Rifle OAL - What amount of engraving is desired? (NOE 311-165 in 30WCF)

[Dannix]

So I'm at long last loading up NOE's RD 311-165-GC in my 30-30, my début into boolits for rifles.

I arbitrarily seated it to 2.525" OAL and chambered it to see the results. Is the pictured amount of rifling/engraving desired, or should I go a bit shorter or perhaps even longer?

Gun: Sears Mod 54 (Win 1894 30-30)
Alloy: Right now, playing with 95/2.5/2.5 aircooled

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_11153504524f73c575.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6536)
Side note: Engraving on nose due to Hornady Seater Die plug design. Please discuss that aspect here: Custom Plug for Hornady Seater Die? (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=164110)

[caseyboy]

How does it chamber? Easily? What is the OAL? Are you close to max? If it were me, and it seated easily and it is under the max length, I would seat it out a bit further. How does it shoot now? Do a comparison with seating depth now and a bit longer. The gun will tell you what it likes.

[popper]

95/2.5/2.5 AC. That's OK. You can add some shot and HT if harder is needed. Seat longer, until the lever won't close, back off a hair, make sure it feeds OK. Probably need the FCD if you don't crimp in the groove, crimp is to prevent setback in the tube. You could get a flat seater plug but I don't worry about it, it is symmetrical.

[runfiverun]

thats pretty good.
i like to just feel it seat as i snick the lever closed slowly.
there is a balance here.
if you need a fast follow-up shot when hunting,or need to de-chamber the round.
it has to be both ways.
i go out as far as i can get away with..... comfortably.

[Dannix]

Thanks for the input. Max as per Lee2ndEd (nearest manual right now) is 2.550, so this is nowhere near max manual OAL.

It took a bit of effort, not too greatly at all, to get it to chamber. It was certainly no drop in chamber test like we would do with j-words. It ejected readily too, so while I may tweak the OAL a bit, I'll likely keep it quite close to what it is now, but I'll re-read the thread the next time I load up a dummy to nail the OAL down.

Thanks again.

Oh, and I'm also going to try 50PB/50WW WDed, since that is what I'm using for 9mm. Any red flags with that route for 30-30?

I'm still torn between 4198 for a mild 19xx fps load, or going with 4895 or 748 for 2000+fps loads. Choices, choices. I already have the powders on hand, so I may try them all. Lube is Randy's Tac#1.

[geargnasher]

That alloy will be absolutely perfect IMO.

Your "dummy" looks just fine, too, I strive for exactly that amount of engraving with that boolit in my Marlin 336. Difference is, my throat is very long and worn, so I can actually roll the case mouth just under the edge of the second "band", in the first lube groove. This ensures no "telescoping" in the magazine since I hunt pigs/deer with mine and the ammo must be reliable You can single-load those for bench work, and when you get them shooting well you can worry about the crimp groove lining up later.

4198 is excellent, so is Reloder 7 for "midrange" loads, which are plenty for most shooting. If you want to go all the way, like 2100 FPS+, WW748 is THE go-to powder in my book with 18" levergun barrels.

Gear

[Dannix]

Thanks, Gear. You and 45 2.1 where the ones to get me started on 50/50WDed. Thanks for the tip. (Oh, and my alloy thanks you as well. With proper pre-heat, my Miha 9mm HP ran just fine with 735F alloy vs the 800+F I initially tried.)

I'll be crimping with the Lee collet FCD, rather than keeping the final product uncrimped, so I'm not too worried about "telescoping".

Thanks for the comment about powders. I'll be sure to watch out for any rusting with the 748. (Tac#1 contains carnauba.)

[popper]

I'm using the same mould with LeverR powder in 30-30. I dropped the tin from my alloy (~98/2/0) fillout is fine. 140 rnds yesterday and results were great in MG marlin. Checked the bbl this morning, I'm not even going to bother cleaning it - no lead, no powder residue.

[runfiverun]

woa back that crimp thing up.
you don't have a crimp groove available for the case mouth,and just squishing one in will leave you wondering where that lead in the bbl come from and where the accuracy went.

[Larry Gibson]

Gun: Sears Mod 54 (Win 1894 30-30)

Runfiverun is quite correct. The "dummy" round does not look "just fine" for that rifle unless you are single loading only, then the oal is ok. However, if you stick 5 - 7 rounds in the magazine the spring tension alone may push the bullets deeper into the cases. This can cause feed and increased psi problems. Also the recoil from the load can do likewise. Suggest you might just want to seat the bullet to that crimp groove and put a medium roll crimp in the case mouth for use with that rifle if you are going to load the magazine tube.

Larry Gibson

[popper]

I seat maybe .02" deeper than the pic and FCD to remove the flare. Just barely into the crimp groove. No setback in the tube that I measure. Don't worry about the seater plug ring, it is uniform and doesn't cause a problem. With that alloy and the standard Hornady die set, you will have enough neck tension. Do you just flare or use an M style expander plug?
50PB/50WW WDed Works fine.

[williamwaco]

Five and Larry are correct.

I would like to add that in some cases the amount of engraving desired is NONE.

Both my cast bullet rifles are single shots so I don't have to worry about recoil pushing the bullet into the case but testing shows me that some bullets like to be engraved a little and others seriously object to being engraved.

The only way to know for sure is to do accuracy testing with and without engraving. If I want it engraved, it usually shows about 1/8th to 1/16th inch.


.

[Dannix]

Thanks for the comments, all.

Using the solid Lyman M expander plug. This one is actually not a custom one, but the die designed for .303 British j-word loads i.e. 31R (http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_LymanMDies.htm) . Boolits are being sized to .311.


Regarding crimp, I suppose the solution is to trim this batch of brass until it can be crimped "just under the edge of the second "band", in the first lube groove"?

[runfiverun]

try some un crimped.
shoot them singly at first making sure they chamber and de-chamber.
then put a couple in the tube watching foe telescoping.
the crimp is there to stop the boolit from being shoved into the case during chambering and under recoil.
neck tension might be enough to stop this from happening.
it is in the auto pistol rounds.
and you have a lot of neck there.
try seating a dozen or so to the crimp groove and comparing them to the non crimp groove seated ones.
this will give you even more neck tension to hold the boolits and can affect the load.
you'll just have to try a couple of things,and see what works best for you.

[popper]

I'm sizing to .311, using the 31R plug and FCD crimp with no problems in 30-30. I size .310 using the 30 plug and FCD on the front drive band in 308 AR. Only time I have a problem is when the round hits the mag lip and pushes back. No recoil setback in either gun. You could use the crimp die to just touch the brass and remove any bell, just like using a taper crimp (what I did before I got the FCD). I do watch for reduced neck tension when loading - too easy and I dump the powder and try another.