Is this even legal?

[Smithy]

I've been looking at the Howdah pistols in various caliber combinations, from Cabela's and on line. During one such search I came across a double 58 caliber that took 209 primers. Looking closer at the pictures I realized what exactly it was (or should I say, use to be). It started life out as a cartridge firing 12 gauge shotgun. The barrels had been sleeved to 58 caliber and the breech end was plugged and machined for 209 primers. The action opened normally but that only allowed the removal and insertion of 209 primers. The barrels had been cut to 9.5" and the stock whittled down to a rounded pistol grip. The gun had external hammers. It came out looking really neat. It was indeed now permanently a muzzle loading firearm, but since it started life out as a normal cartridge firing 12 gauge, would someone or some entity still look at it as a sawed off shotgun? Very curious because I want one. Smithy.

[Plinkster]

I would bet the factory doing the work also does the paperwork to make it square with the BATFE. And if Cabela's is selling it you can bet it's legal. If its some guy on Craigslist, well...

[1Shirt]

Interesting thread! Have seen one of them, and for the life of me, can not see why anybody would want one, or what use it would be other than a wall hanger.
Just my opinion!
1Shirt!

[Smithy]

I would bet the factory doing the work also does the paperwork to make it square with the BATFE. And if Cabela's is selling it you can bet it's legal. If its some guy on Craigslist, well...

NO, it was being sold on "Guns America" and Cabela's has nothing to do with it. A total home brew project.


Interesting thread! Have seen one of them, and for the life of me, can not see why anybody would want one, or what use it would be other than a wall hanger.
Just my opinion!
1Shirt!

Well as I said in my OP, I Want One!! I had that though some years back, but was too chicken to ask, afraid they'd say NO and have my number. The reason is the steel receiver and the 209 priming, much like the current Encore muzzle loaders. If I had a Howdah pistol (or close copy) I'd prefer the "made from a shotgun" vs. the one's available from Cabela's. Not only the steel receiver and 209 primers, it would be very easy to detach the barrels for a thorough cleaning. And most important, It would look cool!! Smithy.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Are the barrels rifled? If so I believe it would be treated as any other C&B pistol. If it is a smoothbore I don't think that is legal because the 209 primer system falls into a "modern ignition" group of muzzle loaders which would require at least an 18" barrel.

Funny how the BATFE is way more concerned about muzzle loaders then truck loads of full autos headed south.

[rockrat]

I would get ahold of BATFE and ask. It might still be considered a sawed off shotgun, as that is what it started as in life. Now, if the sleves have been welded in permanently, it might be OK.

[Smithy]

209 primer system falls into a "modern ignition" group of muzzle loaders which would require at least an 18" barrel.

This I did not know as (a long time ago in a land far away that I don't remember at all) I was aware of making an Encore 50 cal pistol. It shot like a dream, but I guess I do remember not seeing any BP pistol barrels available for the Encore? It's a good thing that you can pop on a nice 22LR barrel isn't it?

Maybe I'll just steer clear and keep my nose clean. Folks have even tried to scare me telling me that there are bore limitations to black powder cannon. Now I'm not sure if that was in reference to Federal or California law, but I've never heard of it and If guy's can lob bowling balls and be OK then my little golf ball mortars/cannon should be AOK. My latest Thunder Mug is being built out of really thick stuff and the maker said the powder chamber will hold 2000 grains. Wow! It's being proof tested with 5000 grains and then getting magnafluxed (or basically xray'd for cracks and flaws) afterwards. That'll be a ground thumper for sure. No need to get in a bind with questionable shotgun/pistol/black powder/unknown items that BATFE might have an interest in. Smithy.

[John Taylor]

Best to talk with BATF when there is a question about a firearm. My understanding is that the gun no longer uses fixed ammunition and therefor is not a problem. Once the gun is made so it can no longer use fixed ammo it comes under a different law, does not matter what primmer is used. Some state laws will not allow it to be used for primitive hunting during that season because of the 209 primer. In Washington State it would be considered an " Antique firearm" because it does not use fixed ammo.
Was just looking at the law and it has been reworded in a way that makes the 1898 rule read different. Now if you have a 1894 Winchester that was made in 1895 in 30-30 it is no longer an antique, because ammo is available for it. Funny how the government changes the rules without letting anyone hear about it.

[Gliden07]

[QUOTE= Funny how the government changes the rules without letting anyone hear about it.[/QUOTE]

Thats so they can use the ole "Ignorance of the Law is no excuse" and that its your responsability to know the law. That translates into dollars for the state everytime!! :x

[TCLouis]

Encore and Contender both have BP "pistol" length barrels available

[2152hq]

I'm almost positive the 209 priming system takes the firearm out of any 'antique' status the Fed' may have granted for muzzle loaders. Seems that was decided a couple of years ago with the popularity of that.

Best to check with BATF Technology Branch for a clear answer on that and the legality of the conversion. I have a feeling the cut down shotgun and 209 primer makes it an NFA.

[Smithy]

I'll deny this later and will NOT tell the dealer where it happened and the gun has long since been paperized. I was in one of my black powder modes and wanted an Encore pistol in 50 caliber. Things done with the contender way back when had long since been erased and changed forever. As the days of barrel swapping with the contender got changed to if you buy a frame you had to declare what it was to become, a pistol or a rifle. After that was done you could not swap around without coming into trouble with NFA regulations. As a part of that there were NO black powder pistol barrels for the 209 Encore action.

Simple, I'd buy a rifle and cut the barrel, buy a pistol grip and you bet I'd have a 50 caliber black powder pistol. Well I had my local dealer order me an appropriate 50 caliber Encore rifle. The dealership called and said my gun was in (I had already paid for it). I went into the shop and was handed the gun and told politely "Thanks for your business". I asked is there some kind of paperwork and waiting period? (living in California) And was told "Nope, that there is a black powder firearm so NO paperwork at all". I asked "Are you sure?". Again I was told "Nope it's a black powder firearm so there is no paperwork". I could have put any barrel on it I wanted, because DOJ would have absolutely NO paper trail whatsoever. And would have been let go figuring it was bought prior to legislation.

It did make me nervous the whole time I had it and eventually sold the gun. Smithy.

[mazo kid]

Just my opinion so take it for that....in-line rifles (even though I have no use for them) use 209 shotgun primers and they are muzzle loaders, no paper work needed. A few years ago, IIRC, that was not the case, but has since been changed by BATFE.

[PS Paul]

Thats so they can use the ole "Ignorance of the Law is no excuse" and that its your responsability to know the law. That translates into dollars for the state everytime!! :x
How right you are!! As a dealer in WA, we just got a letter this week about releasing guns to LEO's from an RCW law enacted several YEARS ago! Still, the libtards in Olympia (our state capitol) just keep breathing the same idiotic exhaust they've been spwein' for decades. Corrupt as can be and it seems EVERY opportunity to fleece the public is taken. They just cannot get ENOUGH money to squander out here in libtard utopia!!

[gunseller]

Just got to this thread. Is there still barrels that can be put on the frame so it can shoot shot shells? If so it is a sawed of shotgun and needs a tax stamp. In line muzzle loaders that can not have a barrel changed to fire cartridges are ML. ML that can have barrels changed like Encores are rifles and there are barrel leinghts and over all leignths that they need to be. Other wise they aree short barreled firearms and feds get real excited. As much fun as this would be there are things that I have missed or not stated that might get you a gray bar room. The part about it being on GB is a bad sign for me. As at one time the rules were once a fire always a fire arm unless the reciver was torch cut by BATF rules.
Steve

[Mooseman]

Let me see if I can explain it.
IF a barrel is rifled and chambered for say.45 colt/410 shotgun it is legal in less than 18 inches for a pistol.
If a barrel is smoothebore and chambered for a rifle cartridge like 45-70 it is legal in less than 16 inches for a shoulder stocked weapon.(it is not considered a rifle if there is no rifling)
Converting a shotgun barrel to a lined muzzleloading rifle barrel may or may not be legal depending on the BATFE officer you talk to. It would be a question for the Chief at the technology branch of BATFE.

My 13 inch barreled early H&R USN Linethrower in 45-70 was confiscated By BATFE however it being a smoothebore chambered for a rifle cartridge has been determined to be LEGAL. It is a Curio / oddity in the gun world.

[Smithy]

As at one time the rules were once a fire always a fire arm unless the reciver was torch cut by BATF rules.

So true, but let's talk about the Encore. I believe that it should always be considered a handgun for registration purposes, including age requirements and such. Why? because it always CAN be made into one. So I feel that the dealer that considered a TC Encore just a simple muzzle loader, might well have been in error. That's why I'm glad I sold it to a dealer so paper could exclude me from having an unregistered firearm. Now if I'm wrong, well I guess I'm wrong, but I don't like standing on the fence and hoping that the man of the hour decides that I haven't or have stepped over.

That's why I stayed away from the AR series of rifles. Even the other offerings that use the AR platform, like a real powerful crossbow (yes I said crossbow) and the 50 Beowulf. I really could not tell you what is/is not legal in that department especially here in California. I also got a little nervous buying and selling a cartridge converted cylinder for my ROA's. Asking on Different, but similar site's, I got as many opinions as there were members. Letting LEA or the courts decide which way it is is no way to go.

I'd rather just keep my guns than have to go to court and ask for them back. Smithy.

[Geraldo]

First, if you call ATF three different times you'll probably get three different opinions.

Second, the ability to use 209 primers does not make a ML into a modern firearm. A frame (such as the Encore) that will take CF or RF barrels IS a modern firearm. It has nothing to do with ignition and everything to do with what else you can put on the frame.

Three, OK, let's talk about Encores/Contenders. As it comes from the factory it is a rifle or pistol depending on the barrel. Swapping barrels is where it gets sticky. Here's an article by Mike Bellm and and ATF response.

http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=239

If you're going to have rifle and pistol barrels, it's best to have frames considered rifle and pistol and not interchange the two.

[2152hq]

This is what is under the NFA definition of antique firearm:

Q: What qualifies as an antique firearm?
As defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(16) the term “antique firearm” means —

…
any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica —
is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term ‘antique firearm’ shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon, which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.
ATF has previously determined that certain muzzle loading models are firearms and subject to the provisions of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA). All of these guns incorporate the frame or receiver of a firearm that is capable of accepting other barrels designed to fire conventional rimfire or centerfire fixed ammunition. Therefore, these muzzle loading models do not meet the definition of “antique firearm” as that term is defined in the above-cited § 921(a)(16) and are “firearms” as defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)

Furthermore, as firearms, the models described above, as well as other similar models, regardless of installed barrel type, are subject to all provisions of the GCA. Persons who purchase these firearms from licensed dealers are required to fill out ATF Form 4473 and are subject to a National Instant Background Check System (NICS) check. Convicted felons and certain other persons are prohibited from receiving and possessing these firearms.

[NoZombies]

Let me see if I can explain it.
IF a barrel is rifled and chambered for say.45 colt/410 shotgun it is legal in less than 18 inches for a pistol.
If a barrel is smoothebore and chambered for a rifle cartridge like 45-70 it is legal in less than 16 inches for a shoulder stocked weapon.(it is not considered a rifle if there is no rifling)
Converting a shotgun barrel to a lined muzzleloading rifle barrel may or may not be legal depending on the BATFE officer you talk to. It would be a question for the Chief at the technology branch of BATFE.

My 13 inch barreled early H&R USN Linethrower in 45-70 was confiscated By BATFE however it being a smoothebore chambered for a rifle cartridge has been determined to be LEGAL. It is a Curio / oddity in the gun world.

Actually, Your gun is legal because it, specifically, is a Curio or Oddity. The tech branch of the ATF maintains a list of what qualifies. The gun you mention is specifically named on that list. What you said in the first paragraph could get someone in a lot of trouble, as manufacturing such a thing would be the manufacture of an NFA weapon.

(I'm not saying I agree with the laws, as I find them ridiculous, but ignorance of them is not a defensible position in a court of law)

[Spector]

In this case I would definitely contact BATF before a purchase.

I do not believe muzzle-loaders designed to take 209 primers require federal paperwork as do other firearms, but may be worng about that as I have never purchased one.

If the last thing that was done in the conversion of this shotgun was to cut the barrels below 18'' then the process may possibly be legal.

Still I'd let BATF advise in writting before I would consider purchasing it......Mike