. You could also say "Just cuz it can be done, doesn't mean it should be done."

Like the guy here says " it's all an educated guess until you pull the trigger."

Here's one final thought,,, If we were in a TEOTWAWKI situation would you try to fix it then? Bet you would.

Randy

[MBTcustom]

Of course, I postulate these things without having seen the action. It may be possible, but all my experience as a blacksmith/machinist/gunsmith is saying that I would give this one a wide berth even if it was my grandpa's gun. I would be much more inclined to leave it as is then try to bend it back. I would probably go get some gunsmith mounts and drill and tap new holes for a new mount and install it so that it covers the originals and let it ride. Its bad enough that it was bent once, bending it again is just as bad for the action as the original sin. It will make it weaker.
Also, its not that hard to re temper one of these babies if you know what you are doing. Many of us, send it off to be retempered as a matter of course when building it into a magnum of some sort, just to be sure all is well, because like you pointed out, they didn't exactly fall on their sword if everything wasn't done just right, and you never really know what you're going to get with one of these.
All of the low grade carbon steels are very similar in their heat treating requirements.

[lead-1]

I took it to the dealer that sold it today and showed him the problem, he is going to take it up with the guy who built it and we will see what happens from there.
Just have to sit on our hands now and wait. I feel bad because I gave the rifle a lookover in the shop and didn't see any problems so I told my friend it should be a good rifle so he bought it. I even have a nice shooting rifle built by the same guy but I feel like I mislead my friend into buying it.

[justashooter]

Several of you have indicated doomsday consequences in using this weapon - Why?
What major failure are you predicting ?

I certainly respect the old goats disdain of such poor workmanship but see no reason to scrap the weapon when it can be fixed or at least made usable.



from a metals manufacturing quality assurance background i agree that a twisted action is not a bomb. some dolt did not have the right tools for rebarreling. it should be repairable if a suitable mandrel is inserted during correction. no need to magnaflux or such.

a BHN reading of the receiver ring would be more indicative of the action's strength. if german, then 1090 with carburising. if czech, then 4140 or 4340. if swede or belgian, same as czech. target BHN on german by king brinnel would be 180-190 on an area of lower surface that had been reduced by 0.20" to eliminate the surface hardening. target on others would be 230-240. rockwell would be deceiving if german, and not exacting in this range, anyway.

[MBTcustom]

I feel bad because I gave the rifle a lookover in the shop and didn't see any problems so I told my friend it should be a good rifle so he bought it. I even have a nice shooting rifle built by the same guy but I feel like I mislead my friend into buying it.

You didn't mislead anybody. The guy that messed up the rifle did.
It can probably be fixed. I'm glad you didn't stick the handle of a pipe wrench in there and give it what for.
Perhaps I'm overcautious on things like this, I'm glad that you were able to get those folks involved.
If you end up being stuck with it, then go from there. Maybe you could post up some pictures when you get it back.

[lead-1]

Guess that I forgot to come in here and give what update I can, the builder is working with the owner on this matter. It almost sounds like the builder is going to replace the receiver, I will know more when the guy who bought it gets it back.
I am at least glad that the rifle is going to be made right.